Combat experiences of our immediate neighbours.
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Of course I will... too, but not to gain experience.Originally posted by foxtrout8:Most of us should be in the front line.......
To defend.. -
People who are rock dumb but act as if they had any sort of reason to justify the things they believe never fail to push buttons here.
I believe the bottom line should be, if you know nothing much about what you are talking about, you better not say it, much less insist on it. And that's what this joker is doing here... in every incident from PT-91 to Mog. to Seawolf SAMs, this individual has demostrated a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter choosing to take the baby-food facts that his govt. has fed him, and of course they will be contradicted.
But at the very least he should exercise his sense of logic and bother to see the facts as they really are, and that is his Malaysian "armed" forces are not anywhere near as good as they crack themselves out to be. What seems to be the case here is, utter hyprocitical behaviour. He laughs at the people who died in Courageous (even saying these women deserved to die), but gets angry when we mention that johnny english pilot. And everytime he's in a fix to justify his points, his basic line of argument (which is almost always false is
"My OFFICAL govt. report says so, so that's it"
"You are no better yourself"
"At least I am better then you"
Now, are any of these threads or response or reasoning indicative of a working logic center, or is it just a person who knows nuts but goes into "bring it on" mode whenever people simply state the facts. This is one joker who deserves to be flamed and rightly so, if he can't be bothered to be civil enough to at least engage people here in decent conversation instead of basically posting things that are "malaysia boleh, you better agree if not I'll bring you on a merry go round of infantile insults and arguments."
And of course, when he has nothing to say because the logic is overwhelming, he either stonewalls or makes sweeping, baseless statements like "you are not fit to debate with me" WITHOUT EVEN BOTHERING TO ADDRESS THE TONS OF INFORMATION PUT OUT IN CONTRAY TO HIS WEAK-MINDED VIEWS.
I think the general level of competency and maturity in this forum is far above people like him, and I don't see why we have to tolerate his nonsense everytime he come in here to promote his bucket organization. My suggestion is, when he gets boleh, we send him balick kumpong -
Oh yes Innocent Malaysian, you have not replied to my gaunlet. So automatically, we'll take it as a yes to all the questions.
Thank you for your time and effort to prove you have basic intelligence and reasoning skills (or lack of it) -
I'm interested.. possible to post it? Sure would like to know the result..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:To say the RSAF screw up even more is not accucrate, do you need me to post the list of Malaysia armed forces screw ups and then compare them to the list of SAF screw ups?
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Why dun we all make a list? We post everything we can remember from both sides...
Innocent malaysian is welcome to try, if he dares to see the result.
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i think he is refering to the collision of 2 f-16As back in the early 90s over south china sea....... 1 was lost and 1 limped back to tengah and was subsquently repaired........ widely documented...... what also seems to be interesting is that we replaced the lost A with 2Cs........Originally posted by Typhoon:One of them was being piloted by an American.
Still, our attrition rate is much lower than yours. RMAF Hawk crashes are a forthnightly affair.
as for the hawks, they have lost a substantial number over the years............is it due to poor maintainence or the plane design? the whole world wonders........ -
Well... At least SAF is transparent enough. When something happens, and its the fault of a Human, SAF admits it. Look at the recent RSS Courageous case. I was quite appalled when RSN revealed the name of the person who is supposedly at fault!
MAF? "Official" and everyone believes it. Even if it sounds so ridiculous. I do not understand how a person wearing an officer uniform can enter the armoury and drive away with so much arms unhindered. What are the guards smoking? I won't even mention RMAF incidents.
InnocentMalaysian, like SingaporeTyrannosaur posted earlier, can you justify all of the incidents that have been stated? -
Hawks have a good reputation world wide. In fact it seems that most of the Hawk's black marks were caused by the malaysians!Originally posted by kanzer:i think he is refering to the collision of 2 f-16As back in the early 90s over south china sea....... 1 was lost and 1 limped back to tengah and was subsquently repaired........ widely documented...... what also seems to be interesting is that we replaced the lost A with 2Cs........
as for the hawks, they have lost a substantial number over the years............is it due to poor maintainence or the plane design? the whole world wonders........
Typical, buy expensive equipment but cannot take care or use properly... what's the point? Just end up like the arab armies... or are they dilebrately trying to model themselves after them? -
Been quiet from Innocent Malaysian for some time now, exibiting the typical chabot-underground-and-dissappear-when-faced-with-no-choice-but-to-admit-error truly malaysian mentality... how long do you estimate before he feels brave enuff to crawl back from his hole and repeats his gaffes?
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errr we had hawks once right?
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hawker hunter i think
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Aiyah, you tell a Malaysian that his country army is lousy of course is natural to defend right? Where got people admit that his armed forces are lousy? Also, I think we should not speculate too much about their acccident. That time rss courageous sink then their side made plenty of comments. How did you feel about that?
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Actually now I think it's payback... and payback many times over.
The difference here is that sure pple can defend their own armed forces, but there's a thin line the thread between defending with facts and sheer outright stick-finger-in-ears illogical malaysian defending, which shows an utter disregard for the facts. T
Now that's a difference between singapore and malaysia.
Let's say it was their ship that kenna langar... how do you think Innocent Malaysian will defend it?
I think that's more in the line of:
"Typical error"
"Container ship fault, dunno how to siam us"
"No malaysians were at fault, the ships just took too long to avoid each other"
"The Jews caused this"
"At least better then Singapore"
"Our offical govt. report says that it was just a freak accident that nobody could do anything about, a one-of-thing! Now stop saying that it was a screw up, you are not fit to debate with me, I got offical stand" 
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Isn't this straight out of the Arab world? For years, it looked like Malaysia was trying very hard to "become Arab"...
In a way, I think I kinda started this flamewar when I mentioned the events in Mog.
I just read what's been written about it.. did the Malaysian armed forces really cower in the APCs and refused to even give cover fire? I took all of that with a pinch of salt as I usually do when I read anything about conflict..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:"The Jews caused this" -
NO!Originally posted by the Bear:Isn't this straight out of the Arab world? For years, it looked like Malaysia was trying very hard to "become Arab"...
In a way, I think I kinda started this flamewar when I mentioned the events in Mog.
I just read what's been written about it.. did the Malaysian armed forces really cower in the APCs and refused to even give cover fire? I took all of that with a pinch of salt as I usually do when I read anything about conflict..
During the incident at the Bakara Market, the Malaysians that participated were the crew of the APCs ie. driver, gunner and vehicle commander. The dismounted troops were Americans as requested by the US ie. Rangers and 10th Mountain Regt, their QRF elements.
What was written in the book Black hawk Down, was based on Mark Bowden's interviews with the Rangers....of course, these jokers were the real screwups and can't seem to recognise the that they failed so they tried to blame others for their own blunders in planning the mission.
All postmortem reviews/reports conducted by impartial US Army personnels clearly point the whole fiasco on Task Force Ranger headed by General Garrison. There were no disparaging remarks on the performance of the Malaysian APC crew that participated except for some communication problems due to language barriers.
I take that the person who spew so much BS on this thread about other soldiers performance "under fire" is not qualified to do so as he was not there and neither has he been "under enemy fire" before.
I just wonder how he'll perform when his comrades on his left and right gets their head blown off....will he fight back bravely or cower like a coward.....
There is an old saying about barking dogs never bite....well, the person who has been barking around the most, usually is the one we must all be careful with.... -
Point: I didn't read that book... I read a whole lot of other reports about it.. but then, like I said, who knew what the heck happened there... I remember reading that the Malaysians refused to lay down cover fire and other things...
I believe these reports as much as I believe the official reports...Originally posted by observe:NO!
During the incident at the Bakara Market, the Malaysians that participated were the crew of the APCs ie. driver, gunner and vehicle commander. The dismounted troops were Americans as requested by the US ie. Rangers and 10th Mountain Regt, their QRF elements.
What was written in the book Black hawk Down, was based on Mark Bowden's interviews with the Rangers....of course, these jokers were the real screwups and can't seem to recognise the that they failed so they tried to blame others for their own blunders in planning the mission.
All postmortem reviews/reports conducted by impartial US Army personnels clearly point the whole fiasco on Task Force Ranger headed by General Garrison. There were no disparaging remarks on the performance of the Malaysian APC crew that participated except for some communication problems due to language barriers.
I take that the person who spew so much BS on this thread about other soldiers performance "under fire" is not qualified to do so as he was not there and neither has he been "under enemy fire" before.
I just wonder how he'll perform when his comrades on his left and right gets their head blown off....will he fight back bravely or cower like a coward.....
There is an old saying about barking dogs never bite....well, the person who has been barking around the most, usually is the one we must all be careful with.... -
The bottom line is, the preformance of the Malaysians were hardly anywhere near as stellar as they would like to claim. Esp. when they make it seem as if they were the big grandose heroic saviors of the poor besieged american soldiers and came in guns-a-blazing to rescue those poor darlings from their own mess.
A impression I find laughable. It was remarkable that they decided to be involved when they didn't have a dog in the fight but the follow up gutter about them being heroic belongs in to malaysian fiction. The Malaysian mission in Mog was to extract the americans soldiers, and apparently they did not do that mission anywhere near as well as they'd like to claim.
The thing here is, dun say you're something you're not. If they said the mission in Mog. was a extraction undertaken by some of their forces and gave a bare bones fact account of what when right and what went wrong, like what most sensible armed forces do, that'll be fine. Nobody will fault them for screwing up, this is war after all.
But have they done anything like this? If anything, their attitude towards Mog. was as if the entire world owes them some big favour and should forever hold them in awe on the "heroic" selflessness of their men. Phui man! If anything, they have not treated this account of battle with the respect it deserves and hyped it into some kind of gawdy national icon like their Michell Yeo, which it's not.
Did the Allies take Omaha beach? Yes. But did they make several collosal screw ups in that process? Of course. Everything from underestimating the german defences to DD tanks sinking. And do they remember that incident like Malaysia? Not a chance. Any account you read about Omaha will mention about the tons of screw ups they made, even though they finally achieved their objectives.
What some people up north wants the world to swallow is that their preformance in Mog. was heroic and peerless in execeution... Pleeuzeee... -
which report says that...infact, the book BHD stated that the US troops were worried when the Malaysian APC gunners open fire at the buildings which the Somalis were hiding in...they worried that the bullets will bounce off the wall and hit the dismounted troops!Originally posted by the Bear:Point: I didn't read that book... I read a whole lot of other reports about it.. but then, like I said, who knew what the heck happened there... I remember reading that the Malaysians refused to lay down cover fire and other things...
I believe these reports as much as I believe the official reports... -
i dunno where you saw the claim that the guys up north were heroic and peerless in execution ...certainly not from the Malaysian Government!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The bottom line is, the preformance of the Malaysians were hardly anywhere near as stellar as they would like to claim. Esp. when they make it seem as if they were the big grandose heroic saviors of the poor besieged american soldiers and came in guns-a-blazing to rescue those poor darlings from their own mess.
A impression I find laughable. It was remarkable that they decided to be involved when they didn't have a dog in the fight but the follow up gutter about them being heroic belongs in to malaysian fiction. The Malaysian mission in Mog was to extract the americans soldiers, and apparently they did not do that mission anywhere near as well as they'd like to claim.
The thing here is, dun say you're something you're not. If they said the mission in Mog. was a extraction undertaken by some of their forces and gave a bare bones fact account of what when right and what went wrong, like what most sensible armed forces do, that'll be fine. Nobody will fault them for screwing up, this is war after all.
But have they done anything like this? If anything, their attitude towards Mog. was as if the entire world owes them some big favour and should forever hold them in awe on the "heroic" selflessness of their men. Phui man! If anything, they have not treated this account of battle with the respect it deserves and hyped it into some kind of gawdy national icon like their Michell Yeo, which it's not.
Did the Allies take Omaha beach? Yes. But did they make several collosal screw ups in that process? Of course. Everything from underestimating the german defences to DD tanks sinking. And do they remember that incident like Malaysia? Not a chance. Any account you read about Omaha will mention about the tons of screw ups they made, even though they finally achieved their objectives.
What some people up north wants the world to swallow is that their preformance in Mog. was heroic and peerless in execeution... Pleeuzeee...
Neither did they ever publicise it or blow their trumpet in movies or in any books. Probably some overzealous guys may overstate the role....but not the government.
I believe it all started with Mark Bowden's book. You should know that in Mog, the Rangers were not the top dogs ...the honour went to the Delta Force! Being 2nd best, these guys seem to think anyone else are damn lousy including their own QRF, the 10th Mountain Div!
Somehow, guys in No. 2 spot always seems to have a chip on their shoulder.
So when they screw up in Mog, everyone is to blame including the 10th Mountain Div, the so-called "fresh troops" who took the ride back on the M'sian APCs instead of giving up their seats to the tired Rangers.
Only when the misinformation was published in the books and some US papers, did the M'sian Government made the clarification.
I don't think there was any boasting on their part except when some jokers who bought the misinformation and start disparaging the M'sians wrongly.
This includes yourself....how can the M'sian be cowering like cowards in the APCs, when no M'sian infantrymen participated !
the M'sian must be in the APC becoz they were the drivers and the gunners ie. APC crewmen....surely they are not suppose to abndone their vehicle !
They may not be the heroes but their contribution certainly made the difference between life and death to alot of US Rangers.
This contribution was acknowledge by none other than US General Montgomery.
I think Gen Montgomery has far more credibility than you who have no combat experience at all except particpating in flaming war. -
Excuse me, but I was addressing some malaysian here who apparently thinks that his armed forces never screws up and did a fantastic job in Mog. So much so that the moment you mention that they did mess up a little in Mog. that "innocent" fella goes ballastic.
For their govt. also dun have to say. Though they dun pratice the same kind of blatant disregard for facts like a certain innocent joker and his ratios, it's obvious from their general behaviour and statements that they are also in the heady myth (or at least in the habit of saying) that their armed forces are an unfailable lean mean fighting machine and has a habit of covering up screw ups. And best, they have the gall to act cheeky during the Courageous incident.
Said and done, the armed forces up north have tons of jokers in them. -
r u sure abt tat? ive got a copy of BHD now..it never mention abt Msian worried tat the firing n recocet n hit the troop?Originally posted by observe:which report says that...infact, the book BHD stated that the US troops were worried when the Malaysian APC gunners open fire at the buildings which the Somalis were hiding in...they worried that the bullets will bounce off the wall and hit the dismounted troops!
in the book..it says tat the Ranger saw the Msian cowering for their life n not wanting to fire off..n they just drove off when some of the ranger still not up yet..the Ranger had to point their at the Msian driver to make them stop the APC -
And they certainly acted "professional" when they behaved like Fann Wong fans complaining that their screen time was insufficent.
On the other hand, we dun see the Pakistanis and others involved complaining when they did not appear on screen more then a shot of a M-48 rolling down the streets.
Said and done, the Malaysian APC crews did not have a particularly heroic or remarkable run in Mog. Certainly nothing of the propangadic ammunition they like to use. Lanugage problems aside, as much as people would like to pay lip service and say the typical "selfless, heroic and professional" rethoric that should apply to all soldiers, the Malaysians are kidding themselves if they think that the experience in Mog. showed that there is no large amount of improvement required in their forces, esp when it comes to the area of learning proper english and thinking on their feet and prehaps having a little bit of battlefield intelligence.
And as much as I respect General Monty, look at it logically. Would any commander in that situtation screw up the malaysians in their report? Not unless the malaysians screwed up completely and were routed that is. But they managed to stagger back with the Rangers, anybody in Monty's position would be grateful, irregardless of how botched the extraction was.
But rethoric and politics aside, it is obvious, from the tatical point of view that the malaysians' preformance in Mog. left a lot to be desired. -
between you and him...that i have no comment.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Excuse me, but I was addressing some malaysian here who apparently thinks that his armed forces never screws up and did a fantastic job in Mog. So much so that the moment you mention that they did mess up a little in Mog. that "innocent" fella goes ballastic.
For their govt. also dun have to say. Though they dun pratice the same kind of blatant disregard for facts like a certain innocent joker and his ratios, it's obvious from their general behaviour and statements that they are also in the heady myth (or at least in the habit of saying) that their armed forces are an unfailable lean mean fighting machine and has a habit of covering up screw ups. And best, they have the gall to act cheeky during the Courageous incident.
Said and done, the armed forces up north have tons of jokers in them.
However, i do take exception when in doing so you made slanderous remarks about soldiers who put their life on the line to save others. -
Slanderous? Hardly...
It's easy to hide inside an APC safe frome bullets and hope no RPG come through like the Lt. in Band of Brothers and claim hero later for driving some people back. Granted, no role is too small but common sense needs to be applied when assigning credit. In which case the Malaysians should pride themselves for having good battle chaffuers (those that drive off leaving some of those they were supposed to extract behind on foot) rather then fighting troops. Hey, I'm not saying it's their fault, that's war anyway.
It was the people on the ground doing the footwork and shooting back that were the ones really risking their lives. As botched and pointless the entire thing might seem. And it seems the credit they are getting here from you is "they screwed up, they screwed up."
I think the chorus resounding against you from them would be "screw you!" -
It was not the M'sian soldiers that were worried...they are in the APC.Originally posted by NathanG5:r u sure abt tat? ive got a copy of BHD now..it never mention abt Msian worried tat the firing n recocet n hit the troop?
in the book..it says tat the Ranger saw the Msian cowering for their life n not wanting to fire off..n they just drove off when some of the ranger still not up yet..the Ranger had to point their at the Msian driver to make them stop the APC
Its the American...see page 277.
Now where the hell did they say that M'sian cowering for the life n not wanting to fire off ??
BTW, did you also read about the comments made by the rangers on the 10th Mountain Div ?