Combat experiences of our immediate neighbours.
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yea..i did..classic discrimination of other corp or forces...too much pride..Originally posted by observe:It was not the M'sian soldiers that were worried...they are in the APC.
Its the American...see page 277.
Now where the hell did they say that M'sian cowering for the life n not wanting to fire off ??
BTW, did you also read about the comments made by the rangers on the 10th Mountain Div ? -
I'm not saying they screwed up (whether US or M'sian)...but it was you who keep saying that the M'sian screw up and you're not even there!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Slanderous? Hardly...
It's easy to hide inside an APC safe frome bullets and hope no RPG come through like the Lt. in Band of Brothers and claim hero later for driving some people back. Granted, no role is too small but common sense needs to be applied when assigning credit. In which case the Malaysians should pride themselves for having good battle chaffuers (those that drive off leaving some of those they were supposed to extract behind on foot) rather then fighting troops. Hey, I'm not saying it's their fault, that's war anyway.
It was the people on the ground doing the footwork and shooting back that were the ones really risking their lives. As botched and pointless the entire thing might seem. And it seems the credit they are getting here from you is "they screwed up, they screwed up."
I think the chorus resounding against you from them would be "screw you!"
But it is an acknowledged fact that the entire mission was badly planned which necessitate the rescue attempt by what the US called a polygot assemble....organised at the eleventh hour.
Hey, its even easier for you to say all those things from the comfort of your own home....having no actual combat experience at all.
When war comes, your "true colors" will be known.
For your own good and your comrades, don't chicken out on them. -
well, its was certainly "professional" of you to keep bitching on and on about the M'sian. What have you gain from all this bitching ?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:And they certainly acted "professional" when they behaved like Fann Wong fans complaining that their screen time was insufficent.
On the other hand, we dun see the Pakistanis and others involved complaining when they did not appear on screen more then a shot of a M-48 rolling down the streets.
Said and done, the Malaysian APC crews did not have a particularly heroic or remarkable run in Mog. Certainly nothing of the propangadic ammunition they like to use. Lanugage problems aside, as much as people would like to pay lip service and say the typical "selfless, heroic and professional" rethoric that should apply to all soldiers, the Malaysians are kidding themselves if they think that the experience in Mog. showed that there is no large amount of improvement required in their forces, esp when it comes to the area of learning proper english and thinking on their feet and prehaps having a little bit of battlefield intelligence.
And as much as I respect General Monty, look at it logically. Would any commander in that situtation screw up the malaysians in their report? Not unless the malaysians screwed up completely and were routed that is. But they managed to stagger back with the Rangers, anybody in Monty's position would be grateful, irregardless of how botched the extraction was.
But rethoric and politics aside, it is obvious, from the tatical point of view that the malaysians' preformance in Mog. left a lot to be desired.
As to the performance of the M'sian....i think you are not qualified to give them a performance review...not that they care much about what you have to say.
You keep on saying the screw up, they screw up.
I think the chorus resounding against you from them and from me would be "screw you!" -
You obviously haven't been following this entire thread well enough to post all this.
The whole gist of this thread is that it is okay to screw up, everybody screws up and will screw up.
And I'm sure if it was Singaporeans instead of Malaysians in Mog., we'll make our own fair share of blunders as well.
But the difference here is, how will you react to making mistakes? Do you learn from them or do you cover them up or act as if they did not happen? Or worse, present something that's entirely opposite from what really happened?
The issue here is not if the malaysians screwed up in Mog., which they did and in a major way judging from the mess during the extraction. But how they reacted to it. And sad to say, it was another declare heroic sucess and leave it at that incident.
What we are really getting at here is not the screw up the malaysians made, but rather their way of dealing with them, which is a rather paethetic array of selective memory and cover-up rethoric. I don't think anyone here would be dumb enough to laugh at their screw ups, because we have a fair share of our own. What we are laughing about is the difference in ways both sides deal with theirs. Transparency in the south, coverup and wounded pride licking in the north. -
On the general conduct of the malaysians in the Mog. battle. There will be no smoke without fire.
Granted, truth almost always gets twisted in war, but the fact remains that if their preformance was anywhere near as "applauded" as released in the offical reports, you would not be getting certain negative reviews from those who were there and interacted with them. To the point where stories of pistol pointing popped up (though I am greatly skeptical of them), which indicates that obviously there had been some screw ups on the ground in general couduct to inspire such accounts.
The messed up, period. -
well there you go again about they messed up, speaking as though you know all.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:On the general conduct of the malaysians in the Mog. battle. There will be no smoke without fire.
Granted, truth almost always gets twisted in war, but the fact remains that if their preformance was anywhere near as "applauded" as released in the offical reports, you would not be getting certain negative reviews from those who were there and interacted with them. To the point where stories of pistol pointing popped up (though I am greatly skeptical of them), which indicates that obviously there had been some screw ups on the ground in general couduct to inspire such accounts.
The messed up, period.
What actually transpired, we don't know unless we have the full facts. Official reports states that miscommunication occured. It must be know that the drivers of the APC had radio contact with their own commanders, which were giving them instructions.
These orders may have conflicted with the actual ground situation...but then the drivers would have trouble understanding what actually the US ground troops wanted becoz of the language issue.
In anycase, inspite of the above problems, the entire rescue operation (which consisted of M'sian APC+crew, Rangers, and 10th Mountain Div), did managed to successfully extracted the trapped ranger with very little loss of life. This in itself is certainly not a "messed up" as you suggest. -
Heh heh heh... I found this in the book...
For Steele, the worst moment in the whole fight had come as they pulled away from the line of APCs, watching men climbing on board, and he saw Perino down at the end of the line step back and let Siegler in the hatch, and then, boom! the vehicles took off. There were still guys back there, Perino and others! He beat frantically on the shoulders of the APC driver, screaming at him, "ive got guys still out there!" but the MALAY driver had a tanker helmet on and acted like he didn't hear Steele and just kept on driving. The captain got on the command net. Reception was so bad inside the carrier that he could barely hear a respond, but he broadcast his alarm in disjointed phrase: -We got left back on National...The Paki vehicle were gonna follow us home, the foot soldier...but we loaded up..but we had probably fifteen or twenty still had to walk. They took off and left us. We need somebody to get down there and pick them up.
Malaysian soldiers sure are brave!
-Roger, i understand, Harrell had answered. I thought everybody was loaded.I got about three calls. They were telling me they were loaded. Where are they pn National?
-Romeo, this is Juliet. Im sending this blind.I need those soldier picked up on National ASAP!
In fact, Perino and the others had been picked up, but not without some trouble. The lieutenent and about six other men, Rangers and some D-boys, were the last ones on the street when what looked like the last vehicles approached. The exhausted soldiers shouted and waved but the MALAYSIAN driver paid him them no mind until one of the D-boys stepped out and leveled a CAR-15 at him. He stopped. They just piled in on top of the other men already jammed inside.
(PS: observe, you claim that you are Singaporean. If so, you are a disgrace to all of us.) -
Actually, being sent to peacekeeping duties is not the same as being sent to help one side of the conflict.
The Malaysians and Pakistanis who went to Somalia definately did not anticipate that one of the other members will be going in with out informing them of their actions
Also, as I said in the early part of the thread, what experience does the Malaysians have in Armour Cav operations? They are foot soldiers. So expecting them to drive out and rescue the americans is definately wrong use of assets. Even deploying them as the acv drivers was wrong from the very beginning, so whoever decided the mission was definately more wrong.
So whoever the general who commanded the somalia mission definately has to be blamed as well.
a) For not notifying the rest about the American mission
b) For deploying Malaysians as ACV drivers. -
(PS: observe, you claim that you are Singaporean. If so, you are a disgrace to all of us.)
He has done nothing disgraceful -
i believe that the american didnt notify the rest about their impending operations was because....Originally posted by kenhor:Actually, being sent to peacekeeping duties is not the same as being sent to help one side of the conflict.
The Malaysians and Pakistanis who went to Somalia definately did not anticipate that one of the other members will be going in with out informing them of their actions
Also, as I said in the early part of the thread, what experience does the Malaysians have in Armour Cav operations? They are foot soldiers. So expecting them to drive out and rescue the americans is definately wrong use of assets. Even deploying them as the acv drivers was wrong from the very beginning, so whoever decided the mission was definately more wrong.
So whoever the general who commanded the somalia mission definately has to be blamed as well.
a) For not notifying the rest about the American mission
b) For deploying Malaysians as ACV drivers.
1... the fear of info leak that will doom their operation...
2... in the event there is potential leak, american forces could jolly well end up in an ambush...
3... they may end up with a bunch of unhappy, uncooperative or even outright mutinous alliance partners...
4... they believe that their chances of success will be higher if they can keep it secret.
5... there is no guarantee the other UN forces would cooperate with US mission as it is not part of the UNSC sanctioned actions.
and blah blah blah... so many hassle... so they decided to cut the chase and do it without the other UN PeKers... though perhaps their fault is in not getting more forces on the ground.. or even have a backup plan... worst... they have no reserve units to call upon stat.
i dont see why deploying malaysians as ACV drivers is an error.. afterall... arent those ACVs belong to malaysia?? in war... many things can happen... and at times... infantry soldier may have to fire an arty gun or the other way round....
it was under extreme situation... thus... dont say asking malaysian soldier to drive the ACV... if a dog can drive... i am sure... nobody will have any qualms in passing that dog the car key... -
None of us were in Somalia - none of us were ever under fire.
I don't think we should continue about the MAF peacekeepers in Somalia. I think its getting just a bit out of hand.
Instead - what about our (Singapore's) own experience? Would we have done any better under fire? What can we say for ourselves, other than pointing out other's faults? Did anyone put themselves in that similar position. We should be learning something here.
sidenote-
There are many people lurking around and reading from this forum. This includes foreigners whom I know and who do have real experiences. From the way some posts are made out - it really looks bad on us. -
To tripwire,
I think thats why the Americans don't want to do any more peacekeeping missions. Its harder to go about it with a bunch of allies than to do it on your own. -
RSAF loss and intrusion in Johor;
1. 25 June 1968> RSAF aircraft emergency landing due to machanical failure in Pontian, Johor.
2. 3 Feb 1969> RSAF aircraft crashed in a pineapple plantation near 44km Pontian, Johor.
3. 25 April 1971> RSAF heli crashed near Kota Tinggi, Johor.
4. June 1971> Two RSAF Hunters collided/crashed into the ocean near Pulau Pisang, Pontian.
5. Nov 1971> RSAF Hunter crashed into the jungle near Keluang, Johor.
6. 15 June 1983> RSAF aircraft crashed on Lido beach, JB.
7. Sept 1991> RSAF Northrop F-5 crashed in a golf corse at Pasir Gudang, Johor.
8. 2 Feb 1992> RSAF Marchetti 211 crashed into the Johor Straits.
These mishaps are only accounted for in Johor. It does not include accidents in around Singapore or overseas trainning. -
Whats your point? The write-offs you've mentioned are almost certainly training flights with permission to overfly Malaysia. so how could they be intrusions?Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian:RSAF loss and intrusion in Johor;
1. 25 June 1968> RSAF aircraft emergency landing due to machanical failure in Pontian, Johor.
2. 3 Feb 1969> RSAF aircraft crashed in a pineapple plantation near 44km Pontian, Johor.
3. 25 April 1971> RSAF heli crashed near Kota Tinggi, Johor.
4. June 1971> Two RSAF Hunters collided/crashed into the ocean near Pulau Pisang, Pontian.
5. Nov 1971> RSAF Hunter crashed into the jungle near Keluang, Johor.
6. 15 June 1983> RSAF aircraft crashed on Lido beach, JB.
7. Sept 1991> RSAF Northrop F-5 crashed in a golf corse at Pasir Gudang, Johor.
8. 2 Feb 1992> RSAF Marchetti 211 crashed into the Johor Straits.
These mishaps are only accounted for in Johor. It does not include accidents in around Singapore or overseas trainning.
This post and your language smacks of another attempt to start another flame war, given that
1) you use the word intrusion, and the examples given are almost certainly NOT
2) Has got nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
I'm very rapidly running out of patience with you Innocent Malaysian, please explain yourself or I'll delete the post at exactly 2230 on 05/05/03 for the simple reason it is flame bait and does nothing for the topic being discussed. -
a friend sent me the info..i just copied and pasted since some1 ask for the info.
who is the owner of this forum?
is it centurionMBT? -
Actually i believe they did not want to inform the others because the operation could have been leaked to their targets as their target was very high level officals.Also IIRC the Italian intel network warned the warlords about an impending US operation or something like that.The error i believe was not in depolying the malaysian drivers but the lack of communication with them.Language barriers and the need for the Malaysian to take orders from their home base who may not know the situation or may have gotten different situation briefings from the US staff.AlsoI believe the 10th Mountain could have been sent in alone with more tanks instead of using Malaysian or Paki troop with whom they did not even know how to communicate to!Originally posted by tripwire:i believe that the american didnt notify the rest about their impending operations was because....
1... the fear of info leak that will doom their operation...
2... in the event there is potential leak, american forces could jolly well end up in an ambush...
3... they may end up with a bunch of unhappy, uncooperative or even outright mutinous alliance partners...
4... they believe that their chances of success will be higher if they can keep it secret.
5... there is no guarantee the other UN forces would cooperate with US mission as it is not part of the UNSC sanctioned actions.
and blah blah blah... so many hassle... so they decided to cut the chase and do it without the other UN PeKers... though perhaps their fault is in not getting more forces on the ground.. or even have a backup plan... worst... they have no reserve units to call upon stat.
i dont see why deploying malaysians as ACV drivers is an error.. afterall... arent those ACVs belong to malaysia?? in war... many things can happen... and at times... infantry soldier may have to fire an arty gun or the other way round....
it was under extreme situation... thus... dont say asking malaysian soldier to drive the ACV... if a dog can drive... i am sure... nobody will have any qualms in passing that dog the car key... -
Hmmm....copied and pasted the information wholesale onto this forum without any reference to the original question being asked, or stating that its a reply? What did you think the reaction here was going to be, going by the makeup of this forum and your past record? Can you really blame anyone for taking it for a flame bait?Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian:a friend sent me the info..i just copied and pasted since some1 ask for the info.
who is the owner of this forum?
is it centurionMBT?
As for who the owner is, I'd like to think that it belongs to all of us who post here, while the moderators are here to ensure that things do not get out of hand, thus letting a minority spoil it for the majority -
Our uninformed overflight permission was only revoked in 1998 or 1999 i remember as there was this big whoha about it and then Singapore from then on had to request permission before entering Malaysian Airspace.This meant i saw a huge drop in planes overflying my house.And this was only recently making all those so called intursions into Johor legit.This is especially so considering up till the 90's Malaysian Naval training school HQ was located in Singapore and in the early 70's i believe there were still 1 btl of malaysian infantry stationed here.I do not think those were considered intrusions or ocupation forces now arent they?Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian:RSAF loss and intrusion in Johor;
1. 25 June 1968> RSAF aircraft emergency landing due to machanical failure in Pontian, Johor.
2. 3 Feb 1969> RSAF aircraft crashed in a pineapple plantation near 44km Pontian, Johor.
3. 25 April 1971> RSAF heli crashed near Kota Tinggi, Johor.
4. June 1971> Two RSAF Hunters collided/crashed into the ocean near Pulau Pisang, Pontian.
5. Nov 1971> RSAF Hunter crashed into the jungle near Keluang, Johor.
6. 15 June 1983> RSAF aircraft crashed on Lido beach, JB.
7. Sept 1991> RSAF Northrop F-5 crashed in a golf corse at Pasir Gudang, Johor.
8. 2 Feb 1992> RSAF Marchetti 211 crashed into the Johor Straits.
These mishaps are only accounted for in Johor. It does not include accidents in around Singapore or overseas trainning.
And yes CenturionMBT is the owner of this forum as stated in the front page by his nick being bolded -
Originally posted by Viper52:
i don't see you as a mature person. Too emotional.
Whats your point? The write-offs you've mentioned are almost certainly training flights with permission to overfly Malaysia. [b]so how could they be intrusions?
This post and your language smacks of another attempt to start another flame war, given that
1) you use the word intrusion, and the examples given are almost certainly NOT
2) Has got nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
I'm very rapidly running out of patience with you Innocent Malaysian, please explain yourself or I'll delete the post at exactly 2230 on 05/05/03 for the simple reason it is flame bait and does nothing for the topic being discussed.
TO ALL OTHER FORUMMERS, PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST YET, I WANT TO SEE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY FOR HIMSELF[/b] -
Viper, please calm down.He did not post any imflamatory topics or use any language that are offensive in nature.He just simply posted some facts and thats it.
Be neutral at all times and do not let your emotions come over you. -
wah, i got backing from the forum owner/creator.
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Centurion, I know all he did was to post some facts, but can you see how easily his post would have started another flame war? All I did was to ask for his reason behind posting those facts(which were not exactly accurate to begin with - reasons mentioned) which he supplied. Which was fine and good, thats why I left the post alone after refuting some of the inaccuracies.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Viper, please calm down.He did not post any imflamatory topics or use any language that are offensive in nature.He just simply posted some facts and thats it.
Be neutral at all times and do not let your emotions come over you.
If I didn't want to be neutral and let emotions come over me I'd have deleted the post straight off, and if I had wanted to nail him (again) I'd have waited for the flames to begin before stepping in... -
Emotional? See above post for what I have done if so.Originally posted by Kol:i don't see you as a mature person. Too emotional.
Thank you for your most constructive post, your comments appreciated
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Thank you, and this is the very reason I questioned his intentions using the term "RSAF loss and intrusion in Johor" from his original post listing the RSAF crashes in Johor. Because quite simply, they weren't intrusions to begin with.Originally posted by |-|05|:Our uninformed overflight permission was only revoked in 1998 or 1999 i remember as there was this big whoha about it and then Singapore from then on had to request permission before entering Malaysian Airspace.
Innocent Malaysian, your reputation preceeds you
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About the supposed intrusions... is there even anything to talk about?
Just how must credibility do you think their weapons of mass distraction, esp their MOABs (Malaysia Orang Aksi Borak), esp one named ‘Doktor M’ has?
Basically, every time they raise hue and cry over something Singapore has supposedly stepped on their toes for, I pay them little heed. Do you? I don't think I ministers do either, besides passing some carefully forumated statement to turn down their volume.