Combat experiences of our immediate neighbours.
-
I guess I could try to classify Innocent Malaysian as some kind of smaller incendiary device not unlike their MOABs (explained above), powered on hot air and good for starting flames but little else. Though there is nothjing fear from them because they cannot be classified as smart weapons by any measure.
-
It is odd that when there are more pages added to show the duration of the thread, the more digression from the original topic the discussions will develop.
The original topic read as “Combat Experience of our Immediate Neighbors” into how effective their combat skill has added to their “combat experience”.
Some have even indicated that “Peace Keeping” Duties with the United Nations may not count as “Combat Experience” – which begs the question as to what kind of combat action count as “Combat Experience”?
What if hostile acts of wars erupt suddenly in a declared Neutral Area controlled by UN Peace Keepers, and the same Peace Keepers have to return gunfire to protect themselves, and maintain the peace? Will this not count as combat experience? Or should one limit the acceptance of combat experience as one that involve military campaigns involving a military unit of no less then a Division or a Brigade or a Battalion?
Before attempting to pick-up the thread, I would prefer to describe Combat Experience as one in which any military personnel that participate in any battle, and coming under hostile fires that require his military skills in combating such hostile fires, will be sufficient to allow this personnel to have gained "Combat Experience", irregardless of the Unit Size – from the basic infantry team, squad, platoon, or even a Company - so long as the individual soldier has been through the “baptism of fire”.
Combat will cover battles against insurgency, guerilla warfare, or even military campaigns of any breadth; and we should perhaps limit the Combat Experience as occurring in wars in the Twentieth Century.
With this as a base, the various countries that were mentioned as our IMMEDIATE Neighbors, with the most Combat Experience will be as follows:-
Philippines
The Philippines had fought against America from 1899 to 1902 and won its independence from this short war.
Her fledging Military was formed with the backing of the US Administration in the Philippines, and had fought gallantly in WW-2 against Japan, The Philippines had contributed their soldiers to fight in the Korean War, as well as throughout the Vietnam War period. It fought an insurgency war against the Communist NPA in Luzon from the early 1950s till the present date, and the Muslim insurgency in the south from the mid-1970s until the present date. The internal combat with the insurgents has been on going since.
Philippines-America War http://www.historyguy.com/PhilipineAmericanwar.html
Philippines Armed Forces
http://www.armedforces.mil.ph/
Vietnam -
At war with China for a thousand years from being a vassal state, and as a colony fighting for independence from the French Colonials from 1939 to 1955 - and fighting the Japanese during WW2; at war with the USA from 1956 through to 1974, and of course not forgetting a very short but very damaging war with China in 1979
VN War - Map
http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/sea-ao.html
VN War Background
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/vietnam.htm
VN-China War
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/prc-vietnam.htm
VN Military
http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-tudy/vietnam/vietnam139.html
Thailand -
as a nation had contributed troops to fight in the Korean War, as well as throughout the Vietnam War. She has also fought limited campaigns with Myanmar for a duration of a few months, but by and large, she has not been in combat too much.
General Development of Royal Thai Armed Forces
http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide study/thailand/thailand136.html
Laos
During the 1950s, Laos was divided into the Communist and the non-Communist parts, with each territory ruled by a Prince from the same Royal Family. The Communists from North Vietnam, who used the territory to make up part of the HoChiMinh Trail during the Vietnam War, supported the Communist half. While the non-Communist Laotian was supported by the US, with funds supporting the regimeÂ’s military being paid from the CIA budget.
Throughout the 1960s, both sides fought major campaigns to gain the high grounds; and with the US withdrawal from the Vietnam War, the non-Communist side agreed with the Communist side not to fight amongst themselves, and unify the country under Communist rule. The military was united as a whole.
Cambodia
The Cambodians army is no longer existing in the form that it was during the 1950s to the 1970s; as the Military that fought in a supporting role to the USA during the Vietnam War, surrendered to Pol Pot when the USA withdrew from Indochina, and allowed Vietnam to sweep over and unified South Vietnam with the North.
The generals that ruled Cambodia, when Prince Sihanouk abdicated his rule of Cambodia and withdrew to France (and subsequently to China), then fought a short war with the Communist Khmers Rouge guerillas led by Pol Pot and swept into power, then fought against the Vietnamese – who could tolerate the murderous ways of Pol Pot.
The present Cambodian Army saw a limited combat action fighting against the Khmer Rouge Guerillas, and with the backing of ASEAN (especially with military hardware and supplies from Singapore), they overwhelmed the Khmer Rouge which finally was given up by PR China.
Myanmar
The military had fought against insurgencies guerilla groups trying to break away from the Central Government, and involve the various ethnic groups that form the majority in the outlying provinces that are far away from the Central Government in Yangon (or Rangoon).
These wars were fought since before the war with the Japanese during WW-2, which formed a short interval before full scale campaigns were launched.
The insurgents soon realized that they had to resort to the sale of drugs to obtain funds to purchase weapons and ammunitions, and they soon found this to be a useful objective to fight for independence from the Central Government in Yangon.
The wars have been fought since the late 1940s till the present date, with several ethnic groups already at peace with the Central Military Government in Yangon, and leaving only a few remaining die hard ethnic groups still fighting for independence.
The combat experience of their military is as long as that of the Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians and the Thais.
Indonesia
has seen its military in campaigns to take over territories that were left unattended by the European Colonialists, with the first being the independence of the entire Indonesian Archipelago from the Dutch, then the snatching of West Timor and Irian Jaya from the Portuguese.
In the course of it, the Indonesia military had to fight the local guerilla wars with the local ethnic populations that are genetically different from the Malay-Bugis origins of the main stream Indonesian population.
The ambitions of the first Indonesian President was challenged by the vision of the formation of Malaysia, and a low scale war of insurgency was fought – called Konfrontasi, and largely involved the British Military.
In the mid 1970s, Indonesia had also to contend with the call from independence from its northern province of Acheh, and several major military campaigns were launched to fight the “religious army” of Acheh that were fighting a guerilla war.
A Study of the Indonesian Armed Forces
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/1998-99/99rp23.htm
Unofficial Web Site of Indonesian Armed Forces
http://indoforce.tripod.com/
Malaysia
Her Armed Forces did not exist during WW-2, and a fledging army supported the British Military, which contributed the main force during the Malayan Emergency – which was a war against Communist Insurgency of the 1950s.
Up to the mid-1960s, the Malaysian Army did not consist more then three battalions of Royal Malay Regiment, with a light Armour Recce Battalion more for Internal Security.
During the Confrontation Campaign (Konfrontasi) with Indonesia, the British Military was the main force that formed the front line in Sarawak and Sabah, launching aggressive patrols with the SAS, Royal Marines, Commandoes, Paras, Artillery, and the Gurhkas to lay ambush along infiltration routes from Indonesian Kalimantan.
The few actions that exclusive involve local Malaysian military was the hunt for Indonesian paratroopers that jumped into Johor State, and involved also the 2nd Singapore Infantry Regiment (Merged into MAF and renamed as Malaysian Infantry Regiment) – who lost 9 men from an Infantry Platoon Patrol, while taking a bath with the guard on duty being careless, and allowing an Indonesian Section to ambush the Section, killing and mutilating the bodies.
2nd SIR hunted down the Indoneisans relentlessly, and every single one was killed, and the same courtesy was returned.
Singapore
When Singapore joined Malaysia in 1963, there already existed the 1st and 2nd Singapore Infantry Regiment , which was absorbed into the Malaysian Army Orbat when Singapore became part of Malaysia. It saw action in Sabah and Johor during the Confrontation,
Indonesian Konfrontasi
http://www.oklah.com/specialfeatures/doc/sp20020916_11951.htm
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Borneo/index.html
http://www.ausvets.powerup.com.au/indo.htm
1 and 2 SIR – History
http://www.regiments.org/milhist/eastasia/sg-regts/SIR.htm -
you forgot the recent cambodian civil war sometime in 1994 when we had to send in our SAF and fly our people out
-
Topic digression is nothing new. It happens to all(and I mean all) the forums I visit unless the moderators keep a ruthlessly dictatorial policy in eliminating even remotely off-topic posts.
Some have even indicated that “Peace Keeping” Duties with the United Nations may not count as “Combat Experience” – which begs the question as to what kind of combat action count as “Combat Experience”?
What if hostile acts of wars erupt suddenly in a declared Neutral Area controlled by UN Peace Keepers, and the same Peace Keepers have to return gunfire to protect themselves, and maintain the peace? Will this not count as combat experience? Or should one limit the acceptance of combat experience as one that involve military campaigns involving a military unit of no less then a Division or a Brigade or a Battalion?
Good point, I see what you mean when you say that returning fire while as Blue Helmets does constitute Combat Experience, and I agree wholeheartedly. But how often do the UN peacekeepers encounter that? Places like Cyprus, where UN peacekeepers are stationed and a standing ceasefire is in place since the 70s, do not exactly provide a whole lot of combat experience. Similarly, with the exception of those who took part the firefight down in the Mog in '93, the Malaysian Army has not gotten an iota of combat time while serving under UN colours as far as I remember(I might be wrong here)
Thailand -
as a nation had contributed troops to fight in the Korean War, as well as throughout the Vietnam War. She has also fought limited campaigns with Myanmar for a duration of a few months, but by and large, she has not been in combat too much.
Don't forget border clashes took place quite often in the years of the Cambodian War (1979-1989) between Thai soldiers and forces of the Vietnamese sponsored Cambodian regime in hot pursuit of Khmer Rouge and Royalist guerillas fleeing to Thailand from cross border raids. From what I gather, the Thais came off second best quite often
Cambodia
The Cambodians army is no longer existing in the form that it was during the 1950s to the 1970s; as the Military that fought in a supporting role to the USA during the Vietnam War, surrendered to Pol Pot when the USA withdrew from Indochina, and allowed Vietnam to sweep over and unified South Vietnam with the North.
The generals that ruled Cambodia, when Prince Sihanouk abdicated his rule of Cambodia and withdrew to France (and subsequently to China), then fought a short war with the Communist Khmers Rouge guerillas led by Pol Pot and swept into power, then fought against the Vietnamese – who could tolerate the murderous ways of Pol Pot.
I'm assuming you meant to say "then fought against the Vietnamese – who couldn't tolerate the murderous ways of Pol Pot", because the Khmer Rouge fought against the US-backed military government in Cambodia till they won in 1975, when "Year Zero" began, which amid the atrocities the Khmer Rouge commited, was the systematic murder of minority Vietnamese in Cambodia, which, coupled with its(Vietnam's) expansionist ambitions, prompted Vietnam to invade Cambodia in 1979 and install a more compliant regime(that of Hun Sen). The Khmer Rouge then melted into the jungles, allying with the Royalist Forces who were in turn supported by ASEAN and China(who for differing reasons were not exactly too keen to see Vietnamese - and hence Soviet hegemony in SE Asia)
The present Cambodian Army saw a limited combat action fighting against the Khmer Rouge Guerillas, and with the backing of ASEAN (especially with military hardware and supplies from Singapore), they overwhelmed the Khmer Rouge which finally was given up by PR China.
Errr...seems like you got a little confused here. In 1979-1989 the Royalist Sihanouk forces were allied with the Khmer Rouge forces who fought against forces of Vietnam and the Vietnamese backed Cambodian regime of Hun Sen. China and ASEAN supported the anti-Vietnamese coalition(for lack of a better term) including the Khmer Rouge which was never overwhelmed till the peace process kicked in after 1989(which united the ex-Viet sponsored gov't and their former Royalist foes) and the Khmer Rouge leaders started kicking the proberbial bucket.
The present Cambodian army is made up of forces drawn from the Royalist and pro-Vietnamese armies. A national reconciliation army, so to speak.
But, I digress...again
-
The guys on the ground never got to fire a shot. But it sure gave the planners some experience in planning operational missions.Originally posted by |-|05|:you forgot the recent cambodian civil war sometime in 1994 when we had to send in our SAF and fly our people out
-
the recent TNI manoveurves in Aceh will somehow add some experience into their ranks......i amaze me that despite under a US arns embargo since late 90s, they still can count on 6-7? C-130s for airborne ops.....impressive.... they must have planned for this ops for a number of years........ when they announce that they are taking actions, most of their troops are already in position......
-
Hi |-|05| and Viper52
Thanks for the event updates, you guys are sharp in the sequence of events in Cambodia.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0827552.html -
ahha ya i know what i meant was that he left that out when he detailed the Cambodians armyOriginally posted by Viper52:The guys on the ground never got to fire a shot. But it sure gave the planners some experience in planning operational missions. -
Ya surprising.......wonder how they got the spares.....could it be from us?Originally posted by kanzer:the recent TNI manoveurves in Aceh will somehow add some experience into their ranks......i amaze me that despite under a US arns embargo since late 90s, they still can count on 6-7? C-130s for airborne ops.....impressive.... they must have planned for this ops for a number of years........ when they announce that they are taking actions, most of their troops are already in position...... -
Those may not be C-130s manufactured by Lockheed, as the locally produced Indonesian Military Transport Plane CN-235 looks similar to the C-130 from a distance.Originally posted by |-|05|:Ya surprising.......wonder how they got the spares.....could it be from us?
This is a joint venture with the Spanish CASA aircraft manufacturer.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/cn235mp/cn235mp3 -
news report said C-130,,,?Originally posted by Atobe:Those may not be C-130s manufactured by Lockheed, as the locally produced Indonesian Military Transport Plane CN-235 looks similar to the C-130 from a distance.
This is a joint venture with the Spanish CASA aircraft manufacturer.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/cn235mp/cn235mp3 -
Don't trust the reporters to be expert in identifying military equipment.Originally posted by |-|05|:news report said C-130,,,?
Some ST Reporters once called the Bionix a "tank". -
I saw a photo of the paradrop in the International Herald Tribune, and indeed it was the C-130.Originally posted by Atobe:Those may not be C-130s manufactured by Lockheed, as the locally produced Indonesian Military Transport Plane CN-235 looks similar to the C-130 from a distance.
This is a joint venture with the Spanish CASA aircraft manufacturer.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/cn235mp/cn235mp3
Spares wise, there are a whole lot of civilian operators of the C-130/L-100 out there, wouldn't have been that difficult to obtain parts to keep 'em flying -
it would be interesting to see how long can the TNI sustain its operation in Aceh. The operation in Aceh will reveal alot of information on its modus operandi, tactics, organisation and effectiveness of TNI in conducting a large scale operation. After the initial propoganda i.e. paradrop and air strike intended for foreign journalists, the real show really begin......
-
The TNI has a reputation of being a bully, and not surprisingly so when in a society where patronage continue to exist.
"Respect" and "deference" is only given to authority as a result of the fear to the Authority who is prepared to flex its muscles at any time.
We will need to see not only the strategic approach of the TNI in handling the Aceh problem, but also the approach of the entire Indonesian Government machinery - that will include all the various Ministries - in supporting the TNI operation.
The operation in Aceh cannot be a military approach by TNI alone, as it must also involve the other Ministries to win over the Hearts and Minds of the Acehnese populations, who will certainly be dislodged from their communities, as the battles will be fought in the villages, towns, as well as in the rice fields and jungles.
Will the Indonesians show modern day sophistication in this "war" or will they show the characteristic brute attitude towards the Acehnese - that was displayed in East Timor, and during the riots in Jakarta that was largely directed at the Chinese community? -
i have been reading this long thread
just wana share my thoughts on this matter
on paper, it seems that spore has a stronger arsenal of equipment but pls do not underestimate e matland arsenal
matland is fast becoming a major economic power in south east asia n they may soon lead e pack in e arms race in e region
wat we can do, they will probably outdo us or try to outdo us
hence, never underestimate them
instead, go n study them n find out their weakness
do not laugh at them
in any case,im a sporean
^_^ -
quite true. underestimating and giving too much respect is not good when facing a potential foe.
-
ahah ya we shld not under estimate them....but we can always spray pork oil all over their countryOriginally posted by igggy:i have been reading this long thread
just wana share my thoughts on this matter
on paper, it seems that spore has a stronger arsenal of equipment but pls do not underestimate e matland arsenal
matland is fast becoming a major economic power in south east asia n they may soon lead e pack in e arms race in e region
wat we can do, they will probably outdo us or try to outdo us
hence, never underestimate them
instead, go n study them n find out their weakness
do not laugh at them
in any case,im a sporean
^_^
but then we might be hauled into the ICJ for being inhumane -
only if we lose... otherwise, we'll haul them up before the war crimes tribunal on charges of crimes against humanity and breach of peace.
-
hahaha yea like they say....to the victor history goesOriginally posted by CX:only if we lose... otherwise, we'll haul them up before the war crimes tribunal on charges of crimes against humanity and breach of peace.