Jakarta new aircraft purchases....
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http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,185049,00.html?
Wow, hang-on, 2 Su27, 2 SU-30? What is this? 2 of each type? How is TNI going to maintain these 2 different types (albeit they have common parts). Furthermore, only 4 aircraft - to do what? If 1 crash then what's going to happen?
Jakarta military wants 48 Russian aircraft
Armed forces chief hopes to get them within four years
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He said the air force has for the moment decided to buy two Sukhoi-27s, two Sukhoi-30s and two MI-35 helicopters for a total value of US$197 million (S$350 million).
Now they are going to be operating 2 different types russian jets of 2 each, 12 F-16s, skyhawks, etc. It sounds even worse than RMAF purchases. Why don't they stick to only either the Su27 or the SU-30 but instead having to buy 2 of each. This is really funny. -
best part is i doubt 2 is enough to train on!
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lolz..... i thought they said they were getting more...
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is said that they wan 48 a/cOriginally posted by Moonstriker:lolz..... i thought they said they were getting more... -
a lot of hot air. . . they have to loan cash from the bank to help them pay for only 4 jets and 2 choppers, and they are only paying 12.5% of the total cost in cash. .. if they are going to got 48 a/c. . . either the government will declare itself bankrupt or the bank in Indonesia will collapse. . .
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IndonesiA Is a very large natural resource producer. As well as a producer of textiles and shoes. I don't think that they will pay everything in cash .. they may go the Malaysian way, palm oil, timber, natural gas, petrol, etc.
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Half their resources are untapped and some are in in places that are hard to develop areas like Aceh and Irin Jaya.Heck they lost East Timor which has gas and oil.So really very hard for them.Besides their too unstable to draw much investors and too poor to invest themselvesOriginally posted by kenhor:IndonesiA Is a very large natural resource producer. As well as a producer of textiles and shoes. I don't think that they will pay everything in cash .. they may go the Malaysian way, palm oil, timber, natural gas, petrol, etc. -
I just dont see why they should purchase 2 Su-27 and Su-30, 2 multi-role aircraft performing the same roles of air superiority and ground attack. In fact Indonesia had cancelled an order for 12 Su-30 in the late 1990s citing financial problems.
The new purchase and probably later purchases of Su-27/30 could be to replace their F-16s which are down due to lack of spares or maybe their aging A-4. -
Not true about all of Indonesia's natural resources being unaccessbale and far away.
The Palm Oil plant does not grow naturally in SEA. It has to be cultivated. Hence, where you find palm oil, you find humans.
As for losing East Timor, the oil is AT SEA .. not on land. They have not even finished the existing oil fields at Natuna and Aceh so why bother sucking East Timor yet? When they lost E.Timor, did Indonesia's GDP go down at all? Not a dip.
Yes, it may take some doing to really get enough natural resources to pay the russians. But they may give credit instead. Like Palm Oil is being traded on some commodity board in Malaysia. Maybe the indonesians will give few hundred million ringgit worth of "credits" as payment. And will contra that for actual palm oil eventually.
Lets just wait a while to see what the final offer is from the indonesians. -
Oh it is true their untapped.Why? Sure Aceh and the surronding sea has oil.But the bad thing is Aceh is under rebellion and ofcause the 1st thing they'd attack is the petrol plants thus they cannot fully develop that area due to lower investors confidence in that country.Thus they do not have the money to even develop the fields themselves.....believe me the oil industry is very expensive to even go into.Sure they can trade palm oil like Malaysia but remember Malaysia is paying a bigger majority of the price in cold hard CASH while Indonasia doesnt have that much cash.....if you read defence articles they're hard pressed to even mantaint their army.Credits are not vaild due to the unstablilty of the country.Same thing with the banks are not going to lend you money if you're working as a temp and ou cash input is not constant....it's all about balance of economies which as a sale manager you should understand....right?Originally posted by kenhor:Not true about all of Indonesia's natural resources being unaccessbale and far away.
The Palm Oil plant does not grow naturally in SEA. It has to be cultivated. Hence, where you find palm oil, you find humans.
As for losing East Timor, the oil is AT SEA .. not on land. They have not even finished the existing oil fields at Natuna and Aceh so why bother sucking East Timor yet? When they lost E.Timor, did Indonesia's GDP go down at all? Not a dip.
Yes, it may take some doing to really get enough natural resources to pay the russians. But they may give credit instead. Like Palm Oil is being traded on some commodity board in Malaysia. Maybe the indonesians will give few hundred million ringgit worth of "credits" as payment. And will contra that for actual palm oil eventually.
Lets just wait a while to see what the final offer is from the indonesians.
But let's wait and see thats the best
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The palm oil credits are not backed by the Indonesian Government, but rather the Palm Oil Promotion Board .. and the KL Commodities exchange. So if they back it up, they will give the palm oil in exchange of the credit.
As for being poor, Indonesian military has definately more clout in running the country than some politicians. So I am sure that funds can be diverted to pay for the equipment if they REALLY want it.
I am not sure what portion of the payment is going to be in cash and commodities, nor what Russia plans to do with the palm oil. But India is a net importer of plam oil, as they need the stuff for domestic consumption, so maybe both the Malaysians and Indonesians plan to flood India with Palm Oil
As for Aceh, short term is that the insurgents may have the upper hand, but long term, the gas/oil is still there. Hence Indonesia will still get tax revenue from whoever extracts the stuff. Maybe not the federal government, but the local government, but somehow, there is money to be made.
The Natuna Islands have no issues. (I think)
Stability profits all people, but Indonesia has been unstable since 1997, and still they have not yet broken up. Humans will still find a way to survive, prosper in difficult situations. -
I do not know about palm oil but ill trust you on thatOriginally posted by kenhor:The palm oil credits are not backed by the Indonesian Government, but rather the Palm Oil Promotion Board .. and the KL Commodities exchange. So if they back it up, they will give the palm oil in exchange of the credit.
As for being poor, Indonesian military has definately more clout in running the country than some politicians. So I am sure that funds can be diverted to pay for the equipment if they REALLY want it.
I am not sure what portion of the payment is going to be in cash and commodities, nor what Russia plans to do with the palm oil. But India is a net importer of plam oil, as they need the stuff for domestic consumption, so maybe both the Malaysians and Indonesians plan to flood India with Palm Oil
As for Aceh, short term is that the insurgents may have the upper hand, but long term, the gas/oil is still there. Hence Indonesia will still get tax revenue from whoever extracts the stuff. Maybe not the federal government, but the local government, but somehow, there is money to be made.
The Natuna Islands have no issues. (I think)
Stability profits all people, but Indonesia has been unstable since 1997, and still they have not yet broken up. Humans will still find a
way to survive, prosper in difficult situations.
As for Aceh yes it is the short term politically being like that for a mere 5 years??The oil(ill use that to mean gas too) cannot be extracted until that place is fully stable and indonasia regains investors confidence which is not easy.And in this day of Terrorisum offshore rigs are easy targets especially in the pirate infested waters of South-East Asia.
The Indonasian army is already back dated enough.And though their military has alot of clout if their broke their broke....In 1998 i believe they're defence budget was USD$0.9 billion and even now it's a mere 2 billion half of Singapore's but with their armed forces 2 times our size!!They were going to borrow money from their Indonasian banks and dip into their off budget funds plus trade offs in resources just to pay all this.Thats how broke they are.
But like you said man we will wait to see their final purchase and how they pay for it -
I think despite the war (or conflict) in Aceh, the Exxon Mobil plant there is still in operation. The army does guard the facility (I think there was an article in some magazine saying the army also needs bribes for them to guard the facility)
So there may be hiccups, but do not forget that Indonesia is an OPEC member .. that means that they have more oil than Malaysia. In fact, I think the produce more oil than Brunei even. So theoretically, they can do a barter oil for weapons trade to India. (Russia being a net oil exporter won't be interested in oil)
I think the Indonesian armed forces are really outdated in their weaponery. So the upgrade is neccessary. The thing I want to stress is that not every country acts like Singapore. We buy our equipment with cash. And it benefits very little middlemen.
Other countries do use their military procurement as a very nice way of making money on the side. We see that in Malaysia, China, USA etc. So I won't be too surprised if somehow, Indonesia finds ways to PAY for the equipment. Thats the real world.
And another thing, they bought the entire east german navy in the past. Donno how they afforded it too. So it will be bought. Only question is how they publicly say they are paying for it.
In fact, it may even be the Malaysians who are pushing the Indonesians to buy russian equipment .. they are the nearest ones (ok .. vietnam also have) that has the equipment .. maybe they are underwriting the procurement (while being the middleman) .. I was told that a certain company controlled by the only Malaysian Indian Billionaire is actually an arms broker. (Billionaire + Indian + Good friend of Dr M .. see the connection
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Singapore doesnt really buy with cash...we license quite alot of it and build it ourselves.......and sometimes even sell it...Originally posted by kenhor:I think despite the war (or conflict) in Aceh, the Exxon Mobil plant there is still in operation. The army does guard the facility (I think there was an article in some magazine saying the army also needs bribes for them to guard the facility)
So there may be hiccups, but do not forget that Indonesia is an OPEC member .. that means that they have more oil than Malaysia. In fact, I think the produce more oil than Brunei even. So theoretically, they can do a barter oil for weapons trade to India. (Russia being a net oil exporter won't be interested in oil)
I think the Indonesian armed forces are really outdated in their weaponery. So the upgrade is neccessary. The thing I want to stress is that not every country acts like Singapore. We buy our equipment with cash. And it benefits very little middlemen.
Other countries do use their military procurement as a very nice way of making money on the side. We see that in Malaysia, China, USA etc. So I won't be too surprised if somehow, Indonesia finds ways to PAY for the equipment. Thats the real world.
And another thing, they bought the entire east german navy in the past. Donno how they afforded it too. So it will be bought. Only question is how they publicly say they are paying for it.
In fact, it may even be the Malaysians who are pushing the Indonesians to buy russian equipment .. they are the nearest ones (ok .. vietnam also have) that has the equipment .. maybe they are underwriting the procurement (while being the middleman) .. I was told that a certain company controlled by the only Malaysian Indian Billionaire is actually an arms broker. (Billionaire + Indian + Good friend of Dr M .. see the connection )
And yes Indonasia does produce alot of Natrual Gas(not alot of oil though)But with that amount of corrouption do you think they are getting alot of the gas money??i hardly doubt it.....and the Exxon plants there are operating but barely....also they have not been able to expend nor look for new wells due to the unrest.The Indonasian goverment cannot use oil to barter trade due to the fact that the oil can only be given out to companies and not the country.They have to give the oil rights to indian companies and trade deals thats the only way.Oh and Singapore also does offer trade deals and other stuff for the hardware -
Singapore doesnt really buy with cash...we license quite alot of it and build it ourselves.......and sometimes even sell it...
And yes Indonasia does produce alot of Natrual Gas(not alot of oil though)But with that amount of corrouption do you think they are getting alot of the gas money??i hardly doubt it.....and the Exxon plants there are operating but barely....also they have not been able to expend nor look for new wells due to the unrest.The Indonasian goverment cannot use oil to barter trade due to the fact that the oil can only be given out to companies and not the country.They have to give the oil rights to indian companies and trade deals thats the only way.Oh and Singapore also does offer trade deals and other stuff for the hardware
Oh I am sure we license/build lots of stuff. But not aircraft. And definately not the good stuff that we are planning to procure like the JSF.
As for CASH, I don't mean we pay everything up front. but we do not have other barter goods in exchange for our arms purchases. What does the USA/Isreal want from Singapore that is not produced elsewhere (we buy it first <--- cash outflow, assemble and sell to USA) That is different from Malaysia/Indonesia who are growing the palm oil and processing it in country. (ZERO cash outflow)
There is tons of corruption in Indonesia. And some of the most corrupted people there are the generals (why do you think there are so many of them) Hence that is why I believe that they have the money, and can pass any possible parlimentary law to procure the equipment.
Despite having the troubles, the Exxon Mobil plant is still able to process the natural gas. I do admit that it is on a reduced capacity, mut none the less, its only temporary (a few years is still temporary compared to the life of their contract)
You may be right that the oil may not be used for barter trade, but I don't see why not .. after all, Pertamina, who is the Indonesian Oil Company is able to do the trading. They can sell the oil directly to India at barter trade prices, and hence both sides get a good deal. -
Do not underestimate the "true value" of Indonesia. By right with all these resources, Indonesian people should deserve higher standard of living, like Brunei.
Some figures for your brian cells....too many to list them out
Irian Jaya - the world largest gold, copper and other weird precious metal deposits (Freeport operate the world largest gold mine est 400 billion USD of gold just for a single glasburg mine). This piece of virgin land is thought to hold a huge proportion of the world gold reserve.
Arch - tons and tons of natural gas and oil.
Java - Sulphur and other odd resources to make your explosives
You may ask why they got so much free earthly resources and the answer is their woes is also their gains. You see Indonesia happens to lie in the rings of fire and all those "pukes" from inner earth spill out to the surfaces from time to time, killing the people and replenish the natural resources (gold, copper, sulphur ores..)
BTW me thinking of going to Irian Jaya (quite a scenic place) to hunt for gold, hope I won't get eaten by native headhunters -
Indonesia is rich in natural resources. However, there is so much corruption there that the money is not going to the poor people. The rich are very rich (I read that some Indonesian tycoon actually owns Lambourgini company) The Chinese in Indonesia has loads more money than we Singapore Chinese. So the problem is not that Indonesia is poor, its a mismatch in the living standards of their people.
Also, there are logistic problems that will be nightmare for anyone. Imagine trying to distribute rice to all their islands. And just getting a maid from Indonesia is a nightmare .. my Malaysian relatives maid came from some small village in Java, she travelled to Jakarta, then to the west tip of Java, then took a ferry to Sumatra, up to some port, and a ferry to Malacca, and finally to KL. That trip took 1 week. So unlike Singapore (which is small) and KL (which has nice highways), the Indonesians have more logistical problems.
Compared to Brunei, of course Indonesia looks bad. But I just had some friends in from Brunei. The picture is not that bright there also. Although the bruneians have a PPP GDP per cap equal to Singapore (or even higher), BSB is like Kuala Trengganu or Kota Bahru. Boring. People there are even more conservative than the PAS members. its because the Brunei sultanate suppress all opposition that they don't complain.
When Malaysia banned Daredevil, the Brunei govt followed suit. And for good measure, banned The Matrix II & III (because the evil villian is named Allah I think)
Also, there may be no taxes and health care is free and the oil there can last 50 more years .. but already, there is something brewing there. Did you know that Bruneians who are sent to Britain on govt scholarship are also discriminated? Those close to the royal family can study degrees. Those bright but without any connection can only do "higher diplomas" .. talk about discrimination.