RSN vs RMN
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i still can come to get it why they wants to buy second hand useless subsOriginally posted by foxtrout8:Once upon a time , having Frigate is a dream , once upon a time , no one expect Singapore to survive through the Millenium.
Surely wat i said isnt a dream , it have some facture considerations on it. Singapore was once extremely interested with the Visby , the PVs will have to go one day ( 5 to 10 yrs time?? )so.... Our Submarine force is still at infancy , new plateforms should have been evaluated. It isnt a dream , but a question of when will the replacement be made , wat will be the weaponary......... -
U mean the Sjoormen???Originally posted by LaserGod:i still can come to get it why they wants to buy second hand useless subs
I believe its for training , to gain very good operational experience , as an evaluating plateform , as a plateform for undersea warfare studies in DSTA and its rather good in terms of the cheap:efficent ratio....... -
so u mean they did be considering purchasing better subs?
in how long time will they do so leh? -
Maybe done... , i dun think they will report so soon. We have the training subs b4 the Malaysian have an operational sub , and have our attack subs after knowing wat the Malaysian purchase......thats smart. Same goes to the New Generation Fighters and the Delta Frigate.....lolX.Originally posted by LaserGod:so u mean they did be considering purchasing better subs?
in how long time will they do so leh? -
so navy getting new subs?
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> double posting <
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Of course......u wont wanna see the Sjoormen fighting the Scorpenes....unless DSTA do something abt it or else it is always better to get 4 more new subs.Originally posted by LaserGod:so navy getting new subs? -
sjoormen vs scorpene then bye bye sjoormen liaoOriginally posted by foxtrout8:Of course......u wont wanna see the Sjoormen fighting the Scorpenes....unless DSTA do something abt it or else it is always better to get 4 more new subs. -
Very hard to say.....we have to see the skills of the scorpene crew first...anyway , to compare it head to head , the Scorpene have a upper hand lah.Originally posted by LaserGod:sjoormen vs scorpene then bye bye sjoormen liao
LolX......u seems to be very interested abt the Submarines..... -
speaking of submarines, anybod knows how to get selected for the submariner coz in RSN
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with respect to the PVs having insufficient space... i would like to know...
how can a MGB which is smaller then the PVs (45meter vs 55 meter) be having insufficient space to be armed with harpoon and barak when the MGB (being the smaller vessel) can actually carry 2 mistral, 4 harpoon and probably 2 more gabriel all at the same time??
for a nation that loves to pack practically every system and as many weapons as possible onto a single platform as can be noted in the MGB, MCV, falcons and the Fokker 50 MPA....
the PVs.... seems.... rather... under-equipped/armed... comparatively of course to other RSN vessels....
secondly... isit true that the delta frigate is actually 3000 ton?? that would make those 6 frigate the largest between RSN and RMN right? (not includint LSTs of course)
our MCV with 600 tons already have so much firepower... i really like to see how they intend to armed a 3000 ton frigate.... with so much more space.... maybe 24 harpoons/exocet? 32 baraks? 18 torps?? or maybe even LALEE cruise missile??
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Ya right , the PV is lightly armed. However i will see the PV as a vessel specialising on Anti-submarine warfare in a battle group of MCVs , MGBs and LSTs. I believe it will be protected by the MCVs and her Mistrals while the crew concentrate on undersea detection , while the others on their own speciality.Originally posted by tripwire:with respect to the PVs having insufficient space... i would like to know...
how can a MGB which is smaller then the PVs (45meter vs 55 meter) be having insufficient space to be armed with harpoon and barak when the MGB (being the smaller vessel) can actually carry 2 mistral, 4 harpoon and probably 2 more gabriel all at the same time??
for a nation that loves to pack practically every system and as many weapons as possible onto a single platform as can be noted in the MGB, MCV, falcons and the Fokker 50 MPA....
the PVs.... seems.... rather... under-equipped/armed... comparatively of course to other RSN vessels....
secondly... isit true that the delta frigate is actually 3000 ton?? that would make those 6 frigate the largest between RSN and RMN right? (not includint LSTs of course)
our MCV with 600 tons already have so much firepower... i really like to see how they intend to armed a 3000 ton frigate.... with so much more space.... maybe 24 harpoons/exocet? 32 baraks? 18 torps?? or maybe even LALEE cruise missile?? -
The harpoon are for over the horizon engagement . This type of engagement is best at the Gulf of Thailand , the Andaman Sea , the South China sea. It is to engage enemy with precision , yet not foolproof. It cruise at a much faster speed ( incomprisome to the Garbiel ) thus its much harder to manually control it in packed sea lanes to avoid civilian vessels.Originally posted by LaserGod:so what are their advantage and capabilities?
The Garbiel are built for within horizon engagement. It cruise slower than the Harpoon , much lower than the Harpoon and can be easily controlled by the crew. It is best to engage enemy vessel in packed sea lanes such as the Malacca strait , the Singapore Strait.It fills the loophole if the enemy pops out suddenly close to a protected area while the Harpoon isnt optimize to shoot.
Look at the two as a Primary weapon ( Harpoon ) and her Sidearm ( Garbiel ) on board a ship. -
btw i tot that MGBs r very old liao, and they are going to phase them out
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It is said to be going to be replace by the Delta Frigate......cannot confirm yet...Originally posted by Arena:btw i tot that MGBs r very old liao, and they are going to phase them out -
I believe there are a couple of misunderstanding of RSN in this current thread. And here is my 2 cents worth:
RSN decision to purchase the Sjoormens:
1. The Sjoormen SSKs are not junk. They are good return on investment.
The ex- Royal swedish SSKs were relatively afforable compared to the new SSK. The Swedes were ready to send the SSK to the junkyard and melt them as scrap metals. They are still relatively modern SSKs considering that the Swedes upgraded them all in the late 80s/early 90s with a cut-down version of the A17 combat system. Kockum modernised them further with the tropicalisation program as well as upgrading some other systems including the combat system (I read something about the SSK upgrade program in either the Kockum website or a defence technology web site).
2. Not justifiable to purchase SSk yet.
With the cost of a current new SSK at around 300 million USD or more, it is very expensive to acquire new subs these days. 300 million will almost buy you a squadron of F-16C/Ds (a F-16C Block 52 cost about 25mil each). Buying 4 new SSKs will cost more than 1.2 billion USD . That is a very hefty price to pay using the tax-payers money. Given RSN did not much sub-surface warfare skills and experience, the immediate steps is to build these experience and skills up first. Buying new SSKs and using them for training purposes half their life is not wise to use up some much money. RSN also does not have a very big purse. The money saved is perhaps evidence in the acquiring of the very advanced stealth Delta frigates. This, to me is money better spent. RSN already posses significant experience and skills in surface warfare.
3. Not ready to specify SSK requirements.
RSN does not have to experience to set the requirements for a SSK fleet purchase. As the local environment differs significantly from that of the Baltics or the Mediterranean, simply buying either the Swedish A19, German U212 or even the French Scorpene SSKs are silly and unwise. RSN, and in fact all branches of the Singapore Armed Forces, have very good practice of specifying exactly what requirements they want when they purchase new equipments. They have to meet the specific needs of the armed forces. Similarly, purchasing a fleet of new SSKs would require RSN to have significant knowledge about the theatre of operation for their subs. Not having operated any submarines since the inception of the RSN, it is wiser to acquire such skills and experience from old subs, then they are in the position of being able to know what they need and how they will use the subs.
4. Politcial reasons.
As we have all witness, getting 4 old subs already generated silly comments from the then Indo president Gus Dus. Had RSN purchased 4 new SSKs, I think other neighours might join in the chorus. RSN and in fact Singapore, does not want to be seen obtaining significant capabilities especially when those capabilities can be viewed as offensive by others. Singapore would rather wait out for Malaysia to acquire new SSKs before embarking to purchase new SSKs ourselves. The policies also filter through to the delayed deployment of the F16s, Apaches, etc. RSN also did not purchase any frigates until RMN has their Leikus. This is a wise decision as by the time, RMN has their SSKs delievered, RSN would have significant sub warfare capabilities. I would dare to say that the RSN SSKs would be more potent that RMN SSKs. This can only be proven during war-games. Don't forget that Royal Australian Navy have, on a few occassions, penetrated USN carrier battle group and "sunk" US carriers with their SSKs. Australian SSKs (even the Collin class) is by no means more advanced than the USN SSNs like the Improved Los Angeles class. The RAN sub crews skills plus the smart way of operating, the yet fully capable Collin class subs, enabled them to defeat more modern subs. Training is very very important. When RSN submariners have acquired significant skills, then RSN is ready to acquire modern SSKs.
With these reasons, I cannot agree more with the Sjoormen purchases. I think it is a very wise and carefully thought of decision.
Now, on the issue on Delta frigates replacing the MGBs, it is only an official statement but by no mean reflect what is really going on in RSN. The MGBs is nearly 40 years old. Even after the early 90 upgrades, they have shown significant ageing and is time for retirement. At the same time, RSN needs to upgrade their capabilities especially in anti-air and anti-surface warfares. It is both a natural maturing of RSN plus the significant increased threat in the reason that prompted the pruchasing of the Deltas. As discussed before, the money RSN would have saved purchasing the Sjoormens instead of 4 new SSKs would mean that the limited budget could be spent on getting 6 proven Stealth frigates. The plan to acquire up to 8 NGPVs where shelf because of some unexplained issues, which I personally believe is because of the sales of Kockum, plus the fact that Visby is still not operational yet whereas LaFayette is. I also suspected that the French are more willingly to share their Stealth technologies with Singapore.
The Deltas were not built as a direct replacement of the MGBs. Rather, the retirement of the MGBs and the introduction of the Deltas were designed to conincide because of limited manpower in RSN. RSN cannot afford to add extra Navy personels to man the new frigates without retiring the MGBs crews.
The operation doctrine of the MGBs and the Deltas will be so different. The armed escort role and the more fast attack guerrilla tactics employed by the MGBs will be taken over by the MCVs whereas the Deltas will replace the MCVs as the core/central of the main strike Flotilla. It will be tasked primary for anti-air, anti-surface and anti-subsurface roles with other strikes vessels supporting the Deltas.
I still believe that RSN should acquire another 6 stealth corvettes to supplement the Victory class. My ideal would be a 6 vessels from ST Marine 81m Stealth OPVs, Israeli Saar 5 or a German Meko 100 variant.
As for the (A)PVs, they were never built as Fast Attack crafts. Heck, their top speed is not even 30kts. They are built as a glorified patrol crafts as a replacement of the old patrol vessels in RSN. They also have significant war-fighting capabilities (a very capable Elta /M-2228(X) radar and combat system onboard. The Fearless class are fitted for but not with the Grabriel SSMs. During war-time, the 4 Gabriel launchers would be quickly fitted to each Fearless ship to add significant war-fighting capabilities. Furthermore, RSN built the Fearless as a offshore Patrol vessel first, and war-fighting ship second and not the other way round.
Ok, I have written so much about RSN. Any comment welcome
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For those of you would are interested to know more about RSN, there is an article about it at:
http://www.netspace.net.au/~navyleag/fc_07ros.htm
enjoy. -
Volunteer or ask for Transfer.That was how my friend went from naval diver to submarineer.It's quite worth it cuz your shipboard allowence increases from $200-$300 to $700.Originally posted by Arena:speaking of submarines, anybod knows how to get selected for the submariner coz in RSN -
Well said. But i believe that Steath Corvettee shld be use to replace the MGB than to replace the MCV. The MCV still can delivery a blow onto the enemy. Imagine it, currently the MCV is to deal with the Lekius , i believe its still valuable , however the MGB is showing its age , it shld be replace with more stealthy vessels with more independent/advance SAM and of course an improvement in punch.Originally posted by Joe Black:I
I still believe that RSN should acquire another 6 stealth corvettes to supplement the Victory class. My ideal would be a 6 vessels from ST Marine 81m Stealth OPVs, Israeli Saar 5 or a German Meko 100 variant. -
Yes, but ain't the MGBs being replaced by the frigates??Originally posted by foxtrout8:Well said. But i believe that Steath Corvettee shld be use to replace the MGB than to replace the MCV. The MCV still can delivery a blow onto the enemy. Imagine it, currently the MCV is to deal with the Lekius , i believe its still valuable , however the MGB is showing its age , it shld be replace with more stealthy vessels with more independent/advance SAM and of course an improvement in punch. -
The frigate may jus be an expansion in the RSN whereby the MGBs can truely be replace by stealth corvette. This will look more like an apple for an apple.......Originally posted by 21Alpha:Yes, but ain't the MGBs being replaced by the frigates?? -
yah.... maybe MGBs dun need to be replaced afterall since the RSN now are recruiting more ppl with their intensive recruitment campaign and more ppl signing on due to bad economic times, manpower will be there...Originally posted by foxtrout8:The frigate may jus be an expansion in the RSN whereby the MGBs can truely be replace by stealth corvette. This will look more like an apple for an apple.......
i oredi know many of my poly frens sign on liao.... damn lotsa -
i heard that for every navy post opened... there were as many as 10 applicants if not more...!!!
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equipment-wise, rmn ain't that bad, but rsn edges out slightly as far as armaments are concerned.
yes they've got more slocs to defend, thus the need for bigger ships despite their frigates carrying roughly the same armament as rsn's coverttes. (more tonnage for rmn)
rsn can deploy more ASM's than rmn can at anyone time. however, rmn has quite a number of small craft armed with guns. . . rsn doesn't have this
of course, singapore will probably get the coast guard boats up gunned with mortars and more 0.5 cal. to fight these smaller craft. . .
and singapore has more subs than m'sia and while the subs may not be as advanced, i have read that the tropical waters in this region makes it very difficult for subs to detect each other. thus, this should level the playing field abit for singapore. this basically means that singapore posseses the upper hand in subs cos rsn can have subs deployed more often than rmn can. . . i doubt it rmn can sustain subs deployed 24 hours round the clock with only 2 subs. . .
all things said, i believe alot of naval battles in this region will be fought more with large calibre guns and precise wire-guided missiles (gabriel) and less with long range ones like the harpoon or exocet.
and hehheh, i'm finally back at sgmilitary forum. . . . probably won't be back till next week after my chinese o level prelims. . .