Why do I always fail when shooting with sar 21?
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Im from NCC,so I went for this IMT and everytime I shoot the bullet just goes somewhere else around the target.I also find it hard to keep my eyes aligned with the scope.How to aim properly?
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Aim properly ? So you're still in secondary sch right?
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1) Did you zero your rifle properly? If you never zeroed it, the last user might be a real left or right cross eye and your rounds will head somewhere else. 2) Did you allow for droppage? Bullets travel in an arc, so if you're aiming far away, aim higher a bit. 100m Direct shoot, 200m aim at neck, 300m aim at top of head. 3) Did you use a support to steady your rifle or just your arm? If it's only your arm, you'll suffer from "muscle twitch" that causes your rifle to jerk all over. Find a support, either a sandbag or the floor and rest the rifle on it, don't let it rest on your arm, then rest your arm on it to lock it in place. If you have to hand stabilize, ground your elbow on something immobile and try not to use it to take the weight directly. (i.e try to use the bone to support instead of muscle). 4) Hold your breath before pulling the trigger. Most I know breath in, I prefer to exhale, gets rid of the sponginess of the air in your chest. Either way works. 5) Repeatable stance. Find a stance you're comfortable with and repeat properly so you'll get predictable shot flight profile. If you zeroed your rifle with butt on your deltoid, then shot with the butt somewhere else the second time, the round won't be landing where your scope said it will. 6) Exercise. lol. Build up your biceps and especially your wrists. Weight training helps. The stronger your muscles there, the less "muscle twitch" that will affect you when you fire from the shoulder. The best marksman I ever saw, drew in his free time. Freehand, arm above the paper, pencil at 90 degrees. Hellishly strong wrist, his rifle didn't twitch much. BTW... isn't IMT that stupid computer game?
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What are your instructors for, if not for you to ask them.
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practise. not everyone are born to be a sharpshooter. if you are no good with it, practise till you are perfect. aaron kwok was a worst dancer when he joined the dancing class, but he aspire to be top of the dancer in his class when he graduated. he did and now he is a very good dancer.
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
practise. not everyone are born to be a sharpshooter. if you are no good with it, practise till you are perfect. aaron kwok was a worst dancer when he joined the dancing class, but he aspire to be top of the dancer in his class when he graduated. he did and now he is a very good dancer.
nice to hear good encouragement words from people like u.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
nice to hear good encouragement words from people like u.
dun mention it. if you are bad at anything, just practise it. no one is born to be an eloquent speaker or playing football isnt it. if you are, you are a genius, which is exceptional, not the norm.
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
dun mention it. if you are bad at anything, just practise it. no one is born to be an eloquent speaker or playing football isnt it. if you are, you are a genius, which is exceptional, not the norm.
yes
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i remembered the time I went for live range when I was in NCC...was so happy I managed to shoot all the targets...ended up I shot my friends target and she got marksman because of it
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lol that happens in NS too.
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Originally posted by Underpaid:
1) Did you zero your rifle properly? If you never zeroed it, the last user might be a real left or right cross eye and your rounds will head somewhere else.
2) Did you allow for droppage? Bullets travel in an arc, so if you’re aiming far away, aim higher a bit. 100m Direct shoot, 200m aim at neck, 300m aim at top of head.
3) Did you use a support to steady your rifle or just your arm? If it’s only your arm, you’ll suffer from “muscle twitch” that causes your rifle to jerk all over.
Find a support, either a sandbag or the floor and rest the rifle on it, don’t let it rest on your arm, then rest your arm on it to lock it in place. If you have to hand stabilize, ground your elbow on something immobile and try not to use it to take the weight directly. (i.e try to use the bone to support instead of muscle).
4) Hold your breath before pulling the trigger. Most I know breath in, I prefer to exhale, gets rid of the sponginess of the air in your chest. Either way works.
5) Repeatable stance. Find a stance you’re comfortable with and repeat properly so you’ll get predictable shot flight profile. If you zeroed your rifle with butt on your deltoid, then shot with the butt somewhere else the second time, the round won’t be landing where your scope said it will.
6) Exercise. lol. Build up your biceps and especially your wrists. Weight training helps. The stronger your muscles there, the less “muscle twitch” that will affect you when you fire from the shoulder. The best marksman I ever saw, drew in his free time. Freehand, arm above the paper, pencil at 90 degrees. Hellishly strong wrist, his rifle didn’t twitch much.
BTW… isn’t IMT that stupid computer game?
SAR-21 no zeroing required.
SAR-21 dont have a two click trigger, ... good for those who snap trigger.
other basics remain the same...
note: for those of you who didnt know... the targets size for SAR-21 was smaller then the one used for M-16...figure for figure.
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.... tripwire.. no zeroing means the barrels come out of the factory straight aligned, NOT that the previous user did not calibrate it. After someone has used it, it is definately NOT aligned. You ever been to range before? And I can definately say the targets used for both are similar sized. The only major difference is at 300m, you do 2 Figure 11, 1 Figure 12 instead of 3 Figure 11. And SAR-21 DOES have a 2 stage trigger, the second stage is where you hear the "click" when you do your shear check. I'm also assuming that you're talking about the part about holding your breath when firing, that's nothing to do with trigger stage, more to do with inhaling and exhaling changes your physical size and hence your stance. trip, you sure you used the SAR-21 before?
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Originally posted by Underpaid:
.... tripwire.. no zeroing means the barrels come out of the factory straight aligned, NOT that the previous user did not calibrate it. After someone has used it, it is definately NOT aligned. You ever been to range before?
And I can definately say the targets used for both are similar sized. The only major difference is at 300m, you do 2 Figure 11, 1 Figure 12 instead of 3 Figure 11.
And SAR-21 DOES have a 2 stage trigger, the second stage is where you hear the “click” when you do your shear check. I’m also assuming that you’re talking about the part about holding your breath when firing, that’s nothing to do with trigger stage, more to do with inhaling and exhaling changes your physical size and hence your stance.
trip, you sure you used the SAR-21 before?
brother, i am sar-21 and m-16 trainned. i guaranteed you SAR-21 is factory zeroed and you can share the same rifle between different firer without "re-zeroing", my unit last firing we swap rifle like crazy among us... no problem at all.
there is NO 2 "click" trigger in SAR-21, have you handle a M-16 before?
and the targets meant for the SAR-21 and M-16 is definitely one size smaller... i know because i have seen both targets side by side... next time you got chance go ask your instructor at the IMT to show you.
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Originally posted by tripwire:
brother, i am sar-21 and m-16 trainned. i guaranteed you SAR-21 is factory zeroed and you can share the same rifle between different firer without "re-zeroing", my unit last firing we swap rifle like crazy among us... no problem at all.
there is NO 2 "click" trigger in SAR-21, have you handle a M-16 before?
and the targets meant for the SAR-21 and M-16 is definitely one size smaller... i know because i have seen both targets side by side... next time you got chance go ask your instructor at the IMT to show you.
This is missing the point. The rifle's zero comes pre-adjusted from the factory but can be adjusted. If someone has messed with it, it has to be re-zeroed.
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Originally posted by alize:
This is missing the point. The rifle's zero comes pre-adjusted from the factory but can be adjusted. If someone has messed with it, it has to be re-zeroed.
the rifle is factory zeroed, soldiers are not allowed to "zero" the sar-21 assuming even if they can do so in the first place.
secondly, in order to zero the rifle, you need live rounds to do so... unlike M-16 range, SAR-21 dont have live round zero at the range, so how to "zero"?
if your rifle is truely zero off... most officer will simply pick up a spare rifle and pass it to you... or ask you take your buddy's SAR-21.
not good enough? grab the SAR-21 of the marksmen lah...
still bobo? get your freaking eye checked!
another thing about aiming the SAR-21 , other then the basics and the cross on the target. make sure you have a complete clear scope view, if any part of the scope (circular) view is slightly "black", it means your eye and the cross are not aiming straight.
i usually hold the SAR-21 and see through first, check if i am holding the rifle properly, and when i fire, i constantly have to remind myself i am no longer holding the M-16 and should forget the two click trigger.
after afew range with SAR-21, i can only say, i love SAR-21... hang the M-16 and the stupid carbon .. yeah!!
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..... ........ Were you ever in NS? You didn't zero the SAR using the Canadian Bull? When I used the NS rifle during reservist ICT, it shot one grouping high. Which means one click down. The adjustments knobs are on the top of the scope for L/R, RHS of the scope for High/Low. The Marksmen 3x scope were zeroed using Canadian Bull at 200. You tell me there is no "2nd point" for the SAR? Did you ever do a shear check during reassembly before? The 1st point is the point where you start pulling the trigger, the 2nd is at the "click" point for the shear. You want to semi-auto rapid fire on the SAR, you DON'T release the trigger all the way, just past the bite point, then pull again. This is the most obvious proof that there IS a 2 stage trigger. "there is NO 2 "click" trigger in SAR-21, have you handle a M-16 before?" SAR and M-16, but M-16 only for BMT, then I went to M-4. "and the targets meant for the SAR-21 and M-16 is definitely one size smaller... i know because i have seen both targets side by side... next time you got chance go ask your instructor at the IMT to show you." No need. I helped them change the target boards.... If you have never zeroed a SAR, I'm thinking training standards really have dropped. What was your grouping size in the IMT/ATP?
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The SAR is zero-able, I vaguely remember doing it in my NS days. BUT there's usually no need for it as factory zeroing is good enough for the vast majority. Every year I just pick some random SAR that's probably been manhandled and dropped by countless reservists before and still hit my targets, including those at 300m.
My unit has never spent anything more than a day in the range (even in high keys), so naturally there was no time spent on zeroing. I have no idea how bad my grouping is, but I guess if I'm hitting them across all the board, it's good enough.
That's despite wearing spectacles and shooting left handed with a right handed rifle. Finally, I can justify the obscene number of hours spent in arcades shooting criminals and zombies while growing up.
I guess my point is, there's really no need to zero a SAR if all you're hitting is 100m and nearer in the range. The target goes down whether you hit the head, the side (or even the pebbles in front the target). What's more important is the basic technique, consistency, and a decent spotter in the rare case you need to combat zero.
Or you can hope the idiot marksman in the next lane keeps hitting your targets.
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I'm kinda late, but to the OP in short :
1) hold the rifle against your shoulder correctly (ask the instructors how) and consistently (practise).
2) Exhale slowly and hold the rifle at eye level, then hold your breath, aim, and take the shot. Don't take too long, as your hands might begin to tremble.
3) Squeeze the trigger steadily. Quick pulls or snapping can throw your aim off without you noticing.
4) Practise holding a rifle and aiming with it. Since you're in NCC, I guess there's the arcade ... =p
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One of my ICT guy who was excused heavy load /range etc etc for first 8 years (just go lobo for first 8 years ICT,), went for technical handling and IMT range for SAR21 on the 9th ICT cos no more excuses anymore. and he went for actual range (1st time do shooting using live rounds) on 10th ICT and he got 20 out of 20... ... The whole company (even our OC/2IC) were very surprised... ... and no zeroing was done at all (trainers say SAR21 no need to be zero)..
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ATP or BTP? Well, guess my unit was the kind where we were bloody competitive, my grouping was 8.6 cm diameter at 100m, the next guy I was trying to catch up to was 8.4. That artist I mentioned? 4-5cm grouping. Of course you can use the SAR without zeroing, but you'll have to hope the last guy did'nt mess up the windage, and shooting is definately more accurate with something custom calibrated to your eye. Our fam shoot, I was hitting Fig 15 at 300. Just have to aim at imaginary lower hip level. The round will drop by almost half body length. Couldn't bear to lose to the rest. :)
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Originally posted by tripwire:
the rifle is factory zeroed, soldiers are not allowed to "zero" the sar-21 assuming even if they can do so in the first place.
secondly, in order to zero the rifle, you need live rounds to do so... unlike M-16 range, SAR-21 dont have live round zero at the range, so how to "zero"?
if your rifle is truely zero off... most officer will simply pick up a spare rifle and pass it to you... or ask you take your buddy's SAR-21.
not good enough? grab the SAR-21 of the marksmen lah...
still bobo? get your freaking eye checked!
another thing about aiming the SAR-21 , other then the basics and the cross on the target. make sure you have a complete clear scope view, if any part of the scope (circular) view is slightly "black", it means your eye and the cross are not aiming straight.
i usually hold the SAR-21 and see through first, check if i am holding the rifle properly, and when i fire, i constantly have to remind myself i am no longer holding the M-16 and should forget the two click trigger.
after afew range with SAR-21, i can only say, i love SAR-21... hang the M-16 and the stupid carbon .. yeah!!
SAR-21 cheerleader, insisting the SAR-21 can't be zeroed even when everyone says otherwise and finally saying that zeroing is not allowed even if it can't be done. Anything to elevate the SAR-21.
"my unit last firing we swap rifle like crazy among us" I wonder if that's illegal, or if it has any purpose at all.
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SAR 21 you close one eye also can get sniper badge
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Let's settle this factory zero issue. As expected, the SAR-21 has been discussed to death before. Found this old thread on sgf: http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/324237
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
- Apparently storywolf thinks that factory zero will last field
conditions over prolonged periods.
T-rex - you comparing how good a rifles is or are you comparing how you and your grunt friends manage to bang up rifles better then other army ? If you are issue with handme down generation of SAR-21 that get knock by your precessors and you around till zeroing gone - then rezeroing is the only options. Frankly zeroing does not goes that easi, but most likely your case is really old hand me down sar-21 - which really is knock by you till kapo type !!!
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The point is, the factory zero slips and becomes useless, and in the tactical sense you go to war with a personal weapon, not with a weapon you find in a crate or on the floor like in a video game.
Your personal weapon is a weapon you train with and have to go through field conditions with.
And this is not under extremely harsh conditions or torture testing but routine use.
So if something like "factory zero" can't last the operational lifetime of the weapon, what does this say about it except it is a gimmick? In fact plenty of weapons with intergrated scopes could claim "factory zero" as a nice feature, and as a matter of fact these weapons are factory zeroed.
Bt they don't make a big point about it because they know by common sense such a thing is a gimmick.
In Reality - the fact still stand - if I need to ship brand new rifles out to battlefield or reconditional factory rezeroed rifles - to soldiers who can open the crate and shoot with it without zeroing.
In reality- the bigger and more important fact stands that soldiers will have to use their rifle in harsh conditions and over prolonged periods, and practially speaking the zero will slip.
So what's the point? More importantly, "factory zero" does not take into account the fact that each and every shooter is not the same. To consistently shoot with your
Why not - that is still an advantage, which few others can claim !!!
Getting your facts wrong again?
Virtually all other modern firearms are factory-zeroed, but once again they don't make a fuss of it. The SAR-21 is hardly new to this practice. Your G36 comes off the assembly line zeroed to 200 meters.
The difference was that the SAR-21 makers were silly enough to claim this weapon didn't need zeroing due to factory zeroing, which was patently false. Before ATP there are still zeroing shoots for the SAR-21.
This is because factory zero was never a subsitute for true zero in the first place.
- Additionally, the whole idea of "factory zero" was not so grunts
could take weapons from the box and shoot with them, but to cut
down on the zeroing time spent in the range.
This is what the literature says:
The scope is factory-zeroed, and requires minimal further zeroing to suit different users. This minimizes non-training range time to zero the weapons and maximises live-firing training hours
As for combat advantage there is practically none at all... in fact you'll be probably worse of because the "standard" zero of the sights will not suit you as perfectly as a weapon that you bothered to zero on the range to your needs.
And of course the zero of all weapons, especially new ones which have not been broken in will slip because the shooting characteristics of the weapon will change over time as it is used.
So what advantage does the factory zero give in practice? Unless the SAF is in the practice of issuing non-personal weapons to their troops straight from the box and sending them into battle without time to prepare and personalize the sights to the users...
It provides none at all.
It's about the same as the lionnoisy claimed advantage of being able to carry the SAR-21 like a handbag and "run for your life"
- Apparently storywolf thinks that factory zero will last field
conditions over prolonged periods.
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here is a reply from cyperpioneer regarding SAR-21 zeroing..
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cyberpioneer Hey Freudian Slip, thanks for the comment and you're right. Perhaps we should have been a bit clearer. Unlike the M-16, the SAR21 comes from the factory ready to be used without the need for zero-ing. However, some units do zero the weapon for greater precision. Once the weapons are undergo this personalised zero-ing, they would need to be zero-ed regularly or when the weapon changes hands.Monday at 8:19pm----------------------------------------------------apparently my ICT unit was not that super... that we need to customize, or maybe because my was a reservist unit, so personalised "zeroing" is not required?anyway..., when my reservist unit first starts to convert to SAR-21, there werent enough to go around... only 20 SAR-21 were made available for every company of men and officer.nontheless we went happily to our first live firing with the 20 SAR-21 rifle we have.given the fact that there were more men then there were rifle, its pretty obvious we have to share our "wives" and gang rape them massively at the range. ( i would like to see how long can 10 men could rape a single M-16 before the rifle falls apart... hahaha)the results? at the end of the ICT briefing....my CO reported that every company scored far far better results using the "factory zeroed" SAR-21, when compared to our previous live firing with "SUPER PERSONALIZED CUSTOMIZED ZEROED" M-16.since then, we never look back... at the M-16 (good riddance muaahahaha).
i would like to ask all of you people here...
when was the last time your rifle fired around one thoudsand round at a single live firing range?
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cos you are shooting 21 stars. Shoot star right. Confirm fail lo.