Jungle warfare in Singapore?

• On the way

  22 May 03, 17:04

  Moonstriker,
  
  U Said ".... Lets say a division of sg armour rolling happily and unharrassed on the NS highway... the defensive units can just wait at the jungled areas on both sides of the highway and wait till most of our tanks are surrounded and in range of their units. Launch an ambush... tada... 1 division goes kaput.<<
  
  I got news for u, how do you think this division of Sg armour can even get access to the NS highway without going thru or neutralizing JB? U can't. They are not going to wait for u in the jungle. Wake up, they will hit u when u are transiting thru their BUA, JB. W/O going too much into detail. in a premptive strike situation, 21st Div will be airlifted via CH-47, Pumas, etc. into holding line or Mersing line (whatever you want to call it. ) Because they are a light RDF, they can only hold on to the pumping station, reservoir, and blocking line only until they are out of ammo, and or are relieved by heavier units. These heavier units have to either take the port and offload there, while at the same time go thru the causeway right thru JB. Guess what, all of that is urban area. In the meantime, 21st Div have to face counter attack to its front from Mat units coming down from the north, while at the same time, the defenders of JB will also be launching attacks into their rear. U still want to fight in the jungle? What jungle? Ask any tankee here, but if I was a SAF armour unit going to the relief of 21st Div. I want a 50 ton MBT to bash thru JB, not some 18 ton Bionix light tank piece of crap. I want my tank to be able to take repeated RPG hits and clear the streets with quick sheer brute force so that other relief units can pass thru. . I can tell you have never served in an armour unit from the "no need for 50 ton MBT" comment. Furthermore, you want to cut the snake head from the body by capturing the command and control staff, General HQ, the Sultan, top UMNO officials, etc. U think all these people are hiding in the jungle. U wish. They will be hiding in their heavily defended air con palaces, barracks, buildings. etc. U have to go in and get them, once again, FIBUA.
• NathanG5

  22 May 03, 20:32

  Originally posted by On the way:

  Moonstriker,
  
  U Said ".... Lets say a division of sg armour rolling happily and unharrassed on the NS highway... the defensive units can just wait at the jungled areas on both sides of the highway and wait till most of our tanks are surrounded and in range of their units. Launch an ambush... tada... 1 division goes kaput.<<
  
  I got news for u, how do you think this division of Sg armour can even get access to the NS highway without going thru or neutralizing JB? U can't. They are not going to wait for u in the jungle. Wake up, they will hit u when u are transiting thru their BUA, JB. W/O going too much into detail. in a premptive strike situation, 21st Div will be airlifted via CH-47, Pumas, etc. into holding line or Mersing line (whatever you want to call it. ) Because they are a light RDF, they can only hold on to the pumping station, reservoir, and blocking line only until they are out of ammo, and or are relieved by heavier units. These heavier units have to either take the port and offload there, while at the same time go thru the causeway right thru JB. Guess what, all of that is urban area. In the meantime, 21st Div have to face counter attack to its front from Mat units coming down from the north, while at the same time, the defenders of JB will also be launching attacks into their rear. U still want to fight in the jungle? What jungle? Ask any tankee here, but if I was a SAF armour unit going to the relief of 21st Div. I want a 50 ton MBT to bash thru JB, not some 18 ton Bionix light tank piece of crap. I want my tank to be able to take repeated RPG hits and clear the streets with quick sheer brute force so that other relief units can pass thru. . I can tell you have never served in an armour unit from the "no need for 50 ton MBT" comment. Furthermore, you want to cut the snake head from the body by capturing the command and control staff, General HQ, the Sultan, top UMNO officials, etc. U think all these people are hiding in the jungle. U wish. They will be hiding in their heavily defended air con palaces, barracks, buildings. etc. U have to go in and get them, once again, FIBUA.

  hey dude after a few posting abt tis issue..
  SAF still train us in FIBUA..its not tat they never did..they do..u sounded like as if SAF dun train us in FIBUA at all..
  in WAR anything is possible..they way u put it..its like no way..impossible..blah blah blah..
  combine both ur logic n our logic together..we got a all round soldier...after u take down JB..u still got jungle up ahead rite..after the Jungle there still KL...rite?
  so conclusion is we nid to excel in both jungle warfare n FIBUA
  btw..ive done countless FIBUA during my unit...same thing when im in ATEC..jungle warfare
• On the way

  26 May 03, 11:13

  Nathan,
  I also went thru FIBUA training. Its crap. Unless u receive different training than me. FIBUA village is not the real thing. U are dreaming if you think that even remotely prepares you for FIBUA. HAve u cleared a 10 storey building or higher? Did u go into a downtown type area with a platoon of tanks to clear it out? Look at your typical HDB estate, and picture enemy holding up in every building on every floor, fortiifed with supplies and ammo and waiting for u. Did you train for that? No you didn't. Don;t do a disservice to yourself. Your countless FIBUA during NS don't amount to a bag of beans.
  
  

  Originally posted by NathanG5:

  hey dude after a few posting abt tis issue..
  SAF still train us in FIBUA..its not tat they never did..they do..u sounded like as if SAF dun train us in FIBUA at all..
  in WAR anything is possible..they way u put it..its like no way..impossible..blah blah blah..
  combine both ur logic n our logic together..we got a all round soldier...after u take down JB..u still got jungle up ahead rite..after the Jungle there still KL...rite?
  so conclusion is we nid to excel in both jungle warfare n FIBUA
  btw..ive done countless FIBUA during my unit...same thing when im in ATEC..jungle warfare

• dkhoo

  26 May 03, 12:34

  Seriously, On The Way, name one conflict where there was extensive combat in a modern CBD type area, with 30+ storey buildings side-by-side for miles, like you describe. Stalingrad was hell, and it was not as built up as a run-of-the-mill HDB estate. The USMC was put through the meat grinder at Hue, Vietnam, and that town would not even be considered suburban in Singapore. The townships in the Occupied Territories are shanty towns in comparison to a modern city.
  
  To be honest, no one has the slightest clue how to practically wage war in a modern BUA against a determined opponent. The FIBUA training we receive is already extremely good by the standard of any army in the world, it is just that the FIBUA mission is too big. I do not think any army would know its head from its ass if it were forced to FIBUA in Singapore or KL. It has never been done before. There is no precedent. Do you need a 3 to 1 attacking ratio? 10 to 1? 100 to 1? Nobody knows.
  
  That is why the plan is to bypass these urban centres. Your 50 or even 70 ton MBT is not going to bash through these operational hellholes, On The Way. It will die like everything else. If we FIBUA, it will only be for smaller, more manageable provincial towns and villages. The only things entering a major BUAs from the SAF will be shells, bombs and propaganda leaflets. Anything else would be a crazy gamble.
  
  Talk of capturing KL is just that, talk. If the Malaysians wanted to fight, it would be impossible with the resources of the SAF without blasting the city to the ground. At the best, the threat of overwhelming brutality would push them to the bargaining table, but it would not endear us to the rest of the world. Nightmare scenarios no matter how you cut it. That is the reality, and no wunderpanzer is going to change it.
• NathanG5

  26 May 03, 14:09

  Originally posted by On the way:

  Nathan,
  I also went thru FIBUA training. Its crap. Unless u receive different training than me. FIBUA village is not the real thing. U are dreaming if you think that even remotely prepares you for FIBUA. HAve u cleared a 10 storey building or higher? Did u go into a downtown type area with a platoon of tanks to clear it out? Look at your typical HDB estate, and picture enemy holding up in every building on every floor, fortiifed with supplies and ammo and waiting for u. Did you train for that? No you didn't. Don;t do a disservice to yourself. Your countless FIBUA during NS don't amount to a bag of beans.
  
  

  dude..i guess its all add up to NS training is useless rite?
  dude i dun disservice myself..how many Fibua u went thru?
  the present doctrine use for FIbua is the same context wif Israel..
  they were gd at Fibua..unless ur telling me IDF also bullshitting..dude i can also tell ur dreaming...unless ur tat stupid to understand abt FIbua..the more bigger or higher the building..the more pple u use to clear..not asking a section to clear a 10 storey building....n if u wana noe if i clear a 10 storey building before..nope..never..well.i did clear a 6 storey high building wif hundred of room...
• On the way

  26 May 03, 16:46

  dkhoo,
  I can name u more than one conflict in a CBD type area. Start with Berlin, 1945, go to Seoul, Korean war, NVA in Saigon used armour in 1975, armour used extensively in Chechnya, most recently in Basra and Baghdad. U can stand off and blast the town, but sooner or later u still have to go in and occupy it. It will be just worse ala Stalingrad and Monte Cassino with rubble all over the place creating perfect ambush positions for the defenders.
  What are u going to do, bypass JB? How? If you bypass them the defenders will hit you from behind. Okay, lets say u go into a so call "manageable provincial town", well u are so gung ho, go in with your 18 ton light tank than. The weapons they are going to use on u are still the same as in a CBD type area. I will take a real MBT every where.
  All I know are the facts:
  1) 16 US Army M1s were disabled in the last Iraq war. (not counting USMC M1s)
  2) No crew man died, as no rounds penetrated. Only mobility kills
  3) Many M1s were hit with everything from every RPGs, 125mm HEAT, 57mm cannon, etc. Most of them still running around in battle.
  Challenger performance pretty much the same.
  If your 18 ton light tank can perform as above than I will gladly get into one.
  
  

  
  Originally posted by dkhoo:

  Seriously, On The Way, name one conflict where there was extensive combat in a modern CBD type area, with 30+ storey buildings side-by-side for miles, like you describe. Stalingrad was hell, and it was not as built up as a run-of-the-mill HDB estate. The USMC was put through the meat grinder at Hue, Vietnam, and that town would not even be considered suburban in Singapore. The townships in the Occupied Territories are shanty towns in comparison to a modern city.
  
  To be honest, no one has the slightest clue how to practically wage war in a modern BUA against a determined opponent. The FIBUA training we receive is already extremely good by the standard of any army in the world, it is just that the FIBUA mission is too big. I do not think any army would know its head from its ass if it were forced to FIBUA in Singapore or KL. It has never been done before. There is no precedent. Do you need a 3 to 1 attacking ratio? 10 to 1? 100 to 1? Nobody knows.
  
  That is why the plan is to bypass these urban centres. Your 50 or even 70 ton MBT is not going to bash through these operational hellholes, On The Way. It will die like everything else. If we FIBUA, it will only be for smaller, more manageable provincial towns and villages. The only things entering a major BUAs from the SAF will be shells, bombs and propaganda leaflets. Anything else would be a crazy gamble.
  
  Talk of capturing KL is just that, talk. If the Malaysians wanted to fight, it would be impossible with the resources of the SAF without blasting the city to the ground. At the best, the threat of overwhelming brutality would push them to the bargaining table, but it would not endear us to the rest of the world. Nightmare scenarios no matter how you cut it. That is the reality, and no wunderpanzer is going to change it.

• dkhoo

  27 May 03, 09:09

  On the Way,
  
  Were there skyscrapers in Berlin in 1945? 50+ storey buildings in Saigon in 1975? Petronas Towers in Stalingrad? What about skyscrapers side by side? That is what I am talking about. Buildings that can house entire battalions with food and ammo and require divisions of our troops to capture. You tell me how to do it.
  
  The statistics from the last Gulf War are misleading. Several M1 tankers did die. They just did not die to penetration of the tank by enemy fire, which is the statistic the US Army used to make itslef look good. At least 2 tanks were set on fire when their external turret bustle-mounted fuel bladders were ruptured and leaked into the engine compartment, incinerating the crew. One crew was forced out of its disabled tank and killed while dismounted. And what about the USMC or the tank penetrated by an ATGM? So much for the mighty M1 and its metre of front armor.
  
  And of course, you neglect to mention that the Iraqis surrendered at Baghdad, so very little urban combat (more like armored drive-throughs) occurred. You also neglect to mention that the Iraqis managed to hold out against the British at Basra for three weeks and Umm Qasr for ten days despite being outnumbered more than four to one and the availability of British and American armor. Why so, if MBTs are the answer to the urban guerilla?
  
  I simply do not think armor is a panacea for the realities of urban combat. Would an MBT be better than a light tank in urban combat? Of course. I do not deny that. But do MBTs make urban combat easy? No. Sun Tzu strongly cautioned against urban combat except as a last resort. I do not think anything has changed in 2500 years. I still believe that bypassing urban centres and surrounding them with a blocking force is still a far better solution than throwing lives and equipment away assaulting buildings 200 metres tall. Yes, it will take many men to contain JB. But it would take even more men to capture it.
  
  I really enjoy these debates with you, On The Way. I hope you do not mind my tone.