Malaysia to buy 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKM, delivery by 2006
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Come across this article..... guess that for those msians for are very interested in specs take a good look at this website:http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
take a good look at this paragraph especially:
The F-15C has an air combat victory ratio of 95-0 making it one of the most effective air superiority aircraft ever developed. The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraftÂ’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.
actually even before reading this page, i have a hunch that RSAF will most probably get the EF-2000. In the run up to the RFP, the typhoons get the most coverage( why i do not know).... I remember the ST reporting a RSAF Colonel went for a test flight...ST interviewed a senoir BAe senoir official on what type of package they are offering..... next we heard that the UK govt is allowing a training detachment in UK...... i do not recall ST reporting any news coverage of rafale, eagles, superbugs, falcon and the Su-35..........
so my guess will be typhoon....... -
I have also read from other forums that the msians are claiming that su-30 are the best...... well...... sorry to burst those spec crazy msians' bubble but the best in the class should be the raptor...... the 2nd in line should be the typhoon if the stats from the previous post are reliable....... there is a difference between good and best.... su-30 is a good plane....but it is not the best....... it is the same to say that michael owen is a good striker.... but is he the best striker? you call a 4th generation plane with 3rd generation avionics suite best plane........sorry obviously this arguement is not on the same plane........
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The stats you have quoted from the BAe has long been debated by military aviation experts. Many agree that it is bias - why, BAe is not involved in the Rafale program but in the Typhoon program. Furthermore, the assumptions taken, the parameters, etc were not accurate and bias. I wonder if they actually did release their report officially for scrutiny. You will see that in the end, Typhoon and Rafale will almost be equal. They both started from the "root" - the EFA program except French pulled out and started evolving their own plan into Rafale. I am pretty sure Dassault will have stats to claim that Rafale is far more superior than Eurofighter. In fact, in 1 of the magazine I have got, Dassault almost implied that Rafale is second only to the Raptors.Originally posted by kanzer:Come across this article..... guess that for those msians for are very interested in specs take a good look at this website:http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
take a good look at this paragraph especially:
[b]
actually even before reading this page, i have a hunch that RSAF will most probably get the EF-2000. In the run up to the RFP, the typhoons get the most coverage( why i do not know).... I remember the ST reporting a RSAF Colonel went for a test flight...ST interviewed a senoir BAe senoir official on what type of package they are offering..... next we heard that the UK govt is allowing a training detachment in UK...... i do not recall ST reporting any news coverage of rafale, eagles, superbugs, falcon and the Su-35..........
so my guess will be typhoon.......
I like both Rafale and Typhoons, but in the context of the NGF program, I will go for Rafale if RSAF wants a deep strike platform that can also act as air supremacy fighter, but if A2A is the top priority, then perhaps Trenche 3 Typhoon might be a good pick - this goes with the cavet that EADS is going to deliever Trenche 3 upgrade to any Typhoon purchases, or Singapore gets some form of monetary compensation !!!
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Originally posted by kanzer:
Couple of points, if I may
Come across this article..... guess that for those msians for are very interested in specs take a good look at this website:http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
take a good look at this paragraph especially:
[b]The F-15C has an air combat victory ratio of 95-0 making it one of the most effective air superiority aircraft ever developed. The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraftÂ’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.
actually even before reading this page, i have a hunch that RSAF will most probably get the EF-2000. In the run up to the RFP, the typhoons get the most coverage( why i do not know).... I remember the ST reporting a RSAF Colonel went for a test flight...ST interviewed a senoir BAe senoir official on what type of package they are offering..... next we heard that the UK govt is allowing a training detachment in UK...... i do not recall ST reporting any news coverage of rafale, eagles, superbugs, falcon and the Su-35..........
so my guess will be typhoon.......
[/b]
1) The article is VERY outdated. The APG-63 is indeed outdated compared to the Bars set used by the Su-30, but understand this; theres at least a 20 year age gap between the 2 systems(Eagle is a 70s design). A more relistic comparison would be between the Bars and the APG-70 AESA set being fitted onto the USAF's eagles and reported on offer to RSAF. I think theres no contest that the 70 would win. If we were to compare radars with 20 year age gaps we might as well compare the Phantoms radar with the FuG sets used on German WWII nightfighters.
2) As Joe Black has mentioned, computer simulations aren't to be trusted especially used in such an environment. Theres no transparency at all in the argument, for all you know they used data from fully fuelled fully armed Rafales and F-15s against a lightly loaded Su-30 and came up with the conclusion that the Rafale and F-15 are crap against a Su-30, while using a lightly loaded Typhoon against a fully loaded Su-30 and claimed the Su-30 is crap against a Typhoon. Moral of story, with a little tweaking, a computer simulation can come up with whatever results you want it to come up with.
3) Errrmm...sorry to correct you, but Dr Tony Tan flew in a Rafale as early as Asian Aerospace 1998, and by that time it had already been reported that Singaporean delegations had been to Dassault's plant to view and test-fly the Rafale. The Typhoon never had a flying example down to Singapore, and RSAF pilots didn't fly it till 2000. As for publicity, reminds me of the time Singapore's press was waxing lyrical about the Apache, then when reports circulated that the Yanks didn't want to export Longbow radars to Singapore, the press changed tack and started waxing lyrical about the Eurocopter Tiger(Apaches greatest rival - a coincidence?) before we finally got the Apaches WITH Longbows. See a pattern emerging?
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em...tony tan has ride in a rafael...... ok...thank you for reminding me
does anyone know whether RSAF has conducted any test flight on the Su-35? -
if my memory is correct, the French govt invite Dr Tony Tan for the Paris Air Show, yr i forget liao.....
For now i can sense that next yr will b like F-15T vs Rafale vs Typhoon .......almost the same situation as the Koreans are......