National service and war is pointless.
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Originally posted by tripwire:
pick up a book on economics 101 and then serve your NS with pride.
I'm just saying that when I'm a conscript, my other projects that I'm heading will have to be put on hold, and everyone involved will lose out on their income as well. Unless someone from the team covers my duties.
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People who can afford to say we dont need NS, ironically can say that due to the sacrifices of others.
You think our neighbours do not kachiao us from time to time?
Think again.
If you still are not convinced, then I think the 4 crew who died on board RSS Courageous died in vain for the likes of your kind.
And for the matter, our NS men who have sacrificed their time, blood, all to keep you safe.
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War is of course pointless and who dun want peace. But this is like communist, a very good ideology but impossible, same thing total peace is impossible one.
NS is just a tool to scare other country only, if they really want to flatten every building in singapore all the NSmen cant really help it one. For singapore NS only can do so much, diplomacy still much more important. Go talk good to the US and lend them a navel base to park their Aircraft carrier here, this is the best deterrence.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
People who can afford to say we dont need NS, ironically can say that due to the sacrifices of others.
You think our neighbours do not kachiao us from time to time?
Think again.
If you still are not convinced, then I think the 4 crew who died on board RSS Courageous died in vain for the likes of your kind.
And for the matter, our NS men who have sacrificed their time, blood, all to keep you safe.
Those four women who died should not be thought of as heroes just because they were part of the Navy. They died of an accident.
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
Those four women who died should not be thought of as heroes just because they were part of the Navy. They died of an accident.
They never thought of themselves as heroes.
I'm sure.
But you should give them due respect.
And if you dont realise, NSFs form part of the RSN staffing also.
Look at where the collision took place and you will see what I mean by "keeping you safe". The ship was involved in an accident on patrol. If you can't be bothered to even find out the area it was patrolling, I think you shouldn't act smart and say what you wish.
You people don't know.
The frontline units are the ones who keep us safe.
And who do you think comes to your aid when you need them? You can jolly well tell the SCDF peeps to buzz off when the time comes when you need them?
I dont think so.
You simply dont have the balls to.
You think just soft power gets you far? Your project would be possible without the sacrifices of others? Think carefully.
It riles and irks me to see you people take security for granted.
On the one hand, its best you guys dont know whatever happens too. *shrugs*
On the other hand, people will just take defense for granted.
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Someone is at it again. it is always the fault of other forumers. tsk tsk tsk! kns
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
I'm just saying that when I'm a conscript, my other projects that I'm heading will have to be put on hold, and everyone involved will lose out on their income as well. Unless someone from the team covers my duties.
then its time someone step up and cover your duties when you are on NS.
life is unpredictable, you may not always wake up the next day, if you really care so much about those in your team, shouldnt you do something to ensure they continue to "survive" in your absence?
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Originally posted by I.imba:
War is of course pointless and who dun want peace. But this is like communist, a very good ideology but impossible, same thing total peace is impossible one.
NS is just a tool to scare other country only, if they really want to flatten every building in singapore all the NSmen cant really help it one. For singapore NS only can do so much, diplomacy still much more important. Go talk good to the US and lend them a navel base to park their Aircraft carrier here, this is the best deterrence.
Hi I,imba,Yeap peace man !!!
since you believe in peace so much - why you even locked your home door ? how about leave it open , and tell us your address - we all come over at night to give you diplomacy , and help to clear your house of all stuff . yeap totally nothing left = best deterrence - nothing for other steal !!!Wonder who is going to protect you from the US sailors from their parked aircraft carrier ?
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Sigh.... another thread involving a pre-enlistee who is making all sorts of noise about how NS is pointless.
Listen, kid, I'm not going to talk about responsibility or our geo-political situation or whatever, because you're only going to write me off as an old codger spouting government propanganda.
All I have to say is this: You're going to do NS one way or the other, so drop this attitude of yours. Tell yourself: 'I may not enjoy doing this, but I've got to do it, so I might as well make the best of my time in here.'
Because one thing is for sure (and all the other old codgers will agree with me on this): If you enter NS with this sort of attitude, you're going to really, really suffer.
So do yourself a favour and drop this attitude. Seriously.
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Hmm alright. But after he enlists, he is likely to have a new opinion on whether NS is useful or not. Would that be because he learns 1st hand why NS is good, or was he simply broken and brainwashed with false truths?
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
Hmm alright. But after he enlists, he is likely to have a new opinion on whether NS is useful or not. Would that be because he learns 1st hand why NS is good, or was he simply broken and brainwashed with false truths?
The only person who can answer that is himself, two years from now.
If he wants to be brainwashed, then he will be brainwashed. If he wants to see NS as a positive experience, then it will genuinely be a positive experience for him.
But none of that matters right now, because he has yet to do it. And having the attitude he has currently will be detrimental to himself. End of story.
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Originally posted by fudgester:
The only person who can answer that is himself, two years from now.
If he wants to be brainwashed, then he will be brainwashed. If he wants to see NS as a positive experience, then it will genuinely be a positive experience for him.
But none of that matters right now, because he has yet to do it. And having the attitude he has currently will be detrimental to himself. End of story.
True that.
Putting aside his conscientious objections (or what some might see as cowardice), I also want to talk about the changes in civilian life after being a conscript. Donald Trump talked about how military school gives an unfair advantage to them when they come out in the private sector. As they are taught about the bigger picture stuff, like the outer side of the B-I triangle.
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I will give u one advice my sgt gave me and my platoon mates when we just entered Tekong: "Go in with a very open mind".
No doubt, shyt will definitely happen, u may be punish for the *most ridiculous reasons, double standarding and see the ugly side of humans. On the bright side, all these is a prelude or a milder version of what you will be facing when you enter the working world. Here is also where u can see who u really r, learn to go w the flow or endure wat crap they throw at you, only fight the battles you can win and most important of all, make allies and learn who u can trust.
*most ridiculous reasons example: You got to do pumping because you don support the same football club as your OC
Double standard: OC say cannot gamble in camp, but he is gambling away with my team mates while the rest of us is doing dirty jobs
Ugly side of humans: OIC accused u of being a gay for the fun out of it.
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On the bright side, all these is a prelude or a milder version of what you will be facing when you enter the working world.
This is very true. there is a reason why we say that NS turns a boy into a man, it is not just your physical body.
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This may not be the first time most of you hear someone whining about enlisting in the military for 2 years but just hear me out because i have some points to make and i hope some of you can counter them and enlighten me instead of giving me a generic response such as asking me to skip it and get a jail sentence or imigrate overseas ( it is not that easy ladies.)
you just said it yourself, it's whining
You would most likely been told since young that singapore is weak and that any country would be capable of taking it. So lets think about it , why would another country want singapore in the first place? Sure it has value as a trading post for other countries but if it was taken over , would other nation want to come and trade in it when there are other ports available that are cheaper and hasn't been invaded?
nope, we were told we're small, not weak. our ports work because of our people's work ethics and good governance. makes no sense to invade us for that besides with our neighbours money here. it makes less sense to invade and hurt both sides.
Attacking a small nation like ours would only anger other huge Nation such as USA and the UK and it may escalate into another war which won't be much of a benefit.War only brings proft the weapon manufacturers. Today companies that creates mass supplies of weapons have no competition and they could charge them as high as they could if a war is to start. This is another reason to avoid a war and invading a country like Singapore.
this is exactly the reason why manufacturers would start a war. and do you know there's a recent case regarding arms maufacturers and india regarding corruption, and yes it involves us
With the discovery of the nucleur bomb , what is the use of sending out men to do the fighting when an atomic detenator is enough to wipe out this entire city much less a battlelion of troopers.Even if all of the men that enlist in NS were to go to war , we are still probably fucking vulnerable just by looking the world map. We are fucking surrounded and if we lost all of our defense post , the battle is as good as over.There isn't a second chance to retake the land.
you mind telling me,which nation has used a nuclear weapon on another since ww2? and what rational reason is there to drop one here. better arguement please?
Defending this country for pride and honor is propaganda created by the government to brainwashed us into thinking fighting for the country for glory is what a singaporean is all about. Why risk our life , dreams ,family for some petty dispute a few politicians can't come to an agreement upon?They send the common folk , poor or rich to defend their ego and all it does is destroy the economy , jobs and lives.In this day and age would anyone living in a 1st world country want to repeat mistakes of the past?
tell that to kuwait.
War may be for a good cause , if there is injustice , tyranny and facism it could be worth fighting for but with today history and cultural education plus the invention of the internet , many are coming to see the down side of war and let not the colour of our skins or beliefs seperate us. If we know that war is less profitable and only bring unhappiness , what is the point of all this bullshit with serving your country and dying for it?
no one is asking you to die for your country so you're serving NS so that you can make the other basterd die for his when his leader of a different belief thinks it's time to take you out.
and the world itself is an unequal place. ever wonder why you can post shit like these online? it's because your very existence here denies basic necessities to someone else in a third world country. no, not the right to posting a dumb question here. we're talking about food and water.
War is just young men killing all the other young men that were brainwash into thinking they are fighting for a honorable cause.If that what you want to do it is fine by me , go defend this country without knowing you are being use by the people that run this country i absolutely disagree with how the government force us to enlist in the military or lock us up in a cell should we refuse to join the rest of the herd. It is absolute babaric.
as babaric as the ones who feed you enough info to fool you into thinking you're a thinking person and come up with this line of thought without understanding how the world actually works??
I posted this topic recently and it has been moved ,edited and locked by a moderator so that no one can discuss the topic like rational people nor was i able to reedited it. I was upset and i would like to have an explanation of why you are doing this.
It seem that what i heard of how singapore censored other that have disagreement with it policys and are full of imbecile unable to reason with each other without resorting to such junvenille behaviour is true.
would rational people even ask your type of question?
No
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I went off to bed last night so i wasn't able to response early.Anyway some of you made good points on how a small country like ours need a strong military force.
But i am still not satisfied on how this justify the government to instill fear onto us of getting a felony should we choose to skip it. Aye it true we are selfish creatures , i can't bear the thought of wasting 2 years of my on life on this miserable planet to serve in the army because i rather use it to work on something i love.
even though lee kuan yew policy seems more logical it makes my stomach churn that he gets to decide the life for all us of young male adults without giving us a say in it.
i do not have the leadership ,the time nor the intelligence to convince people to start a riot to change the law ,Most of us are already well adjusted to our way of life to risk getting beat down by a mob of police all for the sake of such a petty disagreement.I should probably just suck it up and do my time like the rest.
That being said even though if a war is to happen i would not join the fight all for the sake of killing my fellow humans and risking my life.
you talk as if if the enemy were to come to your gates you'll have the option to choose whether or not to be a soldier.
noble words but your reasons given are crap
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This may not be the first time most of you hear someone whining about enlisting in the military for 2 years but just hear me out because i have some points to make and i hope some of you can counter them and enlighten me instead of giving me a generic response such as asking me to skip it and get a jail sentence or imigrate overseas ( it is not that easy ladies.)
you just said it yourself, it's whining
You would most likely been told since young that singapore is weak and that any country would be capable of taking it. So lets think about it , why would another country want singapore in the first place? Sure it has value as a trading post for other countries but if it was taken over , would other nation want to come and trade in it when there are other ports available that are cheaper and hasn't been invaded?
nope, we were told we're small, not weak. our ports work because of our people's work ethics and good governance. makes no sense to invade us for that besides with our neighbours money here. it makes less sense to invade and hurt both sides.
Attacking a small nation like ours would only anger other huge Nation such as USA and the UK and it may escalate into another war which won't be much of a benefit.War only brings proft the weapon manufacturers. Today companies that creates mass supplies of weapons have no competition and they could charge them as high as they could if a war is to start. This is another reason to avoid a war and invading a country like Singapore.
this is exactly the reason why manufacturers would start a war. and do you know there's a recent case regarding arms maufacturers and india regarding corruption, and yes it involves us
With the discovery of the nucleur bomb , what is the use of sending out men to do the fighting when an atomic detenator is enough to wipe out this entire city much less a battlelion of troopers.Even if all of the men that enlist in NS were to go to war , we are still probably fucking vulnerable just by looking the world map. We are fucking surrounded and if we lost all of our defense post , the battle is as good as over.There isn't a second chance to retake the land.
you mind telling me,which nation has used a nuclear weapon on another since ww2? and what rational reason is there to drop one here. better arguement please?
Defending this country for pride and honor is propaganda created by the government to brainwashed us into thinking fighting for the country for glory is what a singaporean is all about. Why risk our life , dreams ,family for some petty dispute a few politicians can't come to an agreement upon?They send the common folk , poor or rich to defend their ego and all it does is destroy the economy , jobs and lives.In this day and age would anyone living in a 1st world country want to repeat mistakes of the past?
tell that to kuwait.
War may be for a good cause , if there is injustice , tyranny and facism it could be worth fighting for but with today history and cultural education plus the invention of the internet , many are coming to see the down side of war and let not the colour of our skins or beliefs seperate us. If we know that war is less profitable and only bring unhappiness , what is the point of all this bullshit with serving your country and dying for it?
no one is asking you to die for your country so you're serving NS so that you can make the other basterd die for his when his leader of a different belief thinks it's time to take you out.
and the world itself is an unequal place. ever wonder why you can post shit like these online? it's because your very existence here denies basic necessities to someone else in a third world country. no, not the right to posting a dumb question here. we're talking about food and water.
War is just young men killing all the other young men that were brainwash into thinking they are fighting for a honorable cause.If that what you want to do it is fine by me , go defend this country without knowing you are being use by the people that run this country i absolutely disagree with how the government force us to enlist in the military or lock us up in a cell should we refuse to join the rest of the herd. It is absolute babaric.
as babaric as the ones who feed you enough info to fool you into thinking you're a thinking person and come up with this line of thought without understanding how the world actually works??
I posted this topic recently and it has been moved ,edited and locked by a moderator so that no one can discuss the topic like rational people nor was i able to reedited it. I was upset and i would like to have an explanation of why you are doing this.
It seem that what i heard of how singapore censored other that have disagreement with it policys and are full of imbecile unable to reason with each other without resorting to such junvenille behaviour is true.
would rational people even ask your type of question?
No
____________________________________
I went off to bed last night so i wasn't able to response early.Anyway some of you made good points on how a small country like ours need a strong military force.
But i am still not satisfied on how this justify the government to instill fear onto us of getting a felony should we choose to skip it. Aye it true we are selfish creatures , i can't bear the thought of wasting 2 years of my on life on this miserable planet to serve in the army because i rather use it to work on something i love.
even though lee kuan yew policy seems more logical it makes my stomach churn that he gets to decide the life for all us of young male adults without giving us a say in it.
i do not have the leadership ,the time nor the intelligence to convince people to start a riot to change the law ,Most of us are already well adjusted to our way of life to risk getting beat down by a mob of police all for the sake of such a petty disagreement.I should probably just suck it up and do my time like the rest.
That being said even though if a war is to happen i would not join the fight all for the sake of killing my fellow humans and risking my life.
you talk as if if the enemy were to come to your gates you'll have the option to choose whether or not to be a soldier.
noble words but your reasons given are crap
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Sigh... I'm extremely disappointed with young people these days... They think they understand how the world works but in fact, what they know is merely a bucket of water from the ocean. They don't know how difficult it is to achieve successful diplomacy and deterrence with other nations of the world.
Wars happen because of many, many various reasons. Unfortunately, it's a nature of mankind. It has been occuring since the start of civilisation and has never ceased until today.
The world we have is extremely complicated, nothing is logical.
We're born here, as Singaporeans. We have the obligation to protect our families and our homeland.
People who truly understands will be fighting on the frontline when a war comes. Fighting for their loved ones, fighting for freedom, and even fighting for those whom are scared and managed to escape to some other country.
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Originally posted by Warwolf:
Sigh... I'm extremely disappointed with young people these days... They think they understand how the world works but in fact, what they know is merely a bucket of water from the ocean. They don't know how difficult it is to achieve successful diplomacy and deterrence with other nations of the world.
Wars happen because of many, many various reasons. Unfortunately, it's a nature of mankind. It has been occuring since the start of civilisation and has never ceased until today.
The world we have is extremely complicated, nothing is logical.
We're born here, as Singaporeans. We have the obligation to protect our families and our homeland.
People who truly understands will be fighting on the frontline when a war comes. Fighting for their loved ones, fighting for freedom, and even fighting for those whom are scared and managed to escape to some other country.
I see what you see. The generation of today, especially the rich ones, they have maids to carry their SBO, iron their uniform and polish their boots. -
In defence, the generation of today is more tech-savvy. Why dig trench using changkol when a digger can do the same in 1/100th the time? Less need to chong swa when IFV carry troops all the way liao or better yet, press one button = enemy gone case. If we have the desire to protect our families and our homeland, we should encourage people to think what is the best way of doing it. Maybe NS still works today but will NS be relevant tomorrow?
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Originally posted by weasel1962:
In defence, the generation of today is more tech-savvy. Why dig trench using changkol when a digger can do the same in 1/100th the time? Less need to chong swa when IFV carry troops all the way liao or better yet, press one button = enemy gone case. If we have the desire to protect our families and our homeland, we should encourage people to think what is the best way of doing it. Maybe NS still works today but will NS be relevant tomorrow?
you playing computer games huhh..?
you can bring your digger anyway you like? may be you will need a maid to carry your digger.
why you need IFV to carry you, send in the helicopter lah...save you from the bumpy ride .
the case of press one button and enemy gone...this type of game too boring, no brain.
will NS be relevant tomorrow? hehehe...when singapore is not your home anymore.
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When I did my NS, no maid leh. Fewer young people these days got respect for old ex-reservist.... In my day, have to chong swa with very heavy equipment and dig trench while under the obligatory constant abuse. lol. Today, NSmen can play computer games eg simulator and got Ipad somemore! The difference most obvious to me is that I hear today NSnen in some camps take bath even got hot water! Singapore will eventually belong to next generation. They have decide for themselves whether NS is relevant. If they want to hear advice from oldie, that's up to them. If they make wrong decision, they pay the price.
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Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
I see what you see. The generation of today, especially the rich ones, they have maids to carry their SBO, iron their uniform and polish their boots.
not the rich ones but those middle and lower classes too.they all dont want to work even in ns and expect their comrades to shoulder n do their job for them.these are the citizens who are too lazy to do their own job and not that capable for future undertakings .the outcome is pretty obvious!more capable sporeans will leave spore and left spore with the lazy ones who dont even want to do their own ns even!
i remebered when i was doing my ns reservist duty years ago and found out that those 2 years ns people expect the reservists to do their job while they stand there n SUPERVISE ONLY!its as if they are not happy to even do ns and expect the reservist to do their ns for them as well.
once i even heard them say anything call the r ns reservist to do their simple 2 years ns job for them.
i cant imagine what the country and the economy will be like when these people come out at work for MNC profit orientated companies.
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too much newater!head fulla shit in youngsters nowadays.ask them werk...all u get is taichi and crap!
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SAF has to keep up with the trend, norms and culture of our modern generation of servicemen too... That's why there's hot water, fresh rations, washing machines, etc. catered especially during Exercise Wallaby 2012.
There's nothing wrong with improving the living conditions for soldiers, the keyword here is morale. But of course there're many things SAF needs to improve so as not to abuse/turning NS servicemen into liabilities.
Regulars aren't having a good life either, all of them are so worried kenna STOMPED, safety issues (like the recent RSN case), etc. Hope the public can stop being so harsh to them, like treating them as abomination or lower class society. If they don't respect them for their sacrifice and hard work, it's fine but at least treat them as ordinary human beings.
I do agree that the digging of trenches is just irrelevant in our modern day war scenarios. We need to focus more on urban warfare (which frankly speaking we're very weak in), instead of wasting so much time on jungle warfare.
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Originally posted by Warwolf:
SAF has to keep up with the trend, norms and culture of our modern generation of servicemen too... That's why there's hot water, fresh rations, washing machines, etc. catered especially during Exercise Wallaby 2012.
There's nothing wrong with improving the living conditions for soldiers, the keyword here is morale. But of course there're many things SAF needs to improve so as not to abuse/turning NS servicemen into liabilities.
Regulars aren't having a good life either, all of them are so worried kenna STOMPED, safety issues (like the recent RSN case), etc. Hope the public can stop being so harsh to them, like treating them as abomination or lower class society. If they don't respect them for their sacrifice and hard work, it's fine but at least treat them as ordinary human beings.
I do agree that the digging of trenches is just irrelevant in our modern day war scenarios. We need to focus more on urban warfare (which frankly speaking we're very weak in), instead of wasting so much time on jungle warfare.
digging trenches once a while is ok.....teaches soldiers to be soldiers on hamburger hill scenRIOS WHERE BULLDOZERS CANT REACH.