Sparrows/Amraams versus Sunburn/Klub family

• warspite

  31 May 03, 22:44

  Got a question, how effective is an air-launched radar guided missile (read AIM-7M/AIM-120C) against an incoming antiship missile(read SS-N-22 Sunburn)???
  
  Take for eg. this scenario...
  Singapore is at armed conflict with a regional power (read China, for eg), the US has reservations being involved due to economical reasons but still willing to supply weapons ..
  
  A Singaporean naval task force in the South China Sea confronting a fleet from China is being supported by E2C and fighters from RSAF. Assuming the Delta frigate is already in service with Aster 15s, but not the much longer range Aster 30s, the RSN force can only perform point defense/local area defense. This task force is detected by the Chinese and they launched a wave of Sunburns. This missiles are in turn detected by E2Cs which promptly directed F16s with medium range missiles to engage them as far away as possible. The question is how capable are our Sparrows and the Amraams going up against such supersonic sea-skimming missiles???
  
  This may sound ridiculous to some of you experts out there, but if such a situation really arise, are we able to counter it with our current equipment???
  
  A penny for your thoughts...
  
  
• SlowPoke

  1 Jun 03, 02:24

  you talking about head-on, side aspect or tail chase?
• Atobe

  1 Jun 03, 04:29

  
  Can an "Air-to-Air" Missile that is designed to take down an aircraft, be programmed to take down another "Missile" ?
  
  Would that not require an "Anti-Missile" Missile of some kind, similar to the Patriot, which itself is designed to take down a bigger flying object then an "Air-to-Air" anti-aircraft missile.
  
  Near impossbile I would think even for an AWAC to detect a small flying object with the size of such missiles, let alone the radar of a Fighter Jet picking it up and tracking it on its screen.
  
  
• foxtrout8

  1 Jun 03, 09:31

  Originally posted by Atobe:

  Near impossbile I would think even for an AWAC to detect a small flying object with the size of such missiles, let alone the radar of a Fighter Jet picking it up and tracking it on its screen.
  
  

  It is possible for the AWACs to detect the missile. Btw , the sunburn missile isnt as small as wat u think. The radar of an F-16 can pick up targets as small as the sunburn missile , however , i believe at a much shorter range. Since there is datalink between the F-16 and the Hawkeye , y cant the F-16 locate the missile??
  
  To shoot down a flying object , the missile have to attain a much higher G than the flyinf object. If the Amraam can shoot down an agile MiG-29 at 6+G , i doubt that it cant shoot down the Sunburn.
  
  However the difficult part is that , the Sunburn is design with an engagement to destroy time of 30s , that means u have to be quick it engaging it. I dun realli see a need for the F-16 to go up front t0 pick out the Sunburns.
  
  
• Shotgun

  1 Jun 03, 12:04

  Sunburn isn't really THAT small... Really. It was made to take out carriers and large ships. Chances of such a big missile being used against our Sampans... are kind of overkill. Harpoons and exocets are sufficient.
• technowizardry

  1 Jun 03, 12:23

  Originally posted by warspite:

  Got a question, how effective is an air-launched radar guided missile (read AIM-7M/AIM-120C) against an incoming antiship missile(read SS-N-22 Sunburn)???
  
  Take for eg. this scenario...
  Singapore is at armed conflict with a regional power (read China, for eg), the US has reservations being involved due to economical reasons but still willing to supply weapons ..
  
  A Singaporean naval task force in the South China Sea confronting a fleet from China is being supported by E2C and fighters from RSAF. Assuming the Delta frigate is already in service with Aster 15s, but not the much longer range Aster 30s, the RSN force can only perform point defense/local area defense. This task force is detected by the Chinese and they launched a wave of Sunburns. This missiles are in turn detected by E2Cs which promptly directed F16s with medium range missiles to engage them as far away as possible. The question is how capable are our Sparrows and the Amraams going up against such supersonic sea-skimming missiles???
  
  This may sound ridiculous to some of you experts out there, but if such a situation really arise, are we able to counter it with our current equipment???
  
  A penny for your thoughts...
  
  

  My opinion is that Amraams and sparrows have no chance of intercepting such an attack. If china was not tied up in other conflicts it could send the sunburns together with ECM support and fighter cover in numbers that would overwhelm us. Our aircraft would barely able save their own skin.
  
  Even the americans have to think about potentially losing a CBG or two when a war actually breaks out over taiwan. Do you think we can do better than the americans?
  
  Singapore would only be able to participate only in the framework of a UN mandate. e.g. China invades Taiwan / Thailand. Think in the lines of the Korean War.
• Atobe

  1 Jun 03, 13:07

  Originally posted by foxtrout8:

  It is possible for the AWACs to detect the missile. Btw , the sunburn missile isnt as small as wat u think. The radar of an F-16 can pick up targets as small as the sunburn missile , however , i believe at a much shorter range. Since there is datalink between the F-16 and the Hawkeye , y cant the F-16 locate the missile??
  
  To shoot down a flying object , the missile have to attain a much higher G than the flyinf object. If the Amraam can shoot down an agile MiG-29 at 6+G , i doubt that it cant shoot down the Sunburn.
  
  However the difficult part is that , the Sunburn is design with an engagement to destroy time of 30s , that means u have to be quick it engaging it. I dun realli see a need for the F-16 to go up front t0 pick out the Sunburns.
  

  The "Sunburn" is actually a Russian made Anti-Ship Missile, that measure approximately 9 meter in length, and skim over the sea at a very high speed, at a height of no more then 7 meters.
  
  If the AWACs E2C or E3s can pick out this low surface skimming missile, out of the low level surface clutter, it will be doubtful if the smaller radar on the Air-Superiority Fighter Aircraft can perform this challenging task - (and much less chance for the tiny homing radar built into an "air-to-air" missile to separate ground clutter to the low level surface skimming target).
  
  The AMRAAM is an air-to-air anti-aircraft missile, heat seeking or infra-red guided, with possibly a homing radar of its own but requiring some initial direction guidance.
  
  The most suitable "Sunburn" Killer, will be either a CIWS weapon of either the multi-barrel Phalanx "Gatling Gun" system, or the Rolling Air Frame Guided Missile System - both from Raytheon.
  
  Taiwan Faces New Missile Threat – Sunburns from PRC - 2001
  http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/1/74152.shtml
  
  KH-41 Moskit Missile – Sunburn – Info Site
  http://www.aeronautics.ru/moskit01.htm
  
  30M-80E Supersonic Anti-Ship Cruise Missile – Moskit (Russian) – Sunburn (PRC)
  http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/3m80.asp
  
  E-3 Sentry (AWACS) – Fact Sheet
  http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/E_3_Sentry__AWACS_.html
  
  USAF enhances AWACS capability – Block 30/35 modification upgrade program
  http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/n19980513_980655.html
  
  USAF further enhancement to AWAC E-3 – Block 40/45 upgrade
  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2001/dot-e/airforce/01e3.html
  
  Raytheon – Anti-Ship Missile Defense
  http://www.raytheon.com/products/sea_ram/index.html
  
  
• tripwire

  1 Jun 03, 13:08

  i also dont think its wise to use a sparrow or even an AMRAAM to take out a sunburn..
  
  i would rather such jobs be given to dedicated platforms that is integrated into the ships.. like BARAK or ASTER 15/30...
  
  
• foxtrout8

  1 Jun 03, 16:16

  Originally posted by Atobe:

  The "Sunburn" is actually a Russian made Anti-Ship Missile, that measure approximately 9 meter in length, and skim over the sea at a very high speed, at a height of no more then 7 meters.

  If the Awacs is for early warning agaisnt intrusion , wats the use if they cant pick out an intrusion at such low level??? If the radar for the Barak can pick out sea-skimming missiles , y a 'look down' radar on the E-2C cant pick out the large missile?
  
  

  If the AWACs E2C or E3s can pick out this low surface skimming missile, out of the low level surface clutter, it will be doubtful if the smaller radar on the Air-Superiority Fighter Aircraft can perform this challenging task - (and much less chance for the tiny homing radar built into an "air-to-air" missile to separate ground clutter to the low level surface skimming target).

  If the Awac can pick out the missile , the fighter can. There is something as datalink between fighter and AWACs. Have u seen Sea-sparrow missiles on frigates for plinking Sea-skimming missiles??
  
  

  The AMRAAM is an air-to-air anti-aircraft missile, heat seeking or infra-red guided, with possibly a homing radar of its own but requiring some initial direction guidance.

  Are u sure its heatseeking?
  
  

• foxtrout8

  1 Jun 03, 16:16

  >double post<
  
• foxtrout8

  1 Jun 03, 16:37

  
  
  >The E-2A Hawkeye was designed with one primary mission in mind: patrolling the approaches to the fleet to detect impending attack by hostile aircraft, missiles or sea forces. In addition to this AEW function, the E-2A provided strike and traffic control, area surveillance, search and rescue guidance, navigational assistance and communications relay services.<
  
  http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/e2.htm
  
  >Hawkeye warns the naval task force of approaching air threats and provides threat identification and positional data to fighter aircraft such as F-14 Tomcats.<
  
  http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hawkeye/
  
  >To detect low-level intruders, the best solution is AWACS (Air Borne Warning And Control System). Today, we have many AWACS platforms available in the market other than US E-2 Hawkeye and E-3 Sentry,<
  
  http://www.defencejournal.com/2002/oct/air_defence.htm
  
  >An affordable, proven airborne defense system, the Hawkeye eliminates the element of surprise attack, not only from bombers and fighters but also from low-altitude aircraft, missiles and ships.<
  
  >From an operating altitude above 25,000 feet, the Hawkeye extends the radar horizon by overcoming the line-of-sight limitations imposed on ground-based and shipboard radar systems by the Earth's curvature and mountainous terrain.<
  
  >The E-2C also controls friendly aircraft for pinpoint interceptions through high-speed data links.<
  
  http://www.northgrum.com/tech_cd/is/is_e2c_hawkeye_fact.html
  
  The problem is , there seems to be no info on how low a target the Hawkeye can detect. But surely , it is design to counter low flying targets, such as missiles.
  
  
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  1 Jun 03, 21:51

  AMRAAM is a radar guided fire and forget dudes.
• warspite

  1 Jun 03, 22:20

  The context of this scenario is to provide a wider defense umbrella than the Barak and/or Aster 15 can provide. Bearing in mind that chances of SM2/SM3 or even Aster 30 entering service with the RSN is rather remote (can the Delta frigate's draught accommodate these missiles ???), can the RSAF's F16s and the NGF, be able to substitute this role?
  Think along the lines of Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, where the F14s engage the incoming 'vampires'...
  
• duotiga83

  1 Jun 03, 22:22

  USN F-14 tomcats AIM-64 Pheonix can deter incoming missiles.....but as for AMRAAMS/Sparrows .......i'm not sure.......
• Atobe

  1 Jun 03, 22:57

  
  Here is an article that will probably clear all speculation concerning the ability of AMRAAMS taking down a "Sunburn"...
  
  http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AIM_120_AMRAAM.html
  
  It can, from a surface platform and probably with ground radar that is more powerful than from a Air Superiority Fighter.
  
  Concerning the data link and transfer of data about the incoming airborne threat of a "Sunburn" - from the AWAC to the Fighter Plane - by the time the info transfer rate is completed, and the Fighter Pilot has time to lock onto the "Sunburn" via his onboard radar and computers, one can only wonder if this approach will still be feasible.
  
  
• |-|05|

  1 Jun 03, 22:57

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  AMRAAM is a radar guided fire and forget dudes.

  The Aim-120 is guide like this
  Stage 1 parent aircraft locks and provides the tracking.(this includes ALL sensors on the plane including IR,Radar and AWACS)
  Stage 2 around 3-4 seconds before impact it's own radar kicks in for final guidence
  
  Note that it can be guided all the way by it's parent aircraft or it's internal radar can kick in earlier if need be.Somthing like the ADCAP torpedo