RMAF shopping for AEW&C
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BERNAMA Malaysian News :June 07 , 2003 13:02PM
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[u]AEW&C Can Ward-Off Potential Pre-Emptive Strikes Against M'sia
By Mohd Haikal Mohd Isa
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JOHOR BAHARU, June 7 (Bernama) -- Malaysia should speedily put in place an Aircraft Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system in view of the"pre-emptive strikes doctrine" being advocated by certain countries.
An editor with a regional defence and security magazine said, an AEW&C platform would enable the country to better monitor its airspace and ocean surface for the presence of aircraft, missiles, ship and fixed targets.
"An AEW&C platform is like a flying radar which can detect aircraft hundreds of miles from our shore. It provides better control of airspace and detect any incoming aircraft or missiles at an early stage."
"That alone represents an effective counter-measures against any move to launch a pre-emptive strike," Asian Defence Journal's Editor M.G Mahmud told Bernama when contacted.
During the recently concluded Asia Security Conference in Singapore, Australian Defence Minister Robert Hill reignited the controversy about pre-emptive strikes by saying that Canberra was prepared to defy international law in order to protect its citizens.
"There will be limited circumstances in which self defence will require anticipatory action to pre-empt adversaries unleashing massive destruction," he said.
Last week, Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) Chief Gen Abdullah Ahmad said the country needed a minimum of four AEW&C aircraft to bolster the surveillance of its airspace.
Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak in replying to Abdullah's comment on RMAF need for the AEW&C platform said, the purchase of such aircraft needed a thorough study as it involved huge financial commitments.
Mahmud said, the RMAF should already have the AEW&C in its inventory as the system was essential for a modern air force.
He said ground-based radar could have its limitations as aircraft flying at low levels close to the ground or "Nap-On-Earth" (NOE) flight could evade detection.
"From an operating altitude of above 25,000 feet, an AEW&C aircraft can extend the radar horizon by overcoming the line-of-sight limitations imposed on ground-based and shipboard radar systems," he said.
Meanwhile a defence analyst Prasun Sengupta said, there was a genuine requirement for the RMAF to acquire AEW&C especially to enhance its battle management system and airspace control.
The air force he said, was in the midst of assessing several types of AEW&C with the EMB-145 "Erieye" expected to come out as the main contender for the government contract.
Other contenders for the RMAF's requirement are Boeing 737-700, Saab 2000 and Northrop Grumman's E-2C Hawkeye. In the Southeast Asian region, the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) remained the sole armed force with the AEW&C platform with four American-made E-2C Hawkeye acting as her eyes in the sky.
Prasun said, the 18 Sukhoi SU-30MKM which would be purchased by Malaysia could also act as an AEW&C platform as its passive phased-array radar could detect enemy aircraft some 320km away. [/color]-------- -
4 AEWCs for Malaysia?!Thats a mere 1 in the sky at anytime.....i highly doubt it'd be enough.....they need at least 2 up at all times!!!
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they kuku one lah... in view of the close proximity of singapore to malaysia... as close as 400 meters..
how in gods name will an AWAC be able to stop a pre-emptive strike by RSAF into malaysia??
i mean... how long does it take for an RSAF falcon squadron to make a turn and fly max speed into malaysia from singapore??
and at max speed... how long does it take to for a falcon squadron to reach KL or kuantan AFB anyway?? especially more so... if the falcons had been in international airspace then like melaka strait or the south china sea??
and as far as i see... awacs makes high value target...
furthermore... since RSAF falcons are SEADs capable... those kuniang Air defence of malaysia would hardly be a concern... not to mention the fact that since RMAF only have SHORADs... they are not even a problem for falcons if they go high and use LGBs....
lastly... all those kuku hype about SU-30 or watever SU (lose) plane that RMAF is getting is hardly a concern if they dont get the russkies AMMRAAMSKIs.... like a bo gigi tiger...
and in view of the fact that RMAF has been operating the MIG-29 for so damn long... and even till now... they still havent lay their hands on the AMMRAAMSKIs... it begs to wonder... so wat if they get SU-30s or 35s if they still wont get the AMMRAAMSKIs...
on the other hand... RSAF falcons got python 4, derby and sparrow plus (rumor from the north which i seriously doubt) AMRAAM as well ...
i think a fight between local falcons and the northern barbarians would see a turkey shot for RSAF ... irreguardless they got awac or no awac...
so... let them be lah... let they brag all they want... as far as i see it... the malaysian air force are still highly dependent on foreign nations.. like russia... under such a situation... i would love to see if russia would support their any attempt to start a war with singapore....
no russian support.. no spare part, no engineer, no missile, no bullet... the RMAF pilots might as well fly in a malaysia layang and throw coconut bomb....
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why RMAF needs to buy hornets if the SU-30 is so damn good and much better??
cos... if they no buy hornet... they wont even get sparrows!!....
just think wat kind of a (IN)credible air defence RMAF will be if they have no sparrows, no amraamskis, no any BVR weapons... buying another 2 dozen flanker also wont save their butts from dozens of falcons and RSAF's NGF armed with sparrow, derby, meteor, magic,amraam and maybe even skyflash....
oh... i can just imagine the look on the malaysian AWAC operators when there radar starts flashing dozens, maybe even hundreds of storm shadows, SLAM-ER or even bomb tipped LALEE and firefly swarming across the johor straits...
so much for preventing a pre-emptive strikes... haahahahahahaa.a.a....... -
Hey hey... lets not be so sensitive... i believe they meant someone else... i think they are assured that singapore will not start any war for the next 10 to 20 years...
War would mean great losses for both sides. what us and them had built till now is too valuable. Both will not want to lose them.
anyway keep in mind the chinese proverb
"He Bang Xiang Zhen, Yu Ren De Li"
Cool down man
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Is there evidence that Singapore have the Alto/Derby???Originally posted by tripwire:on the other hand... RSAF falcons got python 4, derby and sparrow plus (rumor from the north which i seriously doubt) AMRAAM as well ... -
Well, don't overreact here, they are after all trying to defend themselves. There's no such thing as a dumb enemy and I'm sure despite their constnt hicups, Malaysia will not present itself to be anysort of a dumb opponent, if it comes down to that that is. Never belittle your oponent, potential ones or not. If they want to, it's up to them.
What do you expect them to do? Roll over and die? Well they may hold such a conempt for Singapore on many occasions, expecting us to take it lying down and just agree to them, and getting angry when we don't, we cannot make the mistake of following them in their mistakes.
After all, malaysia is the country which daringly said it had the right to say whatever it wants about the US but never fails to keep warning Singapore that it should be "sensitive" (in which case sensitive in their terms is to lick their boots) and attempts to stick their nose in whatever we speak whenever it serves them to drive up votes. -
well...this yr their miltary budget seems unlimited
buy lots of equipements at the same time.......pretty huge indeed -
The AWACS is NOT for the southern front .. they don't need AWACS to detect activity from there .. a JB spy with a mobile phone can do that.
The F18s and the Su30s are based to project power into the South China Sea .. and their new submarine base is in Sabah. So the AWACS is definately for patroling their sealanes between Pahang and Sarawak.
Why must we make an assumption that everything that they buy will be against us? -
Because the bloody farking stated reason on y Malaysia shop for AWACs system is openly agaisnt our defence doctrine , u understand?Originally posted by kenhor:The AWACS is NOT for the southern front .. they don't need AWACS to detect activity from there .. a JB spy with a mobile phone can do that.
The F18s and the Su30s are based to project power into the South China Sea .. and their new submarine base is in Sabah. So the AWACS is definately for patroling their sealanes between Pahang and Sarawak.
Why must we make an assumption that everything that they buy will be against us? -
Originally posted by kenhor:The AWACS is NOT for the southern front .. they don't need AWACS to detect activity from there .. a JB spy with a mobile phone can do that.
The F18s and the Su30s are based to project power into the South China Sea .. and their new submarine base is in Sabah. So the AWACS is definately for patroling their sealanes between Pahang and Sarawak.
Why must we make an assumption that everything that they buy will be against us? DONT make me laugh.... hahahahaaa.....
who are they to even think they can challenge china??? when even singapore with its far superior military power have wisely admitted the strength of the chinese military...
and while mahatir's toy planes have yet to recieve its double downgraded amraamski.. the chinese are toteting around with their amrammski build in china...
moreover... someone gotta remind mahatir that his malay country is the real malay island admist the sea of chinese rather then singapore is a chinese island in a sea of malays... dont believe me ... take out the map and open his tiny eyes...
in fact.. even his country has over 40 percent non-malays....of which 30 percent are chinese!!
his miserable 12 million malays are no match for the 1.8 billion chinese surrounding his boleh land including chinese in thailand, phillipine, burma and singapore...
one day the chinese and indians totalling nearly 3 billion people would come knocking his door and make malaysia swallow their bumiputra policy with ton of cowdung as toppings.... 
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Well, no assumptions here, the quote from the original article, ""That alone represents an effective counter-measures against any move to launch a pre-emptive strike," Asian Defence Journal's Editor M.G Mahmud told Bernama when contacted."Originally posted by kenhor:The AWACS is NOT for the southern front .. they don't need AWACS to detect activity from there .. a JB spy with a mobile phone can do that.
The F18s and the Su30s are based to project power into the South China Sea .. and their new submarine base is in Sabah. So the AWACS is definately for patroling their sealanes between Pahang and Sarawak.
Why must we make an assumption that everything that they buy will be against us?
Although, IMO I've always regarded ADJ as a defence magazine as highly as I regard The Sun(UK) as a serious newspaper
They've always raised a stink of our's and Australia's doctrine of forward defence, and despite what Johnny Howard and Robert Hill say, the only countries Australia can launch a pre-emptive strikes against are probably Fiji, Tonga and possibly New Zealand.
F-18s project power in the South China Sea? Pleeeeease...the Bugs have trouble projecting power into Southern Thailand from Butterworth.
Although, you're right when you say the Su30s are for projecting power into South China Sea by basing them in Terengganu. But then, its not about the Su30s here is it?
JB spy with mobile phones? You mean the kampung folk who moonlight as plane-spotters and call Utusan everytime they spot a military plane alleging RSAF intrusions? Nahh...reckon the RMAF don't trust them no more after being embarassed too many times. -
Recent word is that certain purchases have to be delayed(AEW&C) or downscaled(Super Bug and maybe Su30) due to the budget being stretched.Originally posted by duotiga83:well...this yr their miltary budget seems unlimited buy lots of equipements at the same time.......pretty huge indeed -
frankly... malaysia is such a weakling nation with loud loud empty voices... i seriously doubt they dare to do anything against america except making lots of irrelevant noises...
seriously... if australia tomolo got america support to go in and bomb the petronas tower... wat can malaysia do?? declare war against australia and invite a join bombing reprisal by US and aussy air power that can turn KL into a baghdad in a week?
can RMAF take on the USAF and RAAF?? can RMN take on the US 7th fleet??
hell... just one US SSBN got enough nukes to send maharaja and his orang bumiputra back to the age of orang utan where they can clamour over the special privilege to live in the trees....
lastly... by the time they got their awacs... we would be using spy sats.....
by the way... viper... wat is your opinion on the outcome of a fight between a SU-30 with no amraamski nor any BVR weapons against an RSAF f-16 with ammraam and possibly derby as well?
and isit possible to jam AWACs with EW... ? -
Come on, what's wrong with them buying awacs? They are simply undergoing modernisation.
With their long coastlines and their much larger airspace, plus their concerns over the spratly islands, it seems clear that they do need an awacs. -
if you fly high, who's gonna laser the targets for you? Another aircraft with a targeting pod? Then he'll be within the operating range of the ground defences. Commandos on the ground with laser designators? Those souped-up laser pointers are pretty short range too, if you can get troopers close in, may as well have them take out the SAM sites/launchers....Originally posted by tripwire:... they are not even a problem for falcons if they go high and use LGBs.... -
Absolutely nothing....apart from the number....i highly doubt 4 would be enough.....let's see....1 for standby....1 in reserve...1 in mantanice would leave 1 in the sky only.....given a 600km coverage area that 1 plane would about just merely cover their Sabah and Sawarak coastline.I think no enough.....they should have 6-12 enough for 2 to be in the air at all times for the next 3-5 yearsOriginally posted by CenturionMBT:Come on, what's wrong with them buying awacs? They are simply undergoing modernisation.
With their long coastlines and their much larger airspace, plus their concerns over the spratly islands, it seems clear that they do need an awacs. -
i have NO problem at all about them getting their awacs.... but i do have a problem when they claim that they are getting those awacs because they wanna aim at us....Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Come on, what's wrong with them buying awacs? They are simply undergoing modernisation.
With their long coastlines and their much larger airspace, plus their concerns over the spratly islands, it seems clear that they do need an awacs.
as far as i sees it... those awacs wont save their butts when SAF comes charging north... cos i am pretty damn sure that RSAF with the help of spy sats is gonna pinned those stupid awacs and send them crash landing....
and there are ways to make those malaysian awacs to work in the benefit of RSAF and make RMAF chase the winds all over malaysia ... hahahahhaahahaa......... -
ok... if those laser pointers cant direct a bomb from such a high altitude just above the max altitude range of a SAM... then i guess the next best option would be to go high altitude with GPS guided 1000lb and 2000lb bomb....Originally posted by SlowPoke:if you fly high, who's gonna laser the targets for you? Another aircraft with a targeting pod? Then he'll be within the operating range of the ground defences. Commandos on the ground with laser designators? Those souped-up laser pointers are pretty short range too, if you can get troopers close in, may as well have them take out the SAM sites/launchers....
worst come to the worst... i think we can do a night bombing raid with relatively ease...since our falcons got LANTIRN... i would love to see how to kuku malaysian SAM operators gonna see our falcons in the deep of the night streaking pass at supersonic speed...... it will be like trying to catch a mosquito in temburong jungle... -
come on lah... in reality... if you dont keep standby and reserve... they will have 3 awacs in the sky instead of 1... afterall... wartime ops is much different from peacetime ops... in wartime... u gotta get as many planes in the sky as technically feasible... even if it means you gotta sacrifice maintainance occasionally....Originally posted by |-|05|:Absolutely nothing....apart from the number....i highly doubt 4 would be enough.....let's see....1 for standby....1 in reserve...1 in mantanice would leave 1 in the sky only.....given a 600km coverage area that 1 plane would about just merely cover their Sabah and Sawarak coastline.I think no enough.....they should have 6-12 enough for 2 to be in the air at all times for the next 3-5 years -
It will be a "difficult" to interface a single AEW platform with the Su30 as well as the F-18. If they only have the F-18, buying the E2C will be a no brainer.....
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i wonder how are they going to integrate all their motley collection of multi-national make planes into an effective air umbrella. We spent a number of years before we inter-link our planes and ship to the AWACS............ so buying AWACS is one thing. Integrating them is another...... the cost involve in integrating them is not cheap. than comes out a couple of hundred million ringgit...... As well, the AWACS deal is most likely to be a straight cash deal.... no palm oil this time round
..... try offering it the americans..... they will most likely to throw the offer and the offerer out of the window....... 
by the way, the aussies do have the range to strike SEA technically speaking. without refuelling, their F-111 can reach Jakarta...... with tankers, they are able to launch pre-emptive air strikes throughout SEA......but this is not likely since they have more to lose strategically than win........ unlike uncle sam they are not a military power....... -
Dear Tripwire,
The initial purchase of the AWACs is for 4 aircraft .. they never said thats all they will be buying. They have a long learning curve up ahead .. so they buy 4 first for training. Just like the subs .. do you honestly think that their entire submarine fleet will consist of 2 subs?
And I never said that they will be challenging China .. so don't put words in my mouth .. you have some issues with the Malays .. the rest of us don't. They are going to put some assets to project force into the South China Sea .. and if you look at the map of our region, the countries with the most coastline bordering the South China Sea are China, Philippines, Vietnam and Malaysia. They have a right and duty to protect their coastline.
And you also said in some of your posts that the Malaysians should not consider us as their only threat .. by buying the AWACS, they have demonstrated that very clearly .. so you of all people should be happy that they are buying the AWACS. -
To Kanzer,
The AWACS are dual purpose aircraft .. they can co-ordinate lots of aircrafts to do a strike mission OR they can detect ships that surface borne radar can not.
You have to look at the bigger picture when dealing with Malaysia. There is ample evidence of what they can do with the Aircraft. What is Malaysia's role? They are a trading nation, and also a natural resource producer. They are an emerging tourism destination as well as a new transhipment port.
What are the main dangers for those 4 economic activity? War? Nope. Its piracy. If you read the shipping times, Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore waters have the highest reported incidents of piracy. Some range from just robbery. But the more daring cases are where whole ships are captured and made to dissappear.
Imagine the economic damage if one of Malaysia's LNG carriers plying the waters between Bintulu and Japan is taken by pirates? The worst case scenario would be that floating time bomb be taken to Tokyo Bay and detonated.
Having an AWACS may not stop piracy from happening but you will be able to track all comings and goings a lot better. So lets all just look at the possible use of the equipment before thinking its all for an invasion or some plot against Singapore. -
Slowpoke, theres no need for designator aircraft to fly within range of SHORADS when designating LGBs. It can be done from high altitude. In fact it would be better at medium to high altitudes because your designator can see further. So with LGBs and designating systems like the LANTIRN or Litening, everyone can stay high and be safe from SHORADS.
Kanzer, the Aussies can indeed reach Jakarta and all of SEA with tanker support in theory, but the Pig fleet is VERY old and unreliable. Sure, they boast about 100% servicability during red Flag, but do you know the effort and cost needed to do that. As for tanker, the RAAF is left with 4 old clapped-out ex-Qantas 707s.
Tripwire, AEWACs can be jammed, but its pretty difficult as most have very powerful sets and increasingly come with ECCM. As for Su-30 without AMRAAMski against F-16s with AMRAAM, I think there'll be no doubt about the result.