Singapore Delays Fighter Selection
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Singapore Delays Fighter Selection
SINGAPORE -- The Defense Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) of the Singapore government is reported to have whittled its list of next generation combat aircraft candidates down to the Boeing F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon, and the Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 types. Assuming that the DSTA's list wins the stamp of approval from the government, this would mean that Boeing's F/A-18E/F, the Dassault Rafale and the Sukhoi Su-35 have been dropped from consideration.
Here may yet be a twist, however, as a revised Rafale bid from Dassault is reportedly still under review. The modified proposal was submitted after the March deadline had come and gone and this has resulted in the final selection being pushed out to either late July or possibly into the beginning of August. In its revised bid, Dassault has proposed that Singapore collaborate and provide some funding for development of an upgraded Rafale variant. This may be the previously mooted Rafale Mk2 for which Dassault is seeking a launch customer. Intended strictly for the international market, the Mk2 would be fitted with the uprated Snecma M88-3 engines, conformal fuel tanks permitting a 10-15-percent increase in range, and a new active, electronically-scanned radar system. Should Singapore go with Dassault, that country's industry would participate in the aircraft's development and could take part in its marketing.
Singapore currently operates a mix of Lockheed Martin F-16 and locally-upgraded Northrop F-5 fighter aircraft. It also has a large inventory of McDonnell Douglas-built A-4 types which serve in the attack and training roles.
From Forecast International....... -
If the Singapore Government should take up the Dassault offer, it will spell disaster on the same scale as their decision to work with the Chinese in the Singapore-Suzho Industrial Park investment.
Working with the French is a disastrous choice, with their cynical and superior view towards others to start with.
Even the USA has difficulties working with the French, despite their financial and industrial strength.
What has Singapore got to leverage on this relationship?
Will Singapore be better in dealing with the French? -
Not really, I think if Singapore goes with Dassault, it is not so much to obtain commercial benefits. I think Rafale is almost doomed to fail commercially unless Dassault can suddenly secure a few orders from India, Taiwan, or some European countries.Originally posted by Atobe:If the Singapore Government should take up the Dassault offer, it will spell disaster on the same scale as their decision to work with the Chinese in the Singapore-Suzho Industrial Park investment.
Working with the French is a disastrous choice, with their cynical and superior view towards others to start with.
Even the USA has difficulties working with the French, despite their financial and industrial strength.
What has Singapore got to leverage on this relationship?
Will Singapore be better in dealing with the French?
Singapore would benefit technologically, call it paying for technology transfer, tutition, or what ever you like, the benefit is more likely going to happen in ST Aero and DSTA being involved in some of the most advanced development of radar technology, plus some other avionics type exercises. The total cost might just push the cost per frame a fair bit higher. If the cost per aircraft can be lower than that of the F-15E, then Rafale will have a chance, if not, I think we are going to see Block 60 Vipers. -
hhmm...surprise to see blk 60 vipers in the listOriginally posted by YourFather:Singapore Delays Fighter Selection
SINGAPORE -- The Defense Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) of the Singapore government is reported to have whittled its list of next generation combat aircraft candidates down to the Boeing F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon, and the Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 types. Assuming that the DSTA's list wins the stamp of approval from the government, this would mean that Boeing's F/A-18E/F, the Dassault Rafale and the Sukhoi Su-35 have been dropped from consideration.
Here may yet be a twist, however, as a revised Rafale bid from Dassault is reportedly still under review. The modified proposal was submitted after the March deadline had come and gone and this has resulted in the final selection being pushed out to either late July or possibly into the beginning of August. In its revised bid, Dassault has proposed that Singapore collaborate and provide some funding for development of an upgraded Rafale variant. This may be the previously mooted Rafale Mk2 for which Dassault is seeking a launch customer. Intended strictly for the international market, the Mk2 would be fitted with the uprated Snecma M88-3 engines, conformal fuel tanks permitting a 10-15-percent increase in range, and a new active, electronically-scanned radar system. Should Singapore go with Dassault, that country's industry would participate in the aircraft's development and could take part in its marketing.
Singapore currently operates a mix of Lockheed Martin F-16 and locally-upgraded Northrop F-5 fighter aircraft. It also has a large inventory of McDonnell Douglas-built A-4 types which serve in the attack and training roles.
From Forecast International.......
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Why be surprised at Blk 60 Vipers being part of the contenders? In fact, not only are is it a contender, but according to Asian Military Review, its a very strong contender too. However, in AMR, the F-16 was referred to as a F-16 Blk 59 (?!), and it was explained that the F-16 offered would be a hybrid of the Blk 60 of the UAE, the Blk 52+ of Greece and the F-16I of the IAF. I won't be very surprised at all if we happen to choose the F-16.
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gee.. can't they choose other planes instead? tho mi fav is the viper.....
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hmm......the F-15 is up there......surprising.....i'd thought the Su-35 would be there in it's place
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If we can get the F-15T with shit hot lots of tech transfers and entry into high level research, why not?
Its not just plain shopping for planes here, thats what the Malaysians do. We are looking to enter into the aerospace industry and getting to be one of the top in the business. First is being able to work with established leaders in the industry, learning as much as possible from them.
The winner of the deal is most probably gonna be the one that can offer the most join research and studies. -
Much as I like the Rafale I'd have the agree with Joe Black that the Rafales future is looking bleak at the moment. The weak market combined with a geopolitical shift of late has made it look very unlikely that the Rafale would be chosen.
As for the joint venture development, again Joe Black has got it spot on. For while we will get a share of the profits from the Rafales export success should we sign on, the question would be how much of a success would the Rafale be export-wise. Because if it is not, a share of the profits would become a share of the loss.
While we will stand to gain in terms of tech-transfer and knowledge etc, would this offset the monetary losses should Rafale fail in the transfer market? -
YourFather,
the F-16I is a Block 52+ equivalent, so are the Greeks recent deliveries as well as the 20 on order currently for the RSAF. All the aircraft, while differing in small detail, still come under the designation Block 52+ because of similarities in the majority of their on board systems, capabilities and structures.
The UAE are of course Block 60s, which are quite a different beast to the 52+.
Me thinks the newest Vipers on offer are Block 60 (or would the PW engined version be called 62?) -
cause though tech transfer would be good the F-15's are still old......the airframe design though good is about as old as the A-4's!Originally posted by Shotgun:If we can get the F-15T with shit hot lots of tech transfers and entry into high level research, why not?
Its not just plain shopping for planes here, thats what the Malaysians do. We are looking to enter into the aerospace industry and getting to be one of the top in the business. First is being able to work with established leaders in the industry, learning as much as possible from them.
The winner of the deal is most probably gonna be the one that can offer the most join research and studies. -
how about Typhoon creditablility? wonder since RAF willing to allow 1 squad to base in Uk though.....
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To me its simple. If the airframe works, is of a good design, can pull g's without breaking apart, I am happy with it. How Hi-tech can air-frame design be? Forward canard? Does the typhoon/rafale air-frame really improve the performance of a jet? Even if it does, is it considered a new capability?
Weighing it out, if the F-16 Block 60, or F-15T is gonna give us new capabilities, screw the airframe and take the capability.
Eg. Will you take a state of the art supermaneuverable airframe or ECM that will fry every radar in a 40km radius?
Consider this. Will your supermaneuverable fighter, such as typhoon, rafale, su-35 retain that ability while ladened with external fuel tanks, HARMs, Cluster bombs and AAMs? If these planes will come with new capabilities, eg. New jamming systems, countermeasures and TEWS, by all means take it.
Otherwise, if the F-15T/ F-16(60) is gonna promise us new capabilities and technology, take it. These airframes are combat proven anyway, and everybody knows what they have done.
Btw, I have heard of and F-15E, land with 1 wing missing. -
Quite a myth which I initially believed actually. The last Skyhawk was built in 1978/79 which is around the time of the earliest F-15A/Bs delivered. However should we get F-15s the aircraft will be totally new built, and besides our Skyhawks were all ex A-4B/Cs which were originally built in the late 50s or early 60sOriginally posted by |-|05|:cause though tech transfer would be good the F-15's are still old......the airframe design though good is about as old as the A-4's!
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which means the exact same case for F-15K except that our system is better than themOriginally posted by Viper52:Quite a myth which I initially believed actually. The last Skyhawk was built in 1978/79 which is around the time of the earliest F-15A/Bs delivered. However should we get F-15s the aircraft will be totally new built, and besides our Skyhawks were all ex A-4B/Cs which we built in the late 50s or early 60s -
Supposedly, yesOriginally posted by duotiga83:which means the exact same case for F-15K except that our system is better than them -
But design still old leh.....might be useable still but i think it should be on it's way out.....Originally posted by Viper52:Quite a myth which I initially believed actually. The last Skyhawk was built in 1978/79 which is around the time of the earliest F-15A/Bs delivered. However should we get F-15s the aircraft will be totally new built, and besides our Skyhawks were all ex A-4B/Cs which were originally built in the late 50s or early 60s -
I wouldn't necessary categorise the Eagles as old yet, eventhough, it is still pretty oldish in its original form. However, the Strike Eagle version is actually designed in the mid 80s as the Aardvark's replacement.Originally posted by |-|05|:But design still old leh.....might be useable still but i think it should be on it's way out.....
The Israeli in early 90 opted a modified version called the F-15I with lots of indigenious stuff. The Israeli, after a long study of F-16ES and the Bugs determined that F-15i could do many things the other wouldn't be able to do, especially, carry long distant deep strike penetration into Iraq to hunt for scud launchers. The other two would be able to reach there and back, but no fuel to loiter around for long.
I believe the F15 version that will be offered to RSAF will have an AESA radar too. It most likely going to include all the sweeten stuffs like what the RKoAF is getting including JDAMs, Slammer-ER???, etc.
My personal belief is that RSAF will most likely end up with the upgrade Viper, a Block 59 or a Block 60, with the AESA radar, and a couple of add-ons such as the Sniper-XR pod, etc.
Man, I would have love to see Rafale though. -
F-15T / F-16(60) is gd though but we really need some new fighters though even this hlep us to do maintainence easily
/me wishes rafale or typhoon on the list
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i personally think that a single seat plane with win the competition. F-15 does not stand much of a chance not because it is an old design but because it is a 2 seater. With the intention to replace the A-4s and some F-5s, we might be talking about a total of around 60-70 planes being purchase in the long run. that mean that we need to find at least 60 more WSOs...unfortunately we do not enjoy the luxury of having a large manpower base.....RSAF really have to scrap the bottom of the manpower barrel if they really decides on F-15s......
I am not surprised at the delay at all...... it is pretty obvious that they are waiting for the 4-nations acceptance of the eurofighter later this month then they will make a decision.....In fact they are supposed to announce the shortlist since 2nd quarter last year but due to the nigging problems in the eurofighter we too have to delay the announcement..... so my guess is in the typhoon...
my hunch is that RSAF will buy the europroblem..... opps i mean eurofighter..... -
Hey guys, we seem to dwell on the point which aircraft, technologies, etc... but in actual fact, I can see Singapore only wanting to spend not excessively to purchase, what is essentially, a stop-gap next gen fighter until F-35 comes off the production line.
Why I think F16 Block 59/60 has got the greatest chance of winning is because:
1. It has common parts to our current fleet of Vipers.
2. I suspect LM is going to give Singapore some sweetener that Singapore simply cannot refuse (think along the line what Dassault is proposing and you will know what I mean)
3. LM might also use F35 as an incentive for the Vipers purchase.
4. AESA is already on Block 60, plus all the FLIR mounted on the aircraft, CFT, etc. F-16 will nearly be on par with the Eurocanards in avionics technologies.
5. Perhaps a promise to deliver AIM-120Cs with the purchase, perhaps JDAMs, Slammer-ER, etc.
6. Bush's "Singapore is a good-friend" when PM Goh signed the free-trade agreement.
7. ST Aero gets some really sweet parts to play - technology transfers????
8. More access to US bases? more hush hush stuff US is willing to
provide Singapore to fight "terrorists".
etc.
All in all, as I have previously posted the question, is the "War on terror" and being part of the "coalition of the willing" going to change the outcome of this competition? My guess is, either LM or Boeing is going to win. Sorry EDAS, Dassault. Good try, good product, maybe next time -
as you say for the sweeteners, Boeing is doing likewise to the F-15T also, that doesn't make any difference to me though.....Originally posted by Joe Black:Hey guys, we seem to dwell on the point which aircraft, technologies, etc... but in actual fact, I can see Singapore only wanting to spend not excessively to purchase, what is essentially, a stop-gap next gen fighter until F-35 comes off the production line.
Why I think F16 Block 59/60 has got the greatest chance of winning is because:
1. It has common parts to our current fleet of Vipers.
2. I suspect LM is going to give Singapore some sweetener that Singapore simply cannot refuse (think along the line what Dassault is proposing and you will know what I mean)
3. LM might also use F35 as an incentive for the Vipers purchase.
4. AESA is already on Block 60, plus all the FLIR mounted on the aircraft, CFT, etc. F-16 will nearly be on par with the Eurocanards in avionics technologies.
5. Perhaps a promise to deliver AIM-120Cs with the purchase, perhaps JDAMs, Slammer-ER, etc.
6. Bush's "Singapore is a good-friend" when PM Goh signed the free-trade agreement.
7. ST Aero gets some really sweet parts to play - technology transfers????
8. More access to US bases? more hush hush stuff US is willing to
provide Singapore to fight "terrorists".
etc.
All in all, as I have previously posted the question, is the "War on terror" and being part of the "coalition of the willing" going to change the outcome of this competition? My guess is, either LM or Boeing is going to win. Sorry EDAS, Dassault. Good try, good product, maybe next time
if really choose blk 60 F-16, should the next batch of Blk52+ we getting( except no cft) able to do the same job likewise? just my thinking though.... -
well, here's my two cents worth of opinion lah... i think singapore should not buy any planes now... due to the economic situation in the region... though i know it's a bit funny lah, but think of it, we save our economy now, we earn more money... by the time the JSF comes out, we'll have more money to buy more... and since we're making a bulk purchase, i'm sure LM will throw in more goodies as an inncentive or something lah... besides, the time isn't right to by military hardware now... with mahatir stepping down soon, our northern neighbours might misunderstand our intentions... anyways, our airforce isn't really in need of these hardware for now, we can make do with what we have for at least another 5yrs...
this is only my opinion lah...
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Better yet, why don't we make our own fighter jets? That way we can make thousands and no one knows... Make it easy to fly and who knows, we might have NSF pilots one day.Originally posted by alphanumeric:well, here's my two cents worth of opinion lah... i think singapore should not buy any planes now... due to the economic situation in the region... though i know it's a bit funny lah, but think of it, we save our economy now, we earn more money... by the time the JSF comes out, we'll have more money to buy more... and since we're making a bulk purchase, i'm sure LM will throw in more goodies as an inncentive or something lah... besides, the time isn't right to by military hardware now... with mahatir stepping down soon, our northern neighbours might misunderstand our intentions... anyways, our airforce isn't really in need of these hardware for now, we can make do with what we have for at least another 5yrs...
this is only my opinion lah...
After all, pilots are not much more than drivers aren't they? -
drivers don't travel near the speed of sound
well, most don't