Singapore Delays Fighter Selection
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Hey people, lets put a bit of facts to our debate shall we
1. F-15 design is NOT as old as some of us would put it. The F-15 and F-16 design pretty much came around about the same time, almost liken to the F22/F35. USAF back then, had the same requirement of a hi-lo mix and thus the F15 representing the High (air-superiority), and the F16, the lo, light weight fighter with minimal detection and weapon carrying capability. Of course, these 2 designs have evolved over the 2 to 3 decade of their services, especially for the Viper. The Eagles, no longer serves as just an air superority fighter (btw, the Russian effectively counter the Eagles/Vipers with Fulcrum/Su-27 hi-lo mix), but one with long range strike capability (somewhat to complement if not totally replace the F111 of the Vietnam war era).
2. F-16 Block 60 is NOT anything like the Block 52s RSAF has. The difference (in broader sense) are:
i. different engines (similar powerplant, different ratings, 32,000lb PW F100-232 compared to the 29,000 lbs PW F100-229.
ii. avionics will be vastly different. Different radar (Block 60 will have a Northrop GrummanÂ’s APG-80 AESA), higher-speed mission computer, a new display processor, 3 large colour LCD displays, advanced data transfer unit with a fibre-optic data transfer network Precision targeting is achieved by the Northrop Grumman integrated navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR system using mid-wave infrared arrays and JHMCS by default.
iii. Block 60 has an integrated FLIR. RSAF still relies on LANTIRN pods.
iv. Block 60/62 F-16 would also utilise some technology developed for the F-22, eg. the fusion technology, data sharing, etc. Block 60 frames will be able to share data among themselves and assign targets or track zone, etc. Current Vipers cannot do that.
v. CFT, although this can be retrofitted to current Vipers.
vi. Different electronic warfare suite. It will have the Airborne Self-Protection Jammer (ASPJ).
vii. the list go on...
picture of an F-16 BLock 60 model from LHM:
Given all these differences, Block 60 Vipers can be almost treated as a totally new aircraft. However, they do share similar parts (engine parts, landing gears, and bits and pieces here and there - they all add up) which helps in terms of logistics.
3. RSAF is NOT the last users of the hardy Skyhawks. Current operators include:
1. Argentinian AF
2. Brazilian Navy (on their carrier)
3. US Navy (Aggressor)
4. Israeli AF (Trainer and Aggressor)
5. Indoneisan AF
6. RSAF (of course)
4. The last time RSAF operated an endangered species fighter was the Hawker Hunter.
5. F-15T is also very capable. It is NOT a gen 4 nor a 3rd gen fighter. It falls somewhere in between, perhaps a 3.5 gen aircraft. Bigger issue I have with F15 is their RCS - too big. Too easy to spot. Of course with the AESA radar, they sure can fight their way out in BVR engagements. However, if they meet a small agile fighters or the Sukhois, I hope the pilots get the first glance and a Python 4/5 soon follows. Otherwise, God helps the pilots). -
Joe Black,
the pic you posted is not the Block 60. No one knows as yet what the Block 60 will look like, but most believe it will look like the F-16ES (Enhanced Strategic) shown here
Adding to what you've said, what I've been hearing is the parts commonality between the 52 and 52+ with the Block 60 is very low. As you've said, the 60 has a lot of new capabilities and the engine is different from the 52/52+, and while some components are the same, I think even the landing gears will be strengthened further.
And CFTs cannot be retrofitted to the current 52s we have. The new 52+ on order can carry it tho'
Heh heh, the USN don't operate Skyhawks anymore VC-8 in Perto Rico has retired them.
As I've stated before, the F-15s we will be getting WILL ALL BE NEW BUILT. If we use the same standard to judge the F-15s as old airframes, then why would we favour the Block 60s over the Eagle? -
If i am not worng, that plane in that pic is the F-16XL, which lost to the F-15E in an USAF competition.
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LMTAS proposal to UAE designate as F-16U with F/A-22 type of wings......Originally posted by eurofighter:If i am not worng, that plane in that pic is the F-16XL, which lost to the F-15E in an USAF competition. -
http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9&page=1Originally posted by duotiga83:LMTAS proposal to UAE designate as F-16U with F/A-22 type of wings......
this page will explain it. . . -
i admit F-16 Block 60 and F-15T is a new airframe, but somehow ...i dunno...i can't seems to see any potential in upgrading the systems in near future.......
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Viper52, unless I misread your comment, is the latest batch of RSAF Vipers in fact Block 52+? I tot it was Block 52 DJ only given it was ordered b4 LMTAS annonunced the Block 52+. Furthermore, I thought Greek AF was the launching customer.
Wouldn't it be ironic if Block 60 ends up being a canard? The only differences between Block 60 and the competing Euro-canard is that Block 60 doesn't have a foreplane and it only has a single engine compared to 2 in Rafale and Typhoon.
Incidentally, the VIper is also the only competing aircraft in a single engine configuration.
To me, getting the Block 60 Vipers is almost as good as getting Rafales in terms of lack of major sales around the globe. Unless USAF decides to get some, I don't see the "real" benefit of getting choosing the Viper over Rafale (technologically). As many of you have already observed, buying jet fighters are more than just buying the best technology one's money can afford. There are many political considerations, not to mention, economical implication as well. -
Joe Black, the blurb from my contacts at LM certainly thinks that Singapore is getting the 52+. Heres a press release for the Greek 52+ purchase, its dated Apr 99Originally posted by Joe Black:Viper52, unless I misread your comment, is the latest batch of RSAF Vipers in fact Block 52+? I tot it was Block 52 DJ only given it was ordered b4 LMTAS annonunced the Block 52+. Furthermore, I thought Greek AF was the launching customer.
http://www.lmaeronautics.com/news/programnews/combat_air/f16/f16_99/f16pr990430.html
while LMs press release for the RSAF order is dated July 2000
http://www.lmaeronautics.com/news/programnews/combat_air/f16/f16_00/f16pr000721.html
Greek AF is indeed launch customer, we're the 2nd customer IIRC for this version. While the press release doesn't mention that ours is the Block 52+, the timeline certainly suggests so...
The difference between Block 60 and Rafale in your analogy is that the Block 60 already has an export customer in the UAE. And despite its huge step up from previous versions, the fact remains that it is based on an existing design which is on a very sure footing economically. Rafale doesn't have that luxury
Don't ask me whats my favourite, I really don't know anymore...too many varying factors are in play already.... -
last time if i remeber correctly, straits time stats that rsaf interested in the metoer BVRAAM. Does that affect this compettion too?
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sorry, but canards are flight control surfaces (also known as "foreplanes") usually mounted on the forward fuselage. The Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale have them. The Blk60 F-16 in the pic does not have canards, but it does feature a delta wing design, similar to the Rafale and TyphoonOriginally posted by Joe Black:....Wouldn't it be ironic if Block 60 ends up being a canard? -
That delta wing looks alot alot alot like the XL which has 82% more fuel and looks pretty cool.....
As for the F-15...i wonder if we could get the F-15S/MTD......honestly it looks very capable and could out perform the Su-30's i think
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F-15ACTIVE is just an experiment....but unless if we next time F-15T (if chosen) upgrade to this standard?Originally posted by |-|05|:That delta wing looks alot alot alot like the XL which has 82% more fuel and looks pretty cool.....
As for the F-15...i wonder if we could get the F-15S/MTD......honestly it looks very capable and could out perform the Su-30's i think -
Press Release Source: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company
Lockheed Martin Conducts Flight Testing of More Powerful Engine for F-16
Thursday June 26, 5:19 pm ET
FORT WORTH, Texas, June 26 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT - News) has successfully completed the initial phase of flight testing of a more powerful engine for the latest version of the F-16, the Block 60.
The engine is a General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan engine that produces approximately 32,500 pounds of thrust in maximum afterburner. It is a derivative of the current F110-GE-129, which is in the 29,000-pound thrust class.
Flight testing was accomplished on a modified USAF F-16C at the Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. Thirteen flights were conducted from April 25 through June 19. The original plan called for 25 flights over a three-month period, but aerial refueling and excellent engine performance and reliability allowed the number of flights to be cut in nearly half.
"The engine met or exceeded all of our expectations during extensive ground and flight testing," said Dan Levin, Lockheed Martin project test pilot. "The engine performed flawlessly, even at extremes of the F-16 flight envelope, and you really notice the added thrust. The handling qualities in formation and aerial refueling were excellent. We look forward to testing the engine in the first Block 60 aircraft at Fort Worth later this year."
The new engine version is being developed by General Electric Aircraft Engines, Evendale, Ohio, in support of a commercial contract to Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., for the new Block 60 F-16.
"This is an important milestone in the Block 60 program leading to production of the first aircraft later this year," said John L. Bean, vice president of F-16 programs. "This higher-thrust engine ensures the Block 60, which has the capability to operate at higher gross weights, will retain the F-16's famous performance that entails acceleration, climb rate and sustained turn rate. New technologies are allowing this to be accomplished while maintaining or improving engine operability, durability, reliability or maintainability."
The new engine version features "blisks" (bladed-disks) in the three-stage modular fan section in lieu of traditional blades to improve performance and maintainability. The engine also incorporates an enhanced durability radial augmentor (afterburner) and exhaust nozzle, plus control software modifications to optimize engine performance at all flight conditions. The Block 60 aircraft and engine also will feature an auto-throttle capability.
Flight testing verified compatibility across the entire F-16 envelope, including high angle-of-attack and sideslip maneuvers, pushovers, inverted flight, and takeoff and landings. Test points included air starts, throttle transients, afterburner operation, primary and secondary fuel control operation, and formation flying.
The F-16 is the choice of 24 countries. More than 4,000 aircraft have been delivered, hundreds more are on order, and production is expected to continue beyond 2010. Major upgrades for all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft's long service life.
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., a business area of Lockheed Martin Corp., is a leader in the design, development, systems integration, production and support of advanced military aircraft and related technologies. Its customers include the military services of the United States and allied countries throughout the world. Products include the F-16, F/A-22, F-35 JSF, F-117, T-50, C-5, C-130, C-130J, P-3, S-3 and U-2.
Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin Corp. employs about 125,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture and integration of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2002 sales of $26.6 billion -
maybe we can conduct a poll on which is the most likely aircraft to be selected......something like the 'viewers' choice' lets see whether the views of the public conincides with that of the govt in the selection of aircraft...
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Anyone got more news on Singapore's narrowing choices for new fighter jets ? Its a paid site, so can only see the header
DEFENCE SYSTEMS DAILY HEADLINES for 25 June 2003
http://defence-data.com
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HEADLINES 25 June 2003
Lockheed Martin and BAE to partner on missile defence
Germany increases Polish co-operation with fighters
Raytheon to study US Air Force GPS receiver modernisation
Singapore narrowing choices for new fighter jets
Norway coordinates Nato strategic sealift capability
Airbus now eyeing Pentagon
Northrop Grumman participates in USAF virtual wargames
Herley awarded contract by Lockheed Martin Space Systems
Arotech Battery Powers Dragon Eye unmanned drone
Second Helios fuel cell checkout flight set for thursday
Stock Prices
News Clips -
Block 60 a delta wing!!!???Originally posted by Joe Black:picture of an F-16 BLock 60 model from LHM: -
blk 60 is not delta wing...is normal F-16 with CFT.....that is confirm....That picture is F-16UOriginally posted by IAF:Block 60 a delta wing!!!??? -
this article isinteresting....
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_02/asn_02d1_warplanecomppg1.html
Warplane competition hot in Asia
by Chris Pocock
With Singapore now shopping for a new combat aircraft, and Korea trying to decide, competition in the fighter export business has reached a new intensity. Six responses to SingaporeÂ’s request for information (RFI) were delivered last week, describing the respective merits of the Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60, and Sukhoi 30/35. Meanwhile, the four finalists in KoreaÂ’s F-X program were waiting to hear whether a winner would be chosen, even though none of the bids were close to the governmentÂ’s target price.
Singapore is seeking a multirole combat aircraft that can replace A-4 Super Skyhawks and, perhaps later, the F-5. Initially, though, the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) requires only 24 aircraft, for delivery from 2007-2009. The contenders will likely be narrowed to two or three, which will be invited to make formal bids early next year. However, a winner would not be chosen for another year; i.e., in early 2004.
This extended process will allow Singapore to conduct its usual rigorous evaluation. The Defence Science & Technology Agency (DSTA) will evaluate the candidates, with respect to the RSAFÂ’s operational requirements, but also considering support, training and technology transfer factors. The DSTA has recently issued new acquisition guidelines that emphasize these factors (see separate story, page X). Its chief executive has already stated that Singapore must have control of the technology needed, for instance, to conduct a mid-life update.
Although Singapore paid for observer status on the concept demonstration stage of the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), Defence Minister Dr. Tony Tan has now stated unequivocally that the island republic will not be tempted to delay the choice of a new fighter to wait for the production phase of JSF.
So what of the contenders? Dassault has already brought the Rafale to Singapore three times, and is once again mounting a concerted public relations campaign. The Rafale team stands to gain from the good military relationship between France and Singapore, which has included joint exercises and the provision of permanent accommodation for an RSAF A-4 training squadron.
Despite the creation of Eurofighter International two years ago to market the Typhoon for export, each industrial partner still retains ‘lead status’ in certain countries for sales purposes. For instance, BAE Systems is leading the sales push here in Singapore, while EADS-DASA is the lead for Korea. BAE is compensating for the absence of a real aircraft here, by showing its cockpit demonstrator with the latest operational software installed, including the helmet-mounted sight and direct voice input/output. The demonstrator will remain in Singapore for some time after AA’2002, so that military procurement officials can make a detailed evaluation.
Boeing has borrowed an F-15E and an F/A-18F from the US military, and these are being flown here by Boeing test pilots. The company also has a reconfigurable cockpit on display at its stand, which can demonstrate the avionics of both fighters.
Lockheed Martin enjoys an existing supplier status, having now sold or leased 50 F-16s to the RSAF. The U.S. Air Force is flying an F-16C here, and a similar aircraft in the static park has been fitted with dummy conformal fuel tanks to make it look more like the Block 60 version now on offer to Singapore. The RSAF is generally happy with its F-16s, but there have been technology transfer niggles between the U.S. and Singapore, as the latter has sought to customize its aircraft. Boeing could face similar problems with its bid, unless the U.S. relaxes its arms exports policy that, for instance, bans the release of source code for combat aircraft radars, mission computers and electronic warfare equipment.
Russia is offering two derivatives of the Sukhoi Su-27. One proposal is for a modernized version of the two-seat Su-30 model similar to the Su-30MKI that is being developed for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Among other improvements this aircraft features the additional of moveable canard foreplanes that are fully interactive with the aircraftÂ’s fly-by-wire flight control system (FCS). The second proposal is for the Su-35, a successor model to the Su-27/30 series that was designed in the early 1990s. The Su-35 has a new wing and horizontal stabilizers, and the canards were integrated into the design concept from day one.
Two production centers are capable of providing these aircraft to Singapore, Kosommolsk-na-Amure (KNAAPO) and Irkutsk (IAPO). The latter has responded to the RFI, and is probably better suited to this competition, since it has integrated avionics from Thales and Sagem in France and IsraelÂ’s El-Op in the Su-30MKI. This aircraft also contains the N11-01M passive electronically scanning array (ESA) that is a major step in performance above the standard radar of the Su-27/30.
The RafaleÂ’s RBE2 radar also features an ESA, but the active array now being developed by Thales will presumably be offered to Singapore. The F-16 Block 60 will also have an active array, and these will also be available for BoeingÂ’s Super Hornet, if not for the Strike Eagle. The Typhoon has the mechanically-steered Captor radar, but this is described by BAE as by far the best-in-class. -
Jeez, what's all this confusion about the F-16? Let's get these facts right, yeah?
1. The Block 60 will look like the conventional F-16 we all know, except with its CFTs and internal FLIR system. Last I read, they removed the part of the FLIR which was to be mounted in front or under the chin intake, due to airflow problems. Dunno where are they going to put it. Also dunno whether the plane will feature the enlarged spine? (i think so)
2. The F-16XL was the F-15E's rival, which as we know, lost out to the F-15E. The F-16XL featured a CRANKED-DELTA, NOT the pic which was posted by Joe Black.
3. That pic was a proposed model to fulfil the replacement for the F-16. It actually fulfilled virtually every requirement for the JSF, IINW, except for stealth and upgradability. Alarmed at the threat this version of the F-16 posed to their JSF program, they quietly halted lockheed from pursuing further development of this model. -
[quote]Originally posted by YourFather:
[b] Jeez, what's all this confusion about the F-16? Let's get these facts right, yeah?
1. The Block 60 will look like the conventional F-16 we all know, except with its CFTs and internal FLIR system. Last I read, they removed the part of the FLIR which was to be mounted in front or under the chin intake, due to airflow problems. Dunno where are they going to put it. Also dunno whether the plane will feature the enlarged spine? (i think so)
2. The F-16XL was the F-15E's rival, which as we know, lost out to the F-15E. The F-16XL featured a CRANKED-DELTA, NOT the pic which was posted by Joe Black.
but it say on tis website sayin the pic Joe Black posted is Block 60
http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9&page=1
look again...unless tat guy who wrote abt it in tat webby is wrong? -
haha yea i know but the so called cranked delta looked like the wingtips/cranks were added on......so i thought they were! ahah oh well my badOriginally posted by YourFather:Jeez, what's all this confusion about the F-16? Let's get these facts right, yeah?
1. The Block 60 will look like the conventional F-16 we all know, except with its CFTs and internal FLIR system. Last I read, they removed the part of the FLIR which was to be mounted in front or under the chin intake, due to airflow problems. Dunno where are they going to put it. Also dunno whether the plane will feature the enlarged spine? (i think so)
2. The F-16XL was the F-15E's rival, which as we know, lost out to the F-15E. The F-16XL featured a CRANKED-DELTA, NOT the pic which was posted by Joe Black.
3. That pic was a proposed model to fulfil the replacement for the F-16. It actually fulfilled virtually every requirement for the JSF, IINW, except for stealth and upgradability. Alarmed at the threat this version of the F-16 posed to their JSF program, they quietly halted lockheed from pursuing further development of this model. -
Here is a report from "Flug Revue" with pic of the F-16 Block 60 that was being negotiated with U.A.E.
LOCKHEED MARTIN F-16 FIGHTS ON
by Karl Schwarz
25 years after its maiden flight the F-16 is among the fighter classics: Over 4,000 are on order, and the Fighting Falcons have been in action for over seven million hours in 19 countries. With further improvements, the multi-role fighter will be an attractive proposition even after the year 2000.
After 18 years and 4,000 flight hours in the F-16 Major Michael J. Brill of the USAF,s 466th Fighter Squadron at Hill AFB (Utah) is still enthusiastic. The Fighting Falcon "is a great electronic fighter [with Fly-by-Wire Steering]. It is fun to fly. The engines have more thrust. It has more and better avionics. It can take on board the latest weapons. It was super when it was first introduced and 20 years later its still stat of the art", explained Brill at the end of August, when he was the first pilot to reach this milestone.
Evaluations like this are very welcome at Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems in Fort Worth (Texas). Tight defence budgets throughout the world and the emergence of new European fighters of the fourth generation like the Saab JAS 39 Gripen or the Eurofighter EF2000 (Typhoon) make the marketing of this bestseller more and more difficult.
It was thus seen as a big success when - with a lot of pomp - the United Arab Emirates announced their decision in May to acquire the "Block-60" version of the F-16. It incorporates the latest technical advances, including a radar with electronic beam movement, FLIR (which is integrated in thenose), three big LCD-Colour screens in the cockpit, new computers and big additional tanks on the back of the fuselage.
However, contracts for 80 aircraft have not yet been signed. They will cost the impressive sum of around $7 billion, inclusive of support, spare parts and weapons. One problem seems to be technology transfer. The reason being that - for the first time - the USA is selling a version of the F-16 which is even better than its own aircraft. Nevertheless the Lockheed Martin "Fighter Enterprise" hopes that negotiations will be complete by the end of the year.
Because work is still necesarry to develop the aircraft, the hand over of Fighting Falcons to the UAE will not start before 2002 and continue until 2004. This could lead to a disruption in production, because currently the last delivery of an F-16 built in Fort Worth is scheduled for the spring of 2001.
Comprehensive rationalisation measures and the introduction of "commercial practices" have reduced the delivery time of a standard aircraft from between 36 and 42 months, to only 24 months. However this still means that the marketing people must hurry up to land new contracts. The following countries are especially targeted right now:
Greece, where 40 to 60 new fighters are needed. This country is already using F-16s and one might decide on a mix of additional Fighting Falcons (10-20) and a new plane like the Boeing F-15, Eurofighter or Su-27. A decision is not expected before the beginning of 1999.
Israel is also thinking of a "mixed purchase" in order to complete its F-16 and F-15 fleets. Offers are being put forward until the end of the year, and a decision is expected in the spring of 1999. Orders are expected for up to 60 Fighting Falcons.
Norway is acquiring between 20 and 40 aircraft, and is deciding between the F-16 and the Eurofighter. However, offers have to be extremely detailed, because of high-quality offset and industrial cooperation requirements. A decision is not expected before the spring of 2000.
Furthermore the Falcon is competing for business in the Philippines and Chile. Each country is interested in taking between 12 and 24 aircraft. After the Asia Crisis and the evident repercussions, governments have either shelved or postponed the programs.
Lack of funds is also a problem for some countries aspiring to join NATO, among them Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. After extremely expensive marketing activities, which now go on for years, all bidders have finally recognised the fact that second hand aircraft will probably be a first step. Here the F-16 is in a good position, because at the Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona hundreds of F-16A/B's which have been taken out of service, are waiting for new users. Because delivery to Pakistan had been embargoed by the US Government, there are even 28 brand new F-16C/Ds available.
Despite the current unfavourable market conditions, the decision-makers at Lockheed Martin are confident that they will be able to sell about another 500 F-16s. Possible purchasers might include Saudi Arabia (50-100) and Brazil (50).
The manufacturer sees more than half of the sales potential with existing users like Egypt (30-50) or Turkey (70-100). Already the Fighting Falcon can boast 30 repeat orders from 14 Air Forces. This is, according to the manufacturer, impressive proof of the fighter's qualities, which despite better opponents is said to be four times more capable in combat today than at the beginning of its career.
Most of all the F-16 is unbeatably cheap to buy. Comprehensive programs to lower the price of the aircraft have brought down the Fly-away price to a little less than 20 million Dollars, (value in 1994). This is about half the cost of the Eurofighter.
No matter how the Fighting Falcon performs in future sales competitions, one thing is for sure: It will be one of the world's most popular fighter planes well into the 21st century.
Source: http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH9812/FR9812a.htm -
so now we noe how block 60 reali looks like..just like normal..but look pretty cool to me
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looks more mean from the front... ;>
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Nothing wrong.... we're all here to share info on what we know, yes?Originally posted by |-|05|:haha yea i know but the so called cranked delta looked like the wingtips/cranks were added on......so i thought they were! ahah oh well my bad
As for that website...... maybe he got it confused, or it REALLY was the initial Block 60 design? (probably the later)