Japan want 2 aircraft carrier. . .die liao die liao
-
Japan departs from pacifist stance, plans two aircraft carriers
Perception of North Korean threat may have led to decision
By Richard Halloran
HAWAII - The Japanese navy is preparing to build two small aircraft carriers, its first in more than 60 years, according to Japanese and United States officials.
The plan is further evidence that Japan is departing from its pacifist post-World War II Constitution that restricts its military to self-defence.
The carriers can be deployed as command ships in a task force to give the Maritime Self-Defence Force, as the Japanese navy is called, a modest ability to project power into the sea-lanes that are vital to Japan's trading economy.
That capability is likely to draw protests from China, North Korea and South Korea, which were invaded by Japan during World War II.
Tokyo's decision to go ahead with the aircraft-carrier plan is believed to be prompted by its perception of an immediate threat from North Korea and a longer-term threat from China.
In its 2003 White Paper on defence published last week, the Self-Defence Agency asserted in more forceful terms than in earlier versions that the nation must build up its fundamental defence capabilities to ensure its independence.
In that respect, Japan is on the verge of building a missile defence. It has also just launched a second pair of intelligence satellites to watch North Korea.
Tokyo also recently passed laws giving the Self-Defence Forces wider latitude in defending their homeland.
Funds for the first small carrier have been included in Japan's defence budget for fiscal year 2004, beginning April 1 next year. The second carrier is scheduled for fiscal year 2005.
Japanese naval officers are calling the new ships 'destroyers' instead of 'aircraft carriers' in an effort to avoid triggering opposition from those against enhanced defence in Japan as well as from China and the two Koreas.
Yet drawings of the warship show the flat deck of an aircraft carrier and an 'island', or command structure, at the starboard or right edge of the deck.
Moreover, officials familiar with the ship's design said the deck and hangar below are capable of handling aircraft such as the joint strike fighter being developed by Lockheed Martin, a leading US defence contractor. That fighter, also called the F-35, is scheduled to go into production in 2008 just as the first Japanese carrier is ready for sea.
The F-35 will be a supersonic warplane capable of flying at 1 1/2 times the speed of sound. It will also incorporate stealth technology to enable it to evade radar detection.
The Japanese vessels will be comparable in size to Spain's 16,700-ton Principe De Asturias, which carries 17 planes.
The plan calls for equipping the carriers with new SH-60 Seahawk helicopters, which are designed to patrol the ocean, to detect submarines, and to protect the fleet.
The first ship is to be commissioned in 2008, the second in 2009. Two more may be built later.
An earlier proposal by the Self-Defence Forces to buy 'jump jets', that can fly as fighters or bombers, for four 14,700-tonne assault ships ran into political opposition. But that was before Japan got worried about North Korean missiles and nuclear arms.
------------------------------------------------
Oh well. . . not totally unexpected. . . but how soon will it be before the japs start thinking abt expansion again. . . haiz. . . -
wah lieu......JASDF going offensive ah........want to get F-35B ......al point to NK ?
-
Even without flat-tops, their so called maritime self-defense force has an awesome conventional capability with AEGIS cruisers.... 2nd only to the US pacific fleet.
-
For Christ's sake, dont be stupid la.... China has waaaay more chance of being expansionist than Japan..... Just get over this paranoia can? If you cannot get over Japan's past, then why is it that Germany is already forgiven? It is time for normalisation of Japan's status. She should be given the right to act as any other nation. Her current pacifist nature actually hampers her from doing good rather than limit her from doing harm..
-
hhhmmm...true......north korea provoke them doing so.......Originally posted by YourFather:For Christ's sake, dont be stupid la.... China has waaaay more chance of being expansionist than Japan..... Just get over this paranoia can? If you cannot get over Japan's past, then why is it that Germany is already forgiven? It is time for normalisation of Japan's status. She should be given the right to act as any other nation. Her current pacifist nature actually hampers her from doing good rather than limit her from doing harm..
-
seriously, i think it's a good thing.
who knows, macross valkyries and gundams might not be that far off in the future. -
The difference between Japan and Germany is simple. The Germans have accepted that their actions in WWII is wrong and have apologised repeatedly for their actions. Japan, on the other hand, refuses to acknowledge that it's actions were wrong, insisted it fought in self-defense, denied/whitewashed/ignored repeatedly the litany of war crimes as it swept through the Pacific, and insisted that its occupation of Asia was liberation from colonialism.Originally posted by YourFather:For Christ's sake, dont be stupid la.... China has waaaay more chance of being expansionist than Japan..... Just get over this paranoia can? If you cannot get over Japan's past, then why is it that Germany is already forgiven? It is time for normalisation of Japan's status. She should be given the right to act as any other nation. Her current pacifist nature actually hampers her from doing good rather than limit her from doing harm..
How we view Japan must never change until it acknowledges it's actions in WWII were wrong and apologieses for its actions. Symbolic it may be, but it is what is required.
As for China being more expansionist, thats ridiculous. Maybe symbolically, but the Chinese military is in a much much worse state to make a claim to its "ambitions" than what Japan has. As it is, in terms of conventional weapons, most of China's weapons are still from the 80s. China has nukes but then, its widely acknowledged that Japan has the capability to do likewise in 2 weeks. Comforting thoughts? -
Just to set the record straight. Imperial Japan's actions have to be judged in the era of those times. The war (from their POV) was fought in self-defence becos' of the view that they had only limited supplies of crude and raw material left. They felt let down by Western powers and saw it as blatant hypocrisy that Western powers were allowed to exploit and colonize regions of the world, while they had to play second fiddle. The Japanese did not reap any real benefits following the end of WWI except for the seizure of Tsingtao and some other former German concessions in China. The subsequent Washington Naval Conference proved to the Japanese that there was an 'old boys' club' and she was being excluded becos' she was yellow.Originally posted by Viper52:The difference between Japan and Germany is simple. The Germans have accepted that their actions in WWII is wrong and have apologised repeatedly for their actions. Japan, on the other hand, refuses to acknowledge that it's actions were wrong, insisted it fought in self-defense, denied/whitewashed/ignored repeatedly the litany of war crimes as it swept through the Pacific, and insisted that its occupation of Asia was liberation from colonialism.
Of cos', in the war to rid the Pacific of Western colonialism and raw materials, Japan replaced it with her own form of colonialism, forged out of brutality. That is definately unforgivable.
Totally agree. But this has proven to be difficult and will still continue to be. The Japanese are a proud race; they are proud of their 'Yamato' roots and what it represents. Like many Asians, apologizing publicly is tremendous undertaking for them. They have chosen other paths instead, such as donating money to the building of hospitals, bridges, etc etc, in former conquered territories. The Japanese POV is that they too have paid the price for their belligerence in the Asia-Pacific by being the only state in the world that has been nuked...twice. The repercussions of that can still be felt today...my Japanese friend suffers from occasional headaches and rash outbreaks...all becos' her grandfather was a firefighter in Nagasaki at the time when the A-bomb was dropped, and the medical ailments resulting from radiation have been passed down from one generation to the next and will still continue to do so.How we view Japan must never change until it acknowledges it's actions in WWII were wrong and apologises for its actions. Symbolic it may be, but it is what is required.
Totally agree. The Chinese naval capability is nothing more than 'brown-water' at this point of time. There were some aircraft carrier purchases from Russia, but as it turned out, they were sea-unworthy and pointless to refit and overhaul. One of it ended up being a floating casino. I think the other was cut up and sold for scrap.As for China being more expansionist, thats ridiculous. Maybe symbolically, but the Chinese military is in a much much worse state to make a claim to its "ambitions" than what Japan has. As it is, in terms of conventional weapons, most of China's weapons are still from the 80s. China has nukes but then, its widely acknowledged that Japan has the capability to do likewise in 2 weeks. Comforting thoughts?
In this case where Japan can develop nukes in a fortnight, its a question of first-strike and whether Japan possesses a second-strike capability. One thing we have to remember is that in raw numbers of land mass and population alone, China can inflict severe punishment on all of Japan's home islands (with devastating effects) and yet still absorb nuke attacks on its population and its cities and be functional.
We have to remember that modern Japan is not the same as Imperial Japan anymore. The world and more importantly, the region is not the same as circa 1941-42. I think that its time that Japan step out of its pacifist nature and take a proactive stance in contributing to the security of the Pacific region.
-
u guys didnt c the news few days ago?
one of the Jap Minister claim tat Nanjing Massacre is a big lie..made up the chinese.. -
The character of the People or a Race will seldom change.
It is in the genes.
The Germans will remain an aggressive, technocratic race; systematic in all that they do; relentlessly perfectionist to the end. There remain neo-fascist worshippers with little guise in embracing Nazism.
The Japanese has remained a homogeneous race, abhorrent to the idea of absorbing other races into their society, or even entering into marital relationships with peoples that they deem of “lesser racial status than themselves”.
Like the Germans, the Japanese people have it in their genetic make-up to be industrious, determined and inventive to overcome the odds that nature stack up against them.
The Japanese are ruthlessly efficient, dedicated to the success of the group; systematically efficient and perfectionist in the performance of all tasks.
Both come from societies that embrace military like discipline in almost all spheres of human activities – social, economic, educational and cultural.
Historically, both cultures respect authoritarianism, power, and physical strength and endurance.
While the Germans are largely aware and continuously educated to the open knowledge of the events of WW2, the concentration camps, and gas chambers; it is quixotically surprising that Japan continue to deny its own actions and role in WW2.
The Japanese Government has gone to the extent of changing the contents of history text books for its school children, denying its own role in WW2 - let alone mentioning the existence of its role in large scale massacres in China and throughout Asia, or the existence of Military Chemical Experimentation Camps in Northern China that made tests with the lives of Chinese and Korean prisoners of war and civilians – the lives of these races whom they deem to be worth less then animals.
The Germans, as a nation, are warily conscious of any attempts by its Government to expand the role of its Armed Forces as Peace Keepers in foreign countries – even on UN sanctioned roles. They remain wary and conscious of the Military Budget that its Government plan for any expansion.
Surprisingly, without similar exposure and public awareness of the role that Japan played during WW2, with the exception of some Japanese Pacifists, the larger majority of Japanese Citizens remain oblivious to the significance of the development of the Japanese Military and any foreign excursions that its Military assume overseas.
Why should Japan need an aircraft carrier, even it is to defend itself against North Korea?
Is Japan so far away that is cannot project its air force to hit targets in North Korea?
Until Japan acknowledge its role, stop changing the historical facts of events that had happened in WW2, and educate its Citizens to the events of WW2 – even without making any Public Apology (just to meet them half-way and allow them to save face) – then, and only then can we trust Japan with further development of its Armed Forces.
A leopard never changes its spots.
The Zebra will always have its stripes.
Wake up people, let not history repeat itself. -
I believe that contributions of cash in building bridges, etc, can be viewed from other angles, such as one of sympathy.
All the rest of the world, especially nations in the pacific, want is an official apology from the Japanese government in resorting to violence.
Yes I agree, that the Japanese were treated unfairly after world war 2, and the US, as some Japanee (surprise,surprise) historians put it, literally FORCED japan into the war by unfair treaties and cutting off trade after her invasion of places like Shanghai. But if we look at it from a macro scale, I believe the japanese have more than repaid any unfair US actions against them and definitely more than proven the rest of the world that they are as capable warriors as any other.
That the US napalmed Tokyo, and nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima has to be viewed from another angle. Consider what would have happened if the US had not resorted to napalms and nukes. Bear in mind that the Japanese leaders were already distributing weapons to the civilian population. Also, civilian Japanese living on pacific islands used by the US in their island hopping campaign threw their children, and then themselves into the sea to avoid being taken prisoner by the Marines shows the determination of the Japanese to carry on fighitng at all cost.
A blood bath would have resulted when the Allies invaded Japan mainland had the US not resorted to nuking and firebombing.
I think that war would have continued if not for the bombing of the above mentioned cities.
And yes, the Japanese are proud people and that they have their pride which makes it difficult for them to apologise. However, this is NOT a sufficiently strong reason for the Japanese not to apologise.
That the Japanese have not been pressed by its more important partners, such as the US, does not mean that it should not apologise. By ignoring the angry countries closer to itself, is it not also treating these countries with an air of superiority and indifference? Similar to the attitude Japanese suffered from before WW2?
How can Japan and its supporters continue to ignore the angry Korean and Chinese peoples? And how can Japan, even before issuing an official apology for its grievious crimes, think of abandoning its pacifist policy?
my two cents -
If Japan makes trouble again, let her be nuked agaiN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
except this time nuke by DPRKOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:If Japan makes trouble again, let her be nuked agaiN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
Why must the Sinic civilization keep wanting to fight among itself....There is a greater enemy out there -THE GREEN PERIL...
-
It is quite difficult to see any symptoms of the Sinic Civilization being war mongering, as for the last sixty years there is no major wars waged against one another on this side of the land mass - using the Mekong River as the dividing line of Asia, and to define the extent of the Sinic Civilization.Originally posted by Doenitz:Why must the Sinic civilization keep wanting to fight among itself....There is a greater enemy out there -THE GREEN PERIL...
The Korean Peninsula is an anomaly that remained unresolved from the 1950's; while the Vietnam War was a fight for independence from foreign dominance and foreign imposed political arrangement in the land area identified then as Indochina.
Over the same period of sixty years, there are more fraticidal wars fought in the African, Arabic, Indian and Latin Worlds; and also the violent internal separatists wars fought in the Caucasian World of Spain, France, Russia, Yugoslavia and Northern Ireland.
If we include the use of military force by USA and UK over the last twenty years, the other civilizations have waged more wars against others then the Sinic Civilization against itself or towards others outside of this region. -
I concur with laser. An apology implies guilt, which Japan has singularly failed to admit, and therein lies the problem. As has been stated in previous posts, Japan's stance was that she was simply protecting her own interests. Since that stance has never changed, it leaves open the possibility of Japan starting another war should they perceive similar circumstances to arise.
Most of the Germans that I have dealt with tend to turn a shade pale when something even peripherally related to World War 2 is mentioned, seemingly having developed an allergy to the idea of war. The Japanese, on the other hand, are not so much in denial as unaware of the circumstances and implications - that makes for a particularly dangerous situation.
Macross, do you seriously want this to happen again?
Apologies to the posters for the rude photograph, but it is only slightly less repugnant than the unthinking, callous attitude that prompted it. -
POST ACCIDENTALLY DELETED BY ADMIN.
THANKS A LOT VIPER52!!!
I REALLY APPRECIATE U REMOVING MY ENTIRE POST EVEN THOUGH ALL WANTED TO DO WAS REPLY TO ONE SMALL PART!!!
MAYBE YOU'LL REMOVE THIS ONE TOO???
-
I think the nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were justified. It remains a debatable topic though.The world was facing an impending and imminent threat from japan and the axis of evil. They have swept through most of South East Asia. It would be a threat to US interests since US bases were in the Phillippines and South Pacific.
In the war, bu shi ni si jiu shi wo wang. Whoever dies loses and whoever survives is victorious. The worst thing that can happen is US falling under Japan's rule and probably all the americans are wearing kimonos ,watching japanese drama and speaking Jap now. It did not turn out that way, partly because of the atomic bombs. For your info, the nukes now they've developed have the potential to be 700 times more powerful than those dropped in the famous Hiroshima.
We cannot limit of minds to what these government figures are thinking. For all you know, they might be taking advantage of the world situation to advance their own interests. The press is only a facade of things unseen.
In the midst of the US- North Korean nuke negotiations, US-Iran nuke negotiations, the recent Iraq war downgrading into a guerilla battle, the Middle East pandemonium between Israel and Palestinians and the terror group Hamas, the world's war on terror etc etc. US is currently so busy dealing with all these problems and Japan's development of the carriers will probably not get much attention from US at all.
They really have no need for carriers. Purpose of carriers is act as a deterrent to any budding conflict and to launch long range attacks. I don't think it is applicable to using them on North Korea since they are only a stone's throw away from each other. Whatever it is. Just hope no World War III will never be written as history again. -
CX, I'm very very sorry, I edited your excellent post instead of replying to it, please accept my sincerest apologies.
My butterfingers strike again.
-
and i'm supposed to accept your apologies and not be SUPREMELY P I S S E D OFF by the fact that u mutiliated a post that took me a rather long time to type out???Originally posted by Viper52:CX, I'm very very sorry, I edited your excellent post instead of replying to it, please accept my sincerest apologies.
My butterfingers strike again.
if u can't handle admin privileges, i suggest u relinquish them and use another nick.
this is the worst instance of admin incompetence i've ever seen in this forum! -
Originally posted by saintboy:
war is cruel, i agree, but mass murder of none-combatants by any party is still mass murder.
I think the nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were justified. It remains a debatable topic though.The world was facing an impending and imminent threat from japan and the axis of evil. They have swept through most of South East Asia. It would be a threat to US interests since US bases were in the Phillippines and South Pacific.
we curse the Nazi's name because they perpetrated the holocaust. we curse the Japanese because of the Nanking massacre.
why do we so agree with US unrestricted submarine warfare even though it affected more civillians than combatants, when German U-Boats almost certainly affected more combatants than civillians.
The US was supposed to be neutral, but its actions were decidedly not so. double standards...
so how then, can we accept US firebombing and atomic attacks when it targeted CIVILLIANS deliberately.
besides, the Japanese were already starving from US submarines. it might actually not be necessary to use the A-bomb.In the war, bu shi ni si jiu shi wo wang. Whoever dies loses and whoever survives is victorious. The worst thing that can happen is US falling under Japan's rule and probably all the americans are wearing kimonos ,watching japanese drama and speaking Jap now. It did not turn out that way, partly because of the atomic bombs. For your info, the nukes now they've developed have the potential to be 700 times more powerful than those dropped in the famous Hiroshima.
PLEASE LAH! do u know your history? the Japanese could never have won! documents unearthed after the war shows this! the more level headed military leaders always knew they had to avoid war with USA at all cost... it is the pig headed militarists who wouldn't listen.We cannot limit of minds to what these government figures are thinking. For all you know, they might be taking advantage of the world situation to advance their own interests. The press is only a facade of things unseen.
thats also my point: u don't know so how can u deny them their sovereign right to defend themselves? unless US is willing to guarantee Japan's defence 100% with the 7th fleet permanently based in Osaka, they rightly deserve to claim that they need a more forward oriented defence capability.
i'm not saying that they should have it. i'm saying that u can't deny them unless u have very good reasons and historical baggage is not one of them.In the midst of the US- North Korean nuke negotiations, US-Iran nuke negotiations, the recent Iraq war downgrading into a guerilla battle, the Middle East pandemonium between Israel and Palestinians and the terror group Hamas, the world's war on terror etc etc. US is currently so busy dealing with all these problems and Japan's development of the carriers will probably not get much attention from US at all.
thats probably why they feel that they need to take their defence back into their own hands.They really have no need for carriers. Purpose of carriers is act as a deterrent to any budding conflict and to launch long range attacks. I don't think it is applicable to using them on North Korea since they are only a stone's throw away from each other. Whatever it is. Just hope no World War III will never be written as history again.
purpose of a carrier is to project military power. yes, it is an offensive weapons platform. actually, they're not THAT close to North Korea... a carrier to project its military power closer to the peninsula would be more re-assuring considering that a korean nuke can probably reach Japan in a matter of minutes after launch.
time is of the essence... the worse case scenario would be that it will have to take out korean missile facilities to pre-empt a launch. and even that may not protect them entirely... that's why they're also developing a missile shield.
i'm not pro-anybody... i just prefer to see things without applying too much historical baggage to present situations... the historical insight is valuable, but it can also hinder your objectivity. -
Well its nice to see Mr Perfect himself has never made a mistake in whatever he has done his entire life.Originally posted by CX:and i'm supposed to accept your apologies and not be SUPREMELY P I S S E D OFF by the fact that u mutiliated a post that took me a rather long time to type out???
if u can't handle admin privileges, i suggest u relinquish them and use another nick.
this is the worst instance of admin incompetence i've ever seen in this forum!
If you can't accept my apology, nor the fact that the moderators here are human and can make mistakes, why don't you take you opinions somewhere with perfect moderators, or perhaps start your own forum and be the "perfect" moderator? -
don't give me that arsewipe.Originally posted by Viper52:Well its nice to see Mr Perfect himself has never made a mistake in whatever he has done his entire life.
If you can't accept my apology, nor the fact that the moderators here are human and can make mistakes, why don't you take you opinions somewhere with perfect moderators, or perhaps start your own forum and be the "perfect" moderator?
fact: u messed up my post.
fact: i have every reason to be upset with that.
if u can't handle it, maybe u can shoot yourself or jump off a roof or something. i'm not overly concerned with your fragile ego. -
It's only two planes... Relax..
-
Ahhh...now you turn to insults. Mature....Originally posted by CX:don't give me that arsewipe.
fact: u messed up my post.
fact: i have every reason to be upset with that.
if u can't handle it, maybe u can shoot yourself or jump off a roof or something. i'm not overly concerned with your fragile ego.
Fact: I've apologised. You refused to accept it nor the fact that an honest mistake was made, thats fine with me. Its no skin off my teeth.
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is done. If you don't like it, well, we've already discussed your options. Maybe you should follow your own advice.