Japan want 2 aircraft carrier. . .die liao die liao
-
Gedanken:
If it will stop them from killing us first then why not? -
CX, has it occured to you it would be more productive to just retype the whole thing then to drag this on in some lously grudge fest that nobody has a desire to see here?
Basically, if you have a problem, you can go sulk or scream like a enraged babbon and bare your fangs, hulk smash... wait you already are doing that now...
But it's only you you're hurting... it's your funeral... the world will go on... -
fine... suppose i pay lips-service to your token gesture and say "oh Viper52, i do accept your apology" what does that change?Originally posted by Viper52:Ahhh...now you turn to insults. Mature....
Fact: I've apologised. You refused to accept it nor the fact that an honest mistake was made, thats fine with me. Its no skin off my teeth.
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is done. If you don't like it, well, we've already discussed your options. Maybe you should follow your own advice.
absolutely NOTHING!
pple spend time and effort to write replies.
it is extremely offensive to have posts altered especially if it was by accident!
i can certainly accept it if i am deemed being inflammatory and inciting a flame war; this is an online community and we respect each other's quirks and idiosyncracies... but by accident! my goodness!
its like the veteran who survives deadly minefields, enemy ambushes and daring assaults on enemy fortified positions, but kena shot by his buddy accidentally while clearing his arms in camp... bummer!
say sorry until so buay song... might as well just diam diam don't say... -
My original apology, last edited 2003-07-18 11:52:47 before the tirade aimed at me was startedOriginally posted by CX:fine... suppose i pay lips-service to your token gesture and say "oh Viper52, i do accept your apology" what does that change?
absolutely NOTHING!
pple spend time and effort to write replies.
it is extremely offensive to have posts altered especially if it was by accident!
i can certainly accept it if i am deemed being inflammatory and inciting a flame war; this is an online community and we respect each other's quirks and idiosyncracies... but by accident! my goodness!
its like the veteran who survives deadly minefields, enemy ambushes and daring assaults on enemy fortified positions, but kena shot by his buddy accidentally while clearing his arms in camp... bummer!
say sorry until so buay song... might as well just diam diam don't say...CX, I'm very very sorry, I edited your excellent post instead of replying to it, please accept my sincerest apologies.
Whats so buay song about it?
My butterfingers strike again.
SingaporeTyrannosaur has hit the nail on the head. I will not waste my breath and everyone's bandwidth by saying anything more. -
Alright people...cool it....let's get back to the topic shall we?
Let me restart...
Militarily speaking, I don't actually see a problem if Japan were to acquire aircraft carriers. In fact, as earlier mentioned, the strike distance for JSDF aircraft is quite far. Even with in-flight refueling, the turnaround time would be longer since they would have to head back to the nearest home island (Kyushu I think) to rearm. To have a floating airstrip would enable rapid sorties against a N. Korean juggernaut should it ever happen.
I would have a problem if Japan were to acquire nukes...
Politically speaking, Japan would have to deal with its past first even before the aircraft carriers are commissioned. Globally speaking, alot of countries (esp. the U.S.) are pressing Japan to undetake a more active role in military or peace operations. Regionally, states have been reluctant to acknowledge a proposed wider presence of JSDF, no doubt becos' they were past victims of Japanese aggression. -
Originally posted by Tango1:
i sense such undertones as well.... such a mindset regionally is not helpful at all... like when Japan offered peacekeepers to East Timor, East Timor actually said "no" in a rather unfriendly way...
I would have a problem if Japan were to acquire nukes...
Politically speaking, Japan would have to deal with its past first even before the aircraft carriers are commissioned. Globally speaking, alot of countries (esp. the U.S.) are pressing Japan to undetake a more active role in military or peace operations. Regionally, states have been reluctant to acknowledge a proposed wider presence of JSDF, no doubt becos' they were past victims of Japanese aggression.
guess pple have to rationalise and contextualise the fact that this isn't the 1930s... the situations are different. Just cos Japan has a rather unsightly history doesn't mean that it is not able to contribute positively to its neighbours now.
all that remains is to see if a stronger JSDF will stabilise or de-stabilise the region... i think it will raise some political heckling, but it might actually add to the stability of the region. esp the korean peninsula.
personally, if Japan was to start acting like a normal country, i'm ok with that. -
Originally posted by CX:
Hi CX,
i sense such undertones as well.... such a mindset regionally is not helpful at all... like when Japan offered peacekeepers to East Timor, East Timor actually said "no" in a rather unfriendly way...
guess pple have to rationalise and contextualise the fact that this isn't the 1930s... the situations are different. Just cos Japan has a rather unsightly history doesn't mean that it is not able to contribute positively to its neighbours now.
all that remains is to see if a stronger JSDF will stabilise or de-stabilise the region... i think it will raise some political heckling, but it might actually add to the stability of the region. esp the korean peninsula.
personally, if Japan was to start acting like a normal country, i'm ok with that.
I did see your article before it vaporised accidentally by Viper, and which I see had caused some heat.
Not to worry, I had intended to reply on my return from a quick 48 hour trip.
While your views are generous towards the Japanese, concerning their possible positive contributions in the present day, many people across Asia who have suffered the ruthless and babaric Samurai, Shinto and Bushido spirit of the Japanese are reluctant to be so.
The fact remain that the Japanese Government - (unlike the Germans) - have refused to acknowledge their contributory role and the ruthlessly babaric behaviour of the Japanese Military in Asia.
Unlike the Germans, the Japanese Government have persisted to change and distorted the WW2 events in the contents of the history books for their school children.
While the Germans have banned Nazism and do not even pay homage to the cemetry of Nazi War Criminals, every successive Japanese Prime Minister is required to pay homage at the shrine of their War Dead that include the Government Militarist Prime Minister of Japan during WW2.
In your article that was accidentally vaporized by Viper, you had correctly objected to charaterization of people by race - (as we have been brought up in Singapore).
Sadly, as much as anyone will want to avoid to speak in racial overtones, the fact remain that racial characteristics differ from one racial group to another, and each race will have different reactions to differing cause and effect affecting their character.
Much as you like, you will hear about the "hot blooded temper" of a person from the latin world; or the dead block mentality of a Texan cowboy; or the coldness of a China Girl; or the heated passion of some girls from some countries
Even our SM LKY had made a keen observation that using the Mekong as a dividing line, he noticed that the peoples (race ?) that live east of the Mekong are more energetic, enterprising, and industrious; while those living west of the Mekong, are more idyllic, carefree, and have different less energetic priorities.
The fact that successive Japanese Government comes from the ruling LDP - (and Japan has never seen any other political party since WW2), and also that the LDP is supported by many Japanese industrial giants with links to the military past, have all added weight to the fear that Japan cannot admit their role and responsibilities to the atrocities committed across Asia, and the peace is but a short respite (lasting a few decades).
Since the Japanese Government did not, will not, and cannot admit the Japanese "National Guilt" of the HISTORICAL atrocities, - (which their Military had committed in the name of the Japanese Emperor) - against the Asian neighbors, will put a stronger onus on them to expunge the memory from their fellow-Asians towards them.
Racial characteristics that are determined by culture, history, and social practices will be important in our understanding as to the future threats from any one country challenging Asia as a whole, or towards Singapore.
One of the Principles in Sun Tze's Art of War, require us to know our opposition - (in total ? including the characteristics of the race opposing or threatening us ? ) . -
Originally posted by Atobe:
militarism and armed aggression by any other name is still that: militarism, and armed aggression... the Samurai spirit and the Bushido is not inherently belligerent and cruel. it is in fact a code of honour. not to mention that the brainwashed conscripts who swarmed over S.E.Asia in the 1940s were children of peasants, not samurais... and infused with ideas of Fascism and racial superiority nonsence disguised as Bushido.
While your views are generous towards the Japanese, concerning their possible positive contributions in the present day, many people across Asia who have suffered the ruthless and babaric Samurai, Shinto and Bushido spirit of the Japanese are reluctant to be so.The fact remain that the Japanese Government - (unlike the Germans) - have refused to acknowledge their contributory role and the ruthlessly babaric behaviour of the Japanese Military in Asia.
i agree that this impedes normalisation of relations between countries formerly occupied by Japan and it disgusts me that they do it so shamelessly, but as mentioned before, they were able to get away with it because they see themselves as victims as well... its deeply ingrained into their psyche that THEY were the first to be nuked.
Unlike the Germans, the Japanese Government have persisted to change and distorted the WW2 events in the contents of the history books for their school children.
right or wrong, who's to say? did the nuke save more lives than it took? was it justified? the arguments go both way...
and until the US is able to reconcile the fact that they nuked Japanese civillians to save American lives, u can't take the Japanese fully to task for their atrocities...
besides, the "war criminals" aka. scape-goats have already been dealt with... those deemed "useful" had been even allowed to "disappear" thanks to the same pple who captured them.
that is the problem with the Japanese reconciliation of the war... by selectively enforcing war crimes on certain unfortunate scapegoats... the rest of the population and future generations are encouraged to forget and move on...While the Germans have banned Nazism and do not even pay homage to the cemetry of Nazi War Criminals, every successive Japanese Prime Minister is required to pay homage at the shrine of their War Dead that include the Government Militarist Prime Minister of Japan during WW2.
thats the difference betw the Japs and the Germans... as mentioned, the legacy of Nazism and the Holocaust have become an inalienable part of their identity... but at the same time, collective guilt has allowed the main perpetrators to get away as well cos no one person is deemed at fault.
thats why Mossad had to hunt Nazis years after the war ended... cos most of them got away!!! the Nuremberg war trials were mostly show trials targeted at the top level Nazis.In your article that was accidentally vaporized by Viper, you had correctly objected to charaterization of people by race - (as we have been brought up in Singapore).
i would've preferred to cite a combination of environmental, social, economic and cultural factors rather than "race"...
Sadly, as much as anyone will want to avoid to speak in racial overtones, the fact remain that racial characteristics differ from one racial group to another, and each race will have different reactions to differing cause and effect affecting their character.Much as you like, you will hear about the "hot blooded temper" of a person from the latin world; or the dead block mentality of a Texan cowboy; or the coldness of a China Girl; or the heated passion of some girls from some countries
hee... those are called "shallow stereotypes" ...Even our SM LKY had made a keen observation that using the Mekong as a dividing line, he noticed that the peoples (race ?) that live east of the Mekong are more energetic, enterprising, and industrious; while those living west of the Mekong, are more idyllic, carefree, and have different less energetic priorities.
again, its more environmental, economic and social... i don't agree with everything LKY says... some of it is really quite facetious... dude got his education and his leanings in London... the home of Eugenics...The fact that successive Japanese Government comes from the ruling LDP - (and Japan has never seen any other political party since WW2), and also that the LDP is supported by many Japanese industrial giants with links to the military past, have all added weight to the fear that Japan cannot admit their role and responsibilities to the atrocities committed across Asia, and the peace is but a short respite (lasting a few decades).
please... war is bad for business... if they were allied with zaibatsus, the zaibatsus, why would they shoot themselves in the foot by wanting to start a war? Japan's wealth is due to post-war stability, not war gains.Since the Japanese Government did not, will not, and cannot admit the Japanese "National Guilt" of the HISTORICAL atrocities, - (which their Military had committed in the name of the Japanese Emperor) - against the Asian neighbors, will put a stronger onus on them to expunge the memory from their fellow-Asians towards them.
as if anybody can forget in a hurry
its not up to them to decide who remembers and who forgets u know...Racial characteristics that are determined by culture, history, and social practices will be important in our understanding as to the future threats from any one country challenging Asia as a whole, or towards Singapore.
if they're determined by so many things, then why cite genetics to be over-riding???One of the Principles in Sun Tze's Art of War, require us to know our opposition - (in total ? including the characteristics of the race opposing or threatening us ? ) .
sun tzu never said "race"... he said know they enemy and know yourself... -
While Japan has made startling progress from the ashes of WW2, some portions of the Japanese leadership – both in politics and industries – are still linked to the “not too distant glorified past”.
While the spirit of the Samurai and Bushido demands a Code of Honor in the behavior of its Practitioners, it offers little guidance in the manner that those Practitioners should treat their victims or opponents in a manner that we will understand to be a humane way.
Unfortunately, the Practitioners of such beliefs treat themselves and their victims with Honor in Death, committing “hara-kiri” by disemboweling themselves to maintain honor, or dispatching their victims with a clean cut of their sword – by beheading, or dying with honor in the battlefield in self-sacrifice.
There are other aspects of the Samurai Spirit to be admired – as in the Code of humility, loyalty, simple living, upholding of justice and honor.
However, the Samurai and Bushido spirit are militant in nature; and while in WW2, the general conscripts of the Japanese Imperial Army were from the peasantry and lower industrial class, the Officer Corp of the Japanese Imperial Army was imbued with the Spirit of the Samurai and Bushido, as part of their training. The mystique of Shintoism also played apart to reinforce these teachings.
It is the Officer Corp of the Japanese Imperial Army that was primarily responsible for the large-scale atrocities throughout Asia and South-east Asia; and many were hunted down and prosecuted as war criminals – see the Nanking Massacre, in which two Japanese Officers held a competition between themselves, to determine the biggest number of execution by beheading the Nanking population.
Genetics will make what a Man to be - while the experiences from circumstances, life’s events, culture, social and society’s influences, history, and a whole host of other influences will form and mould the person – to either reinforce or bend his genetic make-up.
We cannot ignore the fact that some brilliantly famous people – whether politicians, scientists, or rouges and war criminals - appear from the most unlikely background, most being influenced and molded by the experiences from the circumstances of the society, history, culture from which they emerged from birth.
During WW2, how did the majority of an entire nation of Germany get swept away by the disciplined and organized militancy of Nazism, despite the madness – if not from the common genetic make up of the whole race that accepts such militant discipline ?
While the Germans and Japanese are now better educated, industrialized, and have a standard of living far beyond those experienced before WW2, there remain pockets of “worshippers” within each society of the glorious memory of the not-too-distant past.
While war is generally bad for normal business, it will be beneficial to the war industries.
However, with history nearly turning one full cycle, since the last economic crunch that led to WW-1 and WW-2, have we (lesser Asians) missed out something that the Japanese have not, in their sudden interest to build two new aircraft carriers - during this current long economic depressed cycle ?
The Japanese are known to look and plan far ahead.
Have they seen something in the distant future that require them to have these two aircraft carriers, in the light of the present changes to the world economic, political and resource order ?
Co-incidentally, the Japanese have suddenly took on serious interests in sending their soldiers on UN Humanitarian Mission to East Timor and Iraq; and had offered Aegis Destroyers to support US Navy during the recent Gulf War.
It starts with innocent moves, such as attempts to familiarize the German and Japanese soldiers with foreign military operation – either on UN sanctioned peace keeping roles, or on UN Humanitarian Rescue and Support work.
The development of our SAF started with similar modest beginnings, and after thirty years, the SAF went on with Medical Support during the First Gulf War; followed by the dispatching of senior SAF Officers as Peace Keeping Monitors.
Ten years later, we are contributing Combat Troops to East Timor to maintain Peace and Order – although they were sent after the major part of the hostilities were taken care of by the Australian Troops.
Who can say that in another ten years, the SAF will not be sent to a Live Combat Zone to gain real combat experiences ?
We have no similar Samurai or Bushido spirit in our Culture – whether from India, Malay Archipelago, China, or from the Eurasian ancestral lands coming from Europe.
Our present foreign military adventurism is largely peaceful in intent, but already it allow the SAF to gain wide exposure and experiences in long distance military operations – planning, logistics, and signals.
Our various racial genetic make-ups (influenced by our “common experience” with each other’s culture, shared history, common and shared social influences), and the size of our country and population do not make us as any more militant or belligerent or pose a threat to our larger neighbor.
However, this cannot be said of Japan, with pockets of militants still existing in Japanese Society and the refusal of the Japanese Political System – and other “Powers that be” hiding within Zaibatsu and other lesser known influential groups in the shadows - to acknowledge their role and responsibilities during WW-2.
The Japanese military can also gain similar experiences that have been lost from this generation in the Japanese Military, from decades of restricted operations beyond the shores of Japan.
If one has to be prepared for the worst in the outcome of any military conflicts, then one has to consider all aspects of the potential threats from the expected opponents.
While Sun Tze never included "race" in his war principle of "Understanding Your Enemy" - it demands also thoroughness in the study of the Enemy.
We will have to be thorough in our study of our “enemy”, we must understand his character from his genetic point (racial), as well as those other sets of mentioned influences that can mold and form his basic genetic characteristics.
The Israelis won over the Arabs many times, as they understood the Arabs. The Egyptians were able to succeed their limited war plan during the Yom Kippur war, as they understood the character of the Israelis during this period of festive worship.
All living beings are born with a set of genetic traits that bend according to Life’s influences – (I prefer the word “bend” instead of “change”, as some do not or may not be changed by Life’s events) . -
As a continuation to the above, for some background understanding of Japanese militancy, please visit the following websites:
Origins of the Samurai
http://www.northnet.org/americankangdukwon/samurai.html
What is Bushido ?
http://www.shotokai.cl/filosofia/06_ee_.html
Code of Bushido
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/bushido/bindex.html
Samurai, Ninjas and Salary Men: What the Martial Arts Really Tell Us About Japan
http://www.fpri.org/fpriwire/0402.199609.hurst.martialartsjapan.html
Japan, Buddhism, and Military Atrocities
http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h07japan.htm
Shintoism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm -
Atobe,
look, with regards to Japan and WW2, i can meet you halfway and agree that the situation of that time, coupled with the multitude of factors; shintoism, bushido, samurai spirit, militarism, fascism, industrial interest, came together and exploded into the carnage of WW2.
i can very well agree with a multi-causal explaination of how events came to transpire in that era..
... but....We cannot ignore the fact that some brilliantly famous people – whether politicians, scientists, or rouges and war criminals - appear from the most unlikely background, most being influenced and molded by the experiences from the circumstances of the society, history, culture from which they emerged from birth.
the fact that this happens means that it is not solely due to genetics. man is as much an individual as he is part of his society.During WW2, how did the majority of an entire nation of Germany get swept away by the disciplined and organized militancy of Nazism, despite the madness – if not from the common genetic make up of the whole race that accepts such militant discipline ?
how? the 1930s was the era of mass political movements: loud speakers, mass media, gov't controlled propaganda mediums!
how can u attribute genetics to this? its totally mis-attributed. their culture and traditions makes them susceptible to the contents of the propaganda, this i agree... but their genes???
the Nazis were just as skillful in this as well... Josef Geobbels was way ahead of his time.
the reaction of the German or japanese pple was not genetically determined. they were very skillfully convinced to react in ways which their gov'ts wanted them to react through the careful managment of information.While the Germans and Japanese are now better educated, industrialized, and have a standard of living far beyond those experienced before WW2, there remain pockets of “worshippers” within each society of the glorious memory of the not-too-distant past.
whackos like that exist everywhere... as u mentioned, they are "pockets", minority... not much concern in this. we can't give up eating for fear of choking. -
*Sigh* I see my time is being wasted on someone who cannot get his head out of a Manga comic.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Gedanken:
If it will stop them from killing us first then why not? -
The effects of genetics tends to affect families and not entire genetically diverse groups that countries are made up of. I would be inclined to view the highlighted characteristics of Germans and Japanese as being more social and cultural than genetic. In any case, the difference between the two in this argument is academic.
My interpretation of the key question here is, "Based upon their view of WW2, given a similar set of circumstances, would the Japanese act the way in the 1930's?". I believe the answer to this question is yes. If they have not seen fit to apologise for their actions, they do not acknowledge these actions to be wrong, and so would lack this barrier against acting this way again. Their having been attacked with nuclear weapons is irrelevant in this question, because it was not a factor when they embarked upon their conquests.
I am perhaps oversimplifying things by summarising the impetus for Japan's starting a war as their economic situation based upon their lack of natural resources. The steel and oil required for Japanese manufacturing must come from other countries, and this lack of self-sufficiency has always been a weak point that other countries could squeeze. Given that this situation still exists, and that the Japanese never saw anything wrong with their actions to deal with such circumstances, one needs to ask, "What is there to prevent them from doing the same thing again?". -
Hi CX,
Many thanks for your effort in meeting me half way to the contents posted.
While I can understand the direction that you are making with your effort to uncouple genetics from the history of a people, I am particularly curious in this topic especially when seen from the point in which some criminal streak are commonly found in some families - (genetic link ? ) .
There are cultures that are more susceptible to negative influences, as when one can repeatedly find incest occurring particularly in the consciousness of one racial group more then in the conscience of other racial groups.
While I can understand that the 1930Â’s were a very turbulent period, it does not explain away how an entire nation (or at least the majority of its people) can be so easily swept away by mass psychology, and accept the ruthless extermination and barbaric treatment to peoples of other genetic groups.
In my previous post, you mentioned that some terms referring to specific racial or social groups is merely stereo-typing, but I wonder if such classification is inaccurate to the point that it describe the group for what they truly are.
The genetic make-up of the Germans will probably explain for the up-surge in the present number of skinheads appearing in German society, and the genetically related equivalent found amongst the skinheads in UK, and also the distant relations also known as “Red Necks” in the USA.
You will not find similar acceptance of such cultural or behavioral anomaly in other genetic groups that embraces the worship racial superiority and hints of admiration towards Nazism.
Many nations have seen local ethnic or tribal military battles of different scales in their history – from the Aztecs of Central America, to China’s Wars of the Kingdoms, to Japan’s internal Wars of the Shoguns, to the "Wars of Conquests" in South-east Asian kingdoms, and that of South and West Asian Empires of India, Persia, Arab and Turkish Sultanates – but the world did not see the scale of war as fought by the efficiency and military organization achieved by both Germany and Japan with mass loyalty and acceptance.
It was with thorough and ruthless efficiency that these two Nations executed wars, and carried out ethnic cleansing with such brutish efficiency that there do not seem to be any other parallel in history to compare with.
It is genetics that makes a race.
It is the race that makes up a society, its culture, its social norms, its politics, its history, and its national (racial), industrial and economic character, all of which in turn will also mold or reinforce the innate genetic make-up of the person born into such a place.
Some race are more war like than others, what can we attribute this to ?
I would attribute it to the genetic make-up of the person and the people from which he came from.
While there exist those "pockets" of admirers in Japanese and German Societies, if these small "pockets" in Japan hold influential positions that affect the political positions of Government, we will be in for a heady time ahead if we let our guard down.
While we must still eat even if we fear of choking on the food that we eat, we must learn to be able to discern what can be eaten, and in what size; and also to identify the types of food that will pose problems for us in the present and in the distant future. -
Japan forced into WW2 by the western powers? Haha.
Try reading a book called the "Far Eastern File."
It reveals all the intelligence and espionage operations carried out by Japanese Intelligence even while Britain were their allies. They infiltrated China, Malaya, and Singapore long before they entered the war. They mapped out landing sites, bridges, pretended to be tourist and went on "Aerial tours" of the peninsular.
Kinda explains their blitzkrieg down the peninsular eh? Guess, what? Some of their agents were even bicycle experts, stationed along the peninsular to help maintain their bikes when they were moving down.
The ambitious nature of the Japanese is something that cannot be taken lightly. Although their acquisition of 2 carriers would definitely aid in the balance of power of the region, their operations must also be closely monitored. They were after all, once a superpower, who knows, somebody in their ranks might still want to see their country become a superpower again. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
don't underestimate the depths of human depravity and the power of the masses.
While I can understand that the 1930Â’s were a very turbulent period, it does not explain away how an entire nation (or at least the majority of its people) can be so easily swept away by mass psychology, and accept the ruthless extermination and barbaric treatment to peoples of other genetic groups.
normally, u and i wouldn't be driven to kill our neighbours, burn their homes and blame them for all our problems.
but if the mass media played it up and a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign to direct our latent anger, and infiltrated agitators into the masses, u can have something along the lines Crystal Night.
the key is to empower individuals through masses. once empowered, they will become blind to their individual conscience. the collective will overwhelm them and subjugate them.
race, ethnicity and nationality is secondary. u can make the swiss Nazis under the correct set of circumstances and given the correct agitation.Many nations have seen local ethnic or tribal military battles of different scales in their history – from the Aztecs of Central America, to China’s Wars of the Kingdoms, to Japan’s internal Wars of the Shoguns, to the "Wars of Conquests" in South-east Asian kingdoms, and that of South and West Asian Empires of India, Persia, Arab and Turkish Sultanates – but the world did not see the scale of war as fought by the efficiency and military organization achieved by both Germany and Japan with mass loyalty and acceptance.
that's because they were fundamentally different types of war. in military history, there is a line drawn between the wars of the19th century and those before that.
the Napoleonic wars was often the dividing line though some agree to disagree.
WW1 and WW2 obviously falls into the post-19th century line... Modern Wars. they were fought with the full extent of national industries, economics and will. railroads, steel and chemicals did wonders in increasing the efficiency of warfare.
and soldiers don't just follow commanders and ideologies... they follow victory.It was with thorough and ruthless efficiency that these two Nations executed wars, and carried out ethnic cleansing with such brutish efficiency that there do not seem to be any other parallel in history to compare with.
there isn't a precedent because it was something unique... the excesses of industrialisation if u ask me... it probably had something to do with the fact that Germans were known to be efficient (come on... anyone who's driven a Benz or a Beemer knows that them krauts are GREAT engineers ), but they had very good equipment to help them as well...
as mentioned, steel, chemicals, railroads... not to mentioned that IBM actually found it profitable to sell the Nazis their new mainframes to count Jews.It is genetics that makes a race.
i'm never too sure about that... (not convinced at all actually...) but like i said, i'll meet u halfway and say for the sake of this conversation, that there are many contributing factors and race [bmay[/b] be one of them though it would be rather shallow and really stupid to overwhelmingly attribute anything to ONE cause/factor.
It is the race that makes up a society, its culture, its social norms, its politics, its history, and its national (racial), industrial and economic character, all of which in turn will also mold or reinforce the innate genetic make-up of the person born into such a place.
Some race are more war like than others, what can we attribute this to ? -
Atobe, there have been no research findngs that indicate that genetics can have such a widespread effect. Thus far, while there have been studies that demonstrate how genetics can affect patterns of behaviour, these have been found mainly in monozygotic (identical twins) - the effect of genetics on the behaviour on dizygotic (fraternal) twins has been found to be much weaker, indicating that unless people have exactly identical genetic makeups, the effects on behaviour are not very strong. Besides, if genetics had such a strong effect, we would see the same thing happening in North India, where the Aryans descended from.
I would recommend the works of Leon Festinger, Henri Tajfel and, more recently, Michael Hogg for an explanation of how Germany was swept into Nazism. In the 1950s, Festinger developed Social Comparison Theory, while Tajfel worked on Social Categorisation Theory, and over the years later researchers have integrated their theories.
The crux of these theories is that there are two kinds of groups - those that you belong to, and everybody else. We tend to identify ourselves by the groups that we belong to, and we build our self-esteem by comparing our group favourably in comparison to other groups. In extreme circumstances, this disparity in comparison results in the other groups being viewed as degenerates, as the Jews, Slavs and other Nazi target groups were. An example of such extreme circumstances is the state of the German economy during the Great Depression, which was ripe for the picking because the German people needed someone to blame. Over the past fifty years, experiments testing Tajfel's and Festinger's theories have shown that such an effect exists, and that this effect applies across different cultures.
As for the loyalty angle, Stanley Milgram at Yale University performed a set of experiments in 1961, examining the "obedience to authority defense" used at Nuremberg. To quote a description of the experiment:
"In the experiment, so-called "teachers" (who were actually the unknowing subjects of the experiment) were recruited by Milgram. They were asked administer an electric shock of increasing intensity to a "learner" for each mistake he made during the experiment. The fictitious story given to these "teachers" was that the experiment was exploring effects of punishment (for incorrect responses) on learning behavior. The "teacher" was not aware that the "learner" in the study was actually an actor - - merely indicating discomfort as the "teacher" increased the electric shocks.
When the "teacher" asked whether increased shocks should be given he/she was verbally encouraged to continue. Sixty percent of the "teachers" obeyed orders to punish the learner to the very end of the 450-volt scale! No subject stopped before reaching 300 volts!"
The subjects in these experiments were not German - they were good old clean-cut Americans. Over 25 years, between 1961 and 1985, the same results were found in repeats of the study in Australia, South Africa and in several European countries, until the experiments were finally banned as being unethical.
In all of the experiments conducted over that period, at least two thirds of the subjects delivered electric shocks, even theough they were distressed by having to do it.
The key finding of the Milgram experiments is quite simple: such behaviour is not restricted to any specific culture.
As for the skinheads, the skinheads in Germany are not related to either those in the UK nor the rednecks in the US, who are predominantly Anglo-Saxon, not Aryan. Also, their presence is nothing new; when I was in England ten years ago, I was advised to give Exmouth a wide berth because the skinhead party had finally been voted in after years of trying. Another thing is that there is little relation between the rednecks and the Aryan Brotherhood in the US; the two can quite often be found at each others' throats.
While I agree with you that the ethnic cleansing during WW2 is of an unprecedented scale, and of one that has not been seen since, this is to a great extent influenced by circumstances. Certainly, had Zyklon B and automatic weapons been available, the Crusades would have given the Holocaust a good run for its money. Also, the 200-year-old war between the Serbs and Croats (the current situation is a continuation after a brief interruption under Communist rule) was much more savage than what the Nazis did. After WW2, such mass murder has not taken place by virtue of the fact that the rest of the world scrutinises such things more closely now. Keep in mind that the full extent of the Holocaust was not known to many Germans, much less the rest of the world, until after the war.
Finally, I cannot but note with no little sense of irony that your line of argument has one particularly disturbing implication: that the Nazis were right. -
a whole nation of aggre-sapiens with XYY gene,mmmmm i would hardly think so
-
To CX and Gedanken
It is amazing how a simple topic can draw out the best from both of you, and I am grateful for both your contribution in so much information in this area of genetics and eugenics.
The purpose of my raising this area of genetic concern, is not so much of identifying with the Nazi belief, but to raise as a possible alarm in the Past and Present Character of the Japanese, in their present effort to rearm and remobilize their supposedly Self-Defense Force.
In my continued search for information on the subject of Genetics, I noticed that there were parallel studies on Eugenics as well, and with conclusions on the effects of genetics on race, and with different voices leveled at such conclusions.
Be as it may, we do find in any societies the elements of the intelligent, the mundane, the hyperactive, the creative, and the criminal – (with more classification or group types, if these few do not cover the remaining).
Since the first identification of such different elements in society, many psychologists, psychiatrists, biotechnologists, and the medical scientists have all tried to understand these critical ‘make-up’ – which has led to the conclusions that genetics are common regardless of race, but that tweaks of genetic variances do create the differences that produce the different elements in any society.
There were conclusions drawn that in a closed society, or a poor one, with no access to external influences or knowledge (scientific or otherwise), and in which development of its societal knowledge, experiences, and practices remain static, there will be little development in the progress of the peoples from that society. Leading itself to its own limited creative progress and slow degradation.
While I can accept it is “human nature” (genetic reaction? ) to identify oneself to be “us” and “them”, and in the process make the comparisons as expounded so well by Gedanken, it does not explain away the acceptance of the criminal behavior from the conscience of the same human being – that is supposed to have the same genetic conscience common to all regardless of race.
In the “Stanley Milgram’s experiment” given by Gedanken, I am not sure if the experiment portrayed correctly the violent nature of man – cutting across all races, or if it more accurately confirm the intended task of determining how extreme the “Teacher” is prepared to go when urged on and authorized to do so.
Under such circumstances, anyone given a task will rightly proceed on, especially when the “Teacher” has no knowledge as to the significance of what 400 volts can do – did the report mentioned if such knowledge was made clearly known?
In the study of genetics, some researches have concluded that different social groups tend to attract those with similar characteristic in mental and/or physical attributes – or as the proverb goes: “Birds of a feather, flocks together”.
In this day and age, it is surprising that one should find the resurgence of racist groups such as the “Skinheads” in Germany, UK, and the equivalent “Red Necks” in the USA – with some of these groups openly admiring neo-Nazism.
Although they may not fraternize together, the fact that the resurgence of such parochial groups should return and attract the same age group in different societies separated by geography can be quite telling from the genetic point of view.
These parochial groups share a common streak of criminal admiration of violence, racism, and the adoration of neo-Nazism.
They are all Whites, all Caucasians.
They may come from different racial stock but as was mentioned previously, some genetic characteristics cut across race.
Is this “genetic tweak” at work?
In Japan, the “Hard Line Nationalists” lurks in the shadows of political corridors, and could well be the powerhouses that determine the rise and fall of political figures.
These “Hard Line Nationalists” could well be some of the Japanese WW-2 personalities that were given leniency by the US Administrators – ( as mentioned by CX ); and are probably the instigators that prevent Japan from ever making an apology to Asia, nor accept responsibilities for all the atrocities committed in Asia.
Should we not be wary then of a resurgence of the “genetic tweaks” in Japan, in the light of its continued denial to the historical events of WW-2, and its efforts to expand the role of its Self-Defense Force, and now with its attempt to own its first two Aircraft Carriers ? -
For further read to the above post, please take a look into the following sites:
Genetics – (The Flow) : Review Lynn’s Eugenics
http://darwin.psy.fsu.edu/pipermail/genetics/2001-November/001471.html
Race and Genetics
http://www.celluloid-wisdom.com/pw/archives/001517.html
Race and Genetics – Trinicentre.com
http://www.trinicenter.com/sciencenews/raceandgenetics.htm
Genetics, Personality, and Race – (American Renaissance)
http://www.commonsenseclub.com/persony.html
Modem Genetics is Eugenics
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/chap16.html -
Originally posted by Atobe:
what rubbish! honestly Atobe, i expected a more intelligent statement than THAT from you!
.... In this day and age, it is surprising that one should find the resurgence of racist groups such as the “Skinheads” in Germany, UK, and the equivalent “Red Necks” in the USA – with some of these groups openly admiring neo-Nazism.
Although they may not fraternize together, the fact that the resurgence of such parochial groups should return and attract the same age group in different societies separated by geography can be quite telling from the genetic point of view.
These parochial groups share a common streak of criminal admiration of violence, racism, and the adoration of neo-Nazism.
They are all Whites, all Caucasians.
how's this then: all brown pple are lazy and stupid, all yellow pple are money grubbing and warlike, all black pple smell bad and have bad manners ah... but genes cut across geographic boundaries too... and there are sometimes cross-breeding... so there are in-between half-breeds as well... yellow pple who are lazy but money grubbing, brown pple who may have bad manners as well and black pple who are money grubbing AND smell bad.
i know your argument did not intend to take THIS extreme, but thats exactly what it implies! the assumptions made are absurd!
u might as well measure everyone's head to determine their I.Q...
u are straying across the line of the hard sciences which characterises modern genetics, the same discipline which values empirical evidence backed by scientific experiments, into the area of pseudo-sciences, where dubious claims are dressed up with supposedly and skewed scientific findings to legitimise them.[size=smalll]They may come from different racial stock but as was mentioned previously, some genetic characteristics cut across race.
we don't know for sure how it works, or if it does at all. until we do... until we do...
Is this “genetic tweak” at work?[/size]
[quote]In Japan, the “Hard Line Nationalists” lurks in the shadows of political corridors, and could well be the powerhouses that determine the rise and fall of political figures.
These “Hard Line Nationalists” could well be some of the Japanese WW-2 personalities that were given leniency by the US Administrators – ( as mentioned by CX ); and are probably the instigators that prevent Japan from ever making an apology to Asia, nor accept responsibilities for all the atrocities committed in Asia.[/quote]
that's a matter of politics and interests, not genes. do u have any idea how much money they may have to pay in reparations if they came up with a full, unreserved apology?
shallow as it may sound, i think it makes more sense than the "recalcitrant gene" theory...
[quote]Should we not be wary then of a resurgence of the “genetic tweaks” in Japan, in the light of its continued denial to the historical events of WW-2, and its efforts to expand the role of its Self-Defense Force, and now with its attempt to own its first two Aircraft Carriers ?[/quote]
i say "it depends" ... isn't it hypocritical of the world to accept (and in fact crave) Japanese economic aid and investments while refusing to entertain the possibility that Japan will want to behave like a normal sovereign country eventually: with a role to play, the muscles to play them and interests to safeguard?
besides, given the current World Order, Japan can no longer get away with aggressive expansionism. name me one place where Japan can conquer with relative ease and without repercussions?
i don't even want to continue the conversation about genes anymore. its not helpful in understanding the situation at all... what we have before us, is a political situation, not a hare-brained genetic one we can barely substantiate. -
No I seriously think attempting to link behaviourial traits with genetics is at best a very weak link. I believe it is more of a question of nurture then nature in this case.
Basically, if whites are supposed to be racist and nazis, then I suppose those of them who are decidedly anti-racist are then considered abnormal? What is then "normal" for their race. Can it be said that Singaporeans are genetically kiasu? Or prehaps there are genes that determine singlish useage? Nonsense. If there is ont thing that is clear, the behaviour of humans are more far more distinct from their genes then the other less intelligent animals.
And besides, there is actually no definable scientific concept in the first place for race. Not by genetics not by traits. The truth of the matter is that in reality, there is no scientific evidence for race. All humans are members of one race, and that is Homo sapiens sapiens.
I believe the reason why some dudes tend to be racist or do whatever they do is more of a result of cultural upbringing. Some whites people tend towards the idea of racial superiority simply because their culture has long been steeped in xenophobia and harking back to the "good old days" where they were the "masters". In any natural context, it's not any stretch of the imagination, given redneck ignorance of other cultures and their knowledge of how the white man was supposedly dominant in the past, that they will form the conclusion that they are the master race, and hence on and so forth.
Basically, I have to say this. No, there is no such thing as genetics of racism or other behavioural traits. Unlike innate behaviour, such complex behaviour is learned. While genes can control the abilities to make these kinds of patterns possible, they are unable to create the patterns themselves.
Hence, to say things like racism is innate to genetics, is to say that a baby will be able to learn concepts like language and maths simply by growing up, and not having those supjects thought to them by their caregivers. Basically while genes can make the vocal chords and the large brain to make these things possible for the baby to acomplish, it cannot do so unless somebody put those concepts in there. Racism is not innate, it is an unfortunate collection of misconceptions, xenophobia and a lofty sense of self all rolled up into one. Who put it there, genetics?
No, it is the culture. -
Atobe, it is a matter of professional interest for me. I am a psychologist, and one of the projects that I am working on at the moment is the study of genetics in relation to drug addictions and mental illnesses. That said, I also always enjoy good debates!
As for your question about the Milgram experiments, the "teachers" and "learners" were seperated by a piece of frosted glass, so that the "teachers" could see the effects of the electric shocks.
The experiments were ultimately banned because of the distressing effects they had on the subjects. In an excerpt (although I am not sure if this was from the original study):
"I observed a mature and initially poised businessman enter the laboratory smiling and confident. Within 20 minutes he was reduced to a twitching, stuttering wreck, who was rapidly approaching nervous collapse. He constantly pulled on his ear lobe, and twisted his hands. At one point he pushed his fist into his forehead and muttered "Oh God, lets stop it". And yet he continued to respond to every word of the experimenter, and obeyed to the end.".
In answer to your question, yes, they knew the effects of a 400-volt electric shock, yes, they were distressed about it and yes, they carried on anyway.
If you manage to find a copy, read Dave Grossman's book "On Killing". LTC (ret.) Grossman is an ex-Ranger and a psychologist, and his book describes how soldiers have been made much more efficient at killing over the course of the twentieth century. It reinforces the point that the nature of the basic material at the start has little influence of the result - the characters are molded by environmental influences.
That is quite a mixed bag of references that you provided in your post. I read the first article with a sense of horror - it was a who's who of the villains of scientific research. Of course, then I realised that it came from American Renaissance, and with such a name, it was obviously a white supremacist publication. I looked up their website, and lo and behold, it was a thinly-disguised propaganda sheet for the Ku Klux Klan.
The third article strikes me as being the best - it describes how some ideas have been pushed out to the public without having first been fully tested, and how misguided they have turned out to be. As CX has quite rightly pointed out, many of these studies make propositions based upon the thinnest scientific evidence. Unfortunately, it is way too easy to convince a layman of a point by laying the jargon on by the bucketful. The figures, if they can produce any in the first place, have never been able to support their claims, but it does usually take someone with research training to poke holes in their stories.
Another key point of that third article is, as SingaporeTyrannosaur
pointed out, genetics distinguishes between individials and not races. Also, another good point by ST is that complex responses are much less likely to be determined by genetic factors than are simple reactions. For something as complex as a racist mentality (which ironically is mostly held by simpletons), it is a matter of education rather than instinct.
Once you have your finger on the pulse of what makes the people tick, it is not really all that difficult to manipulate a crowd. Hitler identified the bruised German pride at the end of WW1, as well as their desperate economic circumstances in the late 20's and early 30's. he gave them someone to blame and a cure-all solution for it, and they ate it right up because desperate people need something to cling to. German culture is based upon order and uniformity, and he pushed that button hard by presenting Jews and other races as aberrations. For all of his madness, Hitler had a very good understanding of German culture and psychology, and that was what he used to manipulate the country. -
Basically as I have said, I do not buy the idea at all that the Japanese will be militaristic killers because of their genes. However I must then again state that if they as a people are not aware of the mistakes of their predecessors, they are not being very smart as they will end up repeating them.
Don't buy the idea of genes=behaviour, not unless you also want to accept the idea that the white people is by birth pure and noble and all other races are defects. Which is basically their premise for pushing for a life idealogy based on what you were born with, and not what you really can be. -
"Grand Challenge III-2 Understand the relationships between genomics, race and ethnicity, and the consequences of uncovering these relationships.
Race is a largely non-biological concept confounded by misunderstanding and a long history of prejudice. The relationship of genomics to the concepts of race and ethnicity has to be considered within complex historical and social contexts.
Most variation in the genome is shared between all populations, but certain alleles are more frequent in some populations than in others, largely as a result of history and geography. Use of genetic data to define racial groups, or of racial categories to classify biological traits, is prone to misinterpretation. To minimize such misinterpretation, the biological and sociocultural factors that interrelate genetics with constructs of race and ethnicity need to be better understood and communicated within the next few years.
This will require research on how different individuals and cultures conceive of race, ethnicity, group identity and self-identity, and what role they believe genes or other biological factors have. It will also require a critical examination of how the scientific community understands and uses these concepts in designing research and presenting findings, and of how the media report these. Also necessary is widespread education about the biological meaning and limitations of research findings in this area (Box 6), and the formulation and adoption of public-policy options that protect against genomics-based discrimination or maltreatment (see Grand Challenge III-1)."
http://www.genome.gov/11007524
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Research done on genes is nowhere near conclusive, thus to claim that genes does not effect behaviour could be premature but the claim that genetic material dictates the behaviour of whole racial stocks could be even further farfetched at this point in time. Anyway Atobe, with your mention of neo-nazis you are bringing attention to a particular minority within a society and can hardly be conclusive evidence to be presented as proof for the "warlikeness", and the fact that or neonazis look similiar comes from the fact that it was designed to appeal to such people not only becuase of who they are but who they are suppose to prejudice against, the very precepts of neonazism already excluds a whole lot of people just because of their skin colour of ethinicity.
Perhaps up to now, perhaps only the XYY gene provides some linkage between behaviour and genetic material where 1 in 1000 males have the XYY gene and 4% of inmates in britain possess the gene. This data could proof some correlation but is in no way a major contributor to the probability that you could become a criminal.
Fact is, Genome research is at a point where it cannot even provide much useful data for a proper definhative discourse but could only aid in speculation(lets not even start to mention eugenics) thus it is far too early to take so many steps ahead and presume that there is definate relations between the content of a nations genetic stock and it ability to affect national and societal conscious and behaviour.
My 2 cents