Ex Flying FIsh: HMS Sea Harrier vs RMAF Mig-29
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comeon..... the fulcrum was supposed to be de creme of le creme according to RMAF or russian source... even some of the western source placed them high above the clouds in performance...
for fulcrum to win against a harrier should be an expected outcome in view of the difference in power, manouverbility, technology and design...
for the harrier to win the fulcrum every time in BVR and also in WVR more then once... is gonna make alot of malaysian ministers and their PM drop their jaws clean off their maxilla!!
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Not so. There was an exercise where British Link-16 equipped Sea Harriers squared off against Eagles. The Eagles got chewed up in BVR combat. The Blue Vixen radar in the Sea Harriers is actually more capable than the APG-63s. It is IIRC, the first radar designed to make full use of the AMRAAM, and the ECR-90 CAPTOR radar is in fact based on the Blue Vixen. Too bad the Sea Harriers are gonna be retired....
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if that darn radar is so damn good... we should have it on the falcons....
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wait till we get Typhoon (IF) lohOriginally posted by tripwire:if that darn radar is so damn good... we should have it on the falcons.... 
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lol maybe the Migs are armed with swords and the Harriers with Sniper guns.
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Today fighter rely greatly on technoloy of weapons, mainly the avionics & missiles, both BVR & WVR, the A/C just the vehicle.
I remeber a report on the German Mig29 square off with the Nato A/C, the Nato usually beat the MIG29 becos of better BVR missiles but lose out in WVR encounter becos of the Mig29 HMS & bigger off boresight WVR missiles as compare with Nato A/C.
Therefore RSAF F-16 & F5 could easily beats the RMAF Mig29 & Bug maybe the SU30 becos RSAF have the world best BVR & WVR missiles namely the AMRRAM & the Python4 missiles.
When we get our new A/C, hopefully the Typhoon, RMAF better hide all their A/C in underground bunker otherwise they will be blew off from the sky one by one if they ever go to war with us. -
The Harrier is an amazing little dogfighter, and has scored notable sucesses against supposedly superior supersonic, air superiority fighters. In the Falklands, the Harriers chewed up the Argentine airforce's Mirages, Skyhawks and what not. Notable was a Mirage's lack of sucess with dealing with the slow, subsonic Harrier.
I dunno if the brits used VIFFing, but that has always been a very big advantage of the Harrier. Most dogfights take place at subsonic speeds, where manuverability and low speed handeling is an king rather then speed and trust. While the poor Mat pilot is pulling gees trying to get his overpowered plane around, all the brit has to do is to clip his plane into a VIFF manuver and point it at the Mig with far less cost in time and effort. No gusses who actually has the real advantage there.
In any case, a Mig 29 is a poor trade for a Harrier. That's multimillion dollar, super high preforming aircraft was supposed to be able to beat the relatively cheap by comparism, slow mud mover all the time round.
I suspect, given the same, large boresight missiles used by the Mig, the Harrier would win virtually everytime in a WVR engagement. Prehaps the Harrier's main defiency is it's lack of juice to evade missiles, but then again, most modern air superiority fighters also only stand a marginal chance of dodging missiles once they are fired at them. The idea is to get the first shot off.
Maybe there's still some magic left in that old british ingeunity... -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
No. It's official..No Viffing during Falkland campiagn. It was hyped up by British media then.
dunno if the brits used VIFFing
Fact is the Brit entered the war with very marginal advantage over the Argintines with only 20+ Harriers & zero Awacs. That was why Exocet was the most feared by the British fleet. US's greenlight to give the Brits their brandnew Aim-9L also contributed to better KP.
Harrier's main advantage that time was her logistic flexibility which was demonstrated by flying off a civilian container during its long voyage south.
Total 6 Harriers were lost by SAM and accidents. -
actually ECR90 though better than mig29 radar and blue vixen isnt exactly the state of the art now... its a old-tech mechanical antenna with limited modes, flexibility and multi target tracking inferior to Rafale's passive phased array RBE2 and US APG63v2, 77, 79 and 80 active phased arrays used on F15K, F22, super hornet and F16E/F/blk60 respectively... even the Su30mk's passive array is better.
in short typhoon/ECR90 is the lousiest radar of the 6 planes RSAF is considering. BAE are buiding a active array for typhoon but it wont be out for abt 10 yrs.
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/sensors.html -
I think maybe its because the harrier is no more in production!Originally posted by IAF:This jump jet has never cease to amaze me. The fact that RSAF never considered the harrier never cease to amaze me even more!
correct me if I'm wrong. -
Originally posted by IAF:
I believe that is because of it's limited usage.For one the harrier has a very low take off weight.meaning it can hardly carry alot of weapons up.2 AGM-64's and 4 Aim-9's would max out it's carry weight!! 4 Aim-9's 2 Aim-120's and 1 100gallon fuel tank would max it's AA load out.Not really much weapons.The other short fall is it's rather limited range.But the harrier does have it's uses.....as demostrated.
This jump jet has never cease to amaze me. The fact that RSAF never considered the harrier never cease to amaze me even more! -
I agree with what you said above.Originally posted by |-|05|:I believe that is because of it's limited usage.For one the harrier has a very low take off weight.meaning it can hardly carry alot of weapons up.2 AGM-64's and 4 Aim-9's would max out it's carry weight!! 4 Aim-9's 2 Aim-120's and 1 100gallon fuel tank would max it's AA load out.Not really much weapons.The other short fall is it's rather limited range.But the harrier does have it's uses.....as demostrated.
The reason for its short-range and limited payload is because it is originally designed as a RAF close support aircraft. It will carry light Air-to-Ground ordance. And because of its VSTOL capability, it is supposed to be deployed very very close to the frontline maybe off the normal airfield, so that its short-range doesn't matter. Somehow the Brits think that having a short-legged aircraft that can carry a light load is better than having a more capable aircraft deployed far away. That was/is their doctrine. But as shown in the Falklands, the Harrier was very vulnerable to ground fire.
The Blue Vixen is really a very old design. It was first put into the RN Harrier to give it a air-intercept capability (the original RAF Harriers are for ground-attack).
One comment on VIFFing. It is actually sucidal to VIFF. the aircraft will lose all its forward speed and will need time to accelerate back to combat speed. In the meantime it is vulnerable to attack, litterally sitting duck.
Air combat need not be a one-vs-one kind of fight. Even if one opponent over-shoot you (after VIFFing) there could be another enemy waiting to prounce on you while you are floating in mid-air.
As for classic movements like VIFFing, vertical take-off and landing and the Russian "Cobra", all these manuvers are done in an air-show setting. The Harrier "cannot" take-off with a full bombload, that is why they need a ski-jump on the carrier. The Harrier in the probably only have half a fuel load.
Same as Cobra etc. -
Nope, it is not sucidal to VIFF, as a matter of fact, it is extremely useful in a turning contest. Esp. in getting extremely high AOA shots, increasing rate of turn and make shot-cut manuvers impossible for conventional aircraft.
VIFFing has never been used in a combat encounter, and its potential has never been fully realized and utilized. For years it remained a curiosity. The real reason VIFFing has never really been used in combat is more because I believe the Harrier never really got into a situtation where it had to use it, coupled with the general incompetence of their enemy plus their own aversion to unconventional flying in a combat situtation.
However, expermental dogfights held by the US Marines a few years back after the aquired the AV-8B to discover the usefulness of VIFFing in air to air engagements. They were pitted against Navy F-14s in close quarter dogfights and used VIFFing manuvers to jockey for advantage. The AV-8Bs won 23 of 25 engagements. Not bad for a mud mover.
VIFFing is hardly sucidal, if anything should its real potential be realized, actually life saving. -
may i ask....what is VIFFing??
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Viffing (vectoring in forward flight), a form of advanced combat manoeuvre developed by V/STOL pilots, is achieved by vectoring the nozzles at high speed for sudden deceleration and very tight turns.Originally posted by |-|05|:may i ask....what is VIFFing??
Source : http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fa2/ -
Ahh ok....but for the harrier wont it be a 1 dimensional VIFF that wont have much effect to it's AoA unlike the F-22 and planes with 2 or even 3 dimensional VIFF???I mean apart from sudden decceleration i doubt it does much since the harrier no plane can afford to lose too much forward speed during combatOriginally posted by wombat:Viffing (vectoring in forward flight), a form of advanced combat manoeuvre developed by V/STOL pilots, is achieved by vectoring the nozzles at high speed for sudden deceleration and very tight turns.
Source : http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fa2/ -
I believe Singapore at one time (sometime in the 80s) was entertaining the idea of getting Harriers. However, Harriers was considered too difficult to fly and at that time, too many accidents cause this idea to be seriously considered. Furthermore, the AV-8B and Harrier 2 used today was not widely available then, so AV-8A was deemed too expensive as the A-4 replacement. The Skyhawks then went and got a new life with a new engine and avionics to boot.
Well, when and if RSAF obtain F-35, it will not be inconceivable to get some the VTOL version as well. Getting say a sqn of VTOL F35 and 2 sqns of CTOL (land based version) will be more palatable as there will be common parts (important for logistic pov) and infrastructure (maintenance and cost benefits) between the 2 different versions.
I also read that F35 might be considered as one of the possibility for the NGF program, huh, is RSAF going to be 1 of the first to adopt a new generation and unproven fighter? Anyway, I hope Rafale will win and Singapore reap the many technology benefits. Of course, that also means Singapore will have to pay a hefy financial cost to this choice. My guess is the Block 60 Viper or the F15 will come through as the winner. No points for guessing why. -
errr..i think ur in the wrong thread..tis thread is abt Harrier vs Mig29..not guessing wat plane will RSAF getOriginally posted by Joe Black:I also read that F35 might be considered as one of the possibility for the NGF program, huh, is RSAF going to be 1 of the first to adopt a new generation and unproven fighter? Anyway, I hope Rafale will win and Singapore reap the many technology benefits. Of course, that also means Singapore will have to pay a hefy financial cost to this choice. My guess is the Block 60 Viper or the F15 will come through as the winner. No points for guessing why.
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Happy RSAF Open House Day all!
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No experienced fighter pilot would slow or lose speed of their aircraft in mk I eyeball dogfight unless he is extremely desperate to shake off the enemy aicraft behind him before his brain is being gun off.
VIFFing is a powerful deterence to the adversary not to get too close to a harrier when u are fighting one. You may get chewed by them if u are not careful. Remember, they are mounted with some cool cannons which is very very effective when they applied VIFF on the their attacker!
I don't think if the harriers were to apply same tactics to the same F14 crew, they would get the same results today!
On the other hand, most modern engagements do not get this close any more, and normally your enemy would try to cripple u when u can't see them under normal ROE. So jocks today would try to keep a good distance from their targets and knocking them outta sky before they go into furball.
(Same for Flanker with their fanciful "cobra". Having two of the most powerful engines mounted on them, all they need is to fight u high speed vertical fight, and it is already highly lethal!)
my 2 centsOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Nope, it is not sucidal to VIFF, as a matter of fact, it is extremely useful in a turning contest. Esp. in getting extremely high AOA shots, increasing rate of turn and make shot-cut manuvers impossible for conventional aircraft.
VIFFing has never been used in a combat encounter, and its potential has never been fully realized and utilized. For years it remained a curiosity. The real reason VIFFing has never really been used in combat is more because I believe the Harrier never really got into a situtation where it had to use it, coupled with the general incompetence of their enemy plus their own aversion to unconventional flying in a combat situtation.
However, expermental dogfights held by the US Marines a few years back after the aquired the AV-8B to discover the usefulness of VIFFing in air to air engagements. They were pitted against Navy F-14s in close quarter dogfights and used VIFFing manuvers to jockey for advantage. The AV-8Bs won 23 of 25 engagements. Not bad for a mud mover.
VIFFing is hardly sucidal, if anything should its real potential be realized, actually life saving. -
I don't believe Viffing is be used in such a way. To make full use of viffing, u don't vector ALL your forward airspeed to slow down. But instead, use an extra bit of thrust down the right direction to achieve a tighter turn, w/o the extra G's.
One thing though, will the harrier stall due to high AOA? Cos, if it can withstand that, it extra thrust down the right direction can actually help to decrease the AOA while still being able to tighten the turn. -
VIFFing is great for making abrupt changes in direction. I dunno why so many here have the misconception that Harrier pilots would use it to slow their plane down dramatically to make the bogey overshoot, which I do not think is any standard VIFF manuver they learn.
VIFFing as I have said, it great for cutting corners in a turning fight, where the Harrier does not have to go through all the energy sapping manuvers of his high energy opponent in order to get his plane around the right way. This is of course very useful in a turning fight because the AV-8B can make turns with a lot less time and gees normal air superiority fighters have to strain through. -
I honestly do not see how directing your trust downwards will help with you turning......unless you're doing negative gee turns then alright.But the harrier is not the F22 or even that experimental flanker with 2D trust vectoring but only has a 1D vectoring....and that is downwards!I admit though VIFFing is an extremely good thing to have and i'm not sure how the Harrier pilots are trained on it.From what i can guess other then allowing them better handling at lower speeds and making enemy planes overshoot i really do not see how they can benifit.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:VIFFing is great for making abrupt changes in direction. I dunno why so many here have the misconception that Harrier pilots would use it to slow their plane down dramatically to make the bogey overshoot, which I do not think is any standard VIFF manuver they learn.
VIFFing as I have said, it great for cutting corners in a turning fight, where the Harrier does not have to go through all the energy sapping manuvers of his high energy opponent in order to get his plane around the right way. This is of course very useful in a turning fight because the AV-8B can make turns with a lot less time and gees normal air superiority fighters have to strain through.
And i believe trust vector turning does put more stress on the airframe.Not to sure about all this though.Havent really read up on this topic and i'm just making guesses from the stuff i learn abt in school.If you have any nice reports or even books on VIFFing in a harrier could you provide it for me to go check it out??That would be nice
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The harrier pilot in control can do various angles of thrust vector from full downwards vectoring to what u mentioned selective angle of vectoring.
When he do a quick and full downward vectoring, he would suddenly have a very quick "deccelaration" of his airspeed from 280 to 320 knots to almost as slow as 50 to 70 knots, and at the same time he would get a lot of height (ballooning in his own plane altitude), this is extremely great for the harrier if he has a close enemy fighter at six. The enemy have no choice and to prevent a overshoot at 350 to 400 knots (eg F16 vipers), the viper pilot would do a reverse to separate more distance from the harrier. which now the harrier pilot would yaw and point his nose against the separating enemy pilot. (Harrier is very good at pointing nose to whatever direction they want when they are at low speed). This is also probably the time the Harrier pilot would try to gun or aim9 the Viper. If the viper jock is not experienced, he would be trying to go extreme G turning at this timing to get back his advantage over the harrier, and he would be doing full burner to point his nose against the turning harrier, which make it a perfcet target for the heat seekers...
If the pilot choose to use only selective angle of Viff, what u mentioned is right and he is just making it tighten turns for the enemy. And for the fighter behind, the harrier can still be defected since the enemy pilot can anticipate his turns with various tactics, like Hi-yoyo or scissors to counter tighter turns.
I assumed harrier can control better AOA since they do not really depend on their wings, but rather the huge RR engine they have. That is why they can point their nose anywhere they want!
Harrier jocks know that fighter CAPs don't work alone, and normally in pairs. So we come back to point one, when a harrier is being engaged by enemy aircraft, they know that they are not fighting aginst one platform, they have no reason to slow down at all unless when they are checkmated.
Hope this is not too longwinded!
TweekerOriginally posted by Shotgun:I don't believe Viffing is be used in such a way. To make full use of viffing, u don't vector ALL your forward airspeed to slow down. But instead, use an extra bit of thrust down the right direction to achieve a tighter turn, w/o the extra G's.
One thing though, will the harrier stall due to high AOA? Cos, if it can withstand that, it extra thrust down the right direction can actually help to decrease the AOA while still being able to tighten the turn. -
Could you explain how he could get a tighter turn radii??Originally posted by Tweeker:The harrier pilot in control can do various angles of thrust vector from full downwards vectoring to what u mentioned selective angle of vectoring.
When he do a quick and full downward vectoring, he would suddenly have a very quick "deccelaration" of his airspeed from 280 to 320 knots to almost as slow as 50 to 70 knots, and at the same time he would get a lot of height (ballooning in his own plane altitude), this is extremely great for the harrier if he has a close enemy fighter at six. The enemy have no choice and to prevent a overshoot at 350 to 400 knots (eg F16 vipers), the viper pilot would do a reverse to separate more distance from the harrier. which now the harrier pilot would yaw and point his nose against the separating enemy pilot. (Harrier is very good at pointing nose to whatever direction they want when they are at low speed). This is also probably the time the Harrier pilot would try to gun or aim9 the Viper. If the viper jock is not experienced, he would be trying to go extreme G turning at this timing to get back his advantage over the harrier, and he would be doing full burner to point his nose against the turning harrier, which make it a perfcet target for the heat seekers...
If the pilot choose to use only selective angle of Viff, what u mentioned is right and he is just making it tighten turns for the enemy. And for the fighter behind, the harrier can still be defected since the enemy pilot can anticipate his turns with various tactics, like Hi-yoyo or scissors to counter tighter turns.
I assumed harrier can control better AOA since they do not really depend on their wings, but rather the huge RR engine they have. That is why they can point their nose anywhere they want!
Harrier jocks know that fighter CAPs don't work alone, and normally in pairs. So we come back to point one, when a harrier is being engaged by enemy aircraft, they know that they are not fighting aginst one platform, they have no reason to slow down at all unless when they are checkmated.
Hope this is not too longwinded!
Tweeker
Anyway in WVR the F-16 will be too close to do much when the harrier does suddenly take a tight slow turn.....so it'd be hard for him to anticipate though still possible.Your explaination aint long.... it's ok..