unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
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Great - now he's decided to throw his toys out of the pram.
In any case, what is all of this nonsense about walking the walk anyway? As far as I can tell, 35MM is a REMF. Have we got another armchair Rambo on our hands? Sure as hell he seems to be taking safety a lot more lightly than those of us who have been there. -
According to the lesson plan, the trainees were only to be doused with water with the intent of showering them. The lesson plan specifically prohibits physical contact and manhandling of trainees, and states categorically that instructors should never force water treatment into the body. Submerging the head of a trainee into water was not authorized.
ER...HOW DO YOU EXECUTE "DOUSED WITH WATER WITHE THE INTENT OF SHOWERING THEM?" PERHAPS HOSE THEM A BIT FROM A FIRE HYDRANT? ASK ALL TO FALL IN UNDER A BIG PAIL OF WATER? STAND UNDER THE RAIN? ALSO, DOESNT DOUSING SOMEONE WITH WATER EQUATES FORCING WATER TREATMENT INTO THE BODY?
WOULD HELP IF THE PERSON WHO IS WRITING ALL THESE AMBIGUOUS LESSON PLANS GIVEN SOME EXAMPLES BECAUSE WE DONT WANT THE INSTRUCTORS TO BECOME TOO CREATIVE WHEN WE KNOW THAT SINGAPOREANS IN GENERAL ARE NOT VERY SOUND IN THIS AREA OF THOUGHT. -
NAIVE is a very strong word..ive seen with my own eyes..one chao keng ass got sent to become a clerk ...8 to 5 job...n mind u he kena 8 to 5 even his before his new posting start..Originally posted by gary1910:quote:
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Originally posted by wuming78:
ppl are advised to seek MP as last resort. and they wont get charged for seeking MP. anyway i think even at tt time, if they realli went to see MP they wont get charged. the MP wil be alerted the first time. if the MP finds out the person got charged for seeing him wat wil he do?
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Originally posted by NathanG5:
alot of backside gona be fried...if that NSF kena charge..
there is nothing wrong with seeing the MP...at most u kena abit of harsh words while you are back in camp..
chain of command is break frequently..even in the senior command..
so there shld not be any double standard..
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I think u guys a bit naive, Mindef/SAF will not charge the soldier straight away after they hv seen their MP...
There r many ways that thay could make your life miserable in yr remaining NS time, for example post you out to a tougher unit, send you for tough courses etc All within their rights to do so , they could also have your CO & RSM to mark you so that every single violation you make will certainly be extra duties and even been charged if they r serious "violation". eg.every weapon inspection will yield you extra, every exercise you will get to do sentry, more standby bed ,more weapon inspection etc
They could also tekan to whole coy becos of u example more standby, more semura during exercise becos they said you r the cause so that the whole coy will hate you!!!
Therefore think twice b4 doing any stupid like complaining to the MP unless you have a very strong case, becos a pissed off SAF could & would do the thing stated above & even your MP also Lan Lan.
stop putting fear into young recruit hearts..a MP letters is a very powerful one...
in this case i hate this chao keng ass..cos he got no valid reason to see a mp..but we just boh chup him..we just go on with our life, duty n training...y must we make our life more miserable just to make him suffer..our life already bad enough..
that chao keng ass got no strong case..he make up the case himself...directing n acting all by himself...one hell of a Oscar Award Winner.. -
He is obviously under the misconception that training does not produce real soldiers unless it kills, maims, drowns, or disables a noticable percentage of them. Apparently he is unable to seperate the concept of tough training from dangerous, irresponsible and ultimately sensless training.
Therefore, it is not surprising that he thinks that instructors must be protected from wrongdoing, and be able to do as they deem fit. On the other hand, trainees should shut up and realize that they have no rights. What this implies in the end that irresponsible and sadastic instructors with more mind to torture then train can be allowed to run amok in the army with no checks and measures because this is what is needed for a tough army.
Sun Zhu stated that a commander must also have a balance of morals along with his hardness, or else it's just a recipe for disaster, nobody will really fight for you if all you want them to risk life and limb for you, but in the end show no regard for their wellfare or rights?
As I stated and will contuine to state, training can be tough but at the same time made as safe as possible. And training that drowns one person and seriously injures six others is not something to be condoned!
If 35MM Gunner can pull his head out of the sand and stop for a moment from broadcasting his instructors right rethoric, he would see the immediate and apparent logic that has been before him all this while.
If not, maybe he should run through a taste of his own dream military which is a cold hearted insitution that is more determined to create mindless, dehumanized killing machines via "walking the walk" with training no different from actual combat.
Hey maybe our medics should get to treat some real combat wounds as well? Our soldiers can also get a chance to taste and learn how to survive getting shot. Maybe next time in war games we can use real ammo? Just make sure that only the arms and legs are the only locations that are allowed to be shot at and if anyone died from getting shot, it is an acceptable statistic to create a tough army.
Wu liao, what more illogical absurdities can 35MM Gunner come up with? -
i get you now Gedanken...
i have 2 books about Special Forces..interesting stuff i found in there..
SF world wide conduct their own SERE course...it wrote this word with open n close bracket "good practice"..the basic building block of SF..
a man with a rifle is much dangerous then one which doesnt have..
a man trained to use a rifle is much deadly then one who dont train at all....a dead man have no use at all...
simple fact -
Dousing and submerging are two entirely different things. Nothing ambiguous about that at all, and no, it does not equate forcing water in. You are attempting to creatively interpret a straightforward directive, which is how this whole mess got started in the first place.Originally posted by Xprobe:According to the lesson plan, the trainees were only to be doused with water with the intent of showering them. The lesson plan specifically prohibits physical contact and manhandling of trainees, and states categorically that instructors should never force water treatment into the body. Submerging the head of a trainee into water was not authorized.
ER...HOW DO YOU EXECUTE "DOUSED WITH WATER WITHE THE INTENT OF SHOWERING THEM?" PERHAPS HOSE THEM A BIT FROM A FIRE HYDRANT? ASK ALL TO FALL IN UNDER A BIG PAIL OF WATER? STAND UNDER THE RAIN? ALSO, DOESNT DOUSING SOMEONE WITH WATER EQUATES FORCING WATER TREATMENT INTO THE BODY?
WOULD HELP IF THE PERSON WHO IS WRITING ALL THESE AMBIGUOUS LESSON PLANS GIVEN SOME EXAMPLES BECAUSE WE DONT WANT THE INSTRUCTORS TO BECOME TOO CREATIVE WHEN WE KNOW THAT SINGAPOREANS IN GENERAL ARE NOT VERY SOUND IN THIS AREA OF THOUGHT. -
Point taken. But how can dousing with the intent of showering be executed?Originally posted by Gedanken:Dousing and submerging are two entirely different things. Nothing ambiguous about that at all, and no, it does not equate forcing water in. You are attempting to creatively interpret a straightforward directive, which is how this whole mess got started in the first place. -
There are a number of ways to do it - having a water tank that can release a flow froma few floors up is always a handy thing.
ST, what do you expect? The guy's a REMF, and it's easy enough to mouth off about how tough we have to be if you're safely perched as a Pes C2L2. In his own words, "I wud volunteer but my many attempts in signing on failed due 2 pes status ".
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.....
DIDN'T. -
[quote]Originally posted by Gedanken:
[b]There are a number of ways to do it - having a water tank that can release a flow froma few floors up is always a handy thing.
Precisely my point. To the guy who writes up the lesson plan: Use "to shower the trainees with water from an elevated container x meters above the tallest trainees' head" instead of the current language. I know from a scholastic perspective, it may be "beneath" your years of higher, sponsored or self-paid ivory-tower learning, but the masses of us need to understand what you are trying to communicate. -
And how much intellect or education does it take to understand that "Submerging the head of a trainee into water was not authorized"? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
And as for the ivory-tower learning, don't go letting the chip on your shoulder show too clearly. My two and a half years were spent as a Commando, so it's not just textbook knowledge I am using. -
"Dousing and submerging are two entirely different things"
agreed! but here's a tho't: if u were to lay a cloth over the victim's face and douse wif water, you could also cause him to die of drowning... point is SAF shld have a clear and proper trg syllabus to ensure that the trg conducted is safe.[/quote] -
Time changes, where got such good life in the olden days ,all the parents "kao peh kao bu" ,if what is practice like today then, the SAF will never be built up.Originally posted by NathanG5:NAIVE is a very strong word..ive seen with my own eyes..one chao keng ass got sent to become a clerk ...8 to 5 job...n mind u he kena 8 to 5 even his before his new posting start..
stop putting fear into young recruit hearts..a MP letters is a very powerful one...
in this case i hate this chao keng ass..cos he got no valid reason to see a mp..but we just boh chup him..we just go on with our life, duty n training...y must we make our life more miserable just to make him suffer..our life already bad enough..
that chao keng ass got no strong case..he make up the case himself...directing n acting all by himself...one hell of a Oscar Award Winner..
I heard one case of a NSF wanted to sign on as SAF Oversea Scholarship but was only given a local scholarship. He did not take it up which pissed off someone in Mindef...well you know the rest...
Another case was a LCP due to ROD(old term) in a day , he has cleared all the stores etc except the CO, RSM.On his "last day", he approached the RSM for clearance wif the rest his section.
The RSM said to him :" Congratulation XXXX, effective today you are promoted to the rank of T/CPL
Both cases are not of complain to MP but cases of SAF played wif one 2/2.5yrs. I am not saying that is not possible to get help by complaining to MP but make sure is genuine case, becos if they could disprove your claim, your MP will stand aside ,left only you & the pissed off SAF
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douse also dowse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dous)Originally posted by espanol_man:"Dousing and submerging are two entirely different things"
agreed! but here's a tho't: if u were to lay a cloth over the victim's face and douse wif water, you could also cause him to die of drowning... point is SAF shld have a clear and proper trg syllabus to ensure that the trg conducted is safe.[/quote]
v. doused, also dowsed dous·ing, dows·ing dous·es, dows·es
v. tr.
1.To plunge into liquid; immerse.
2.To wet thoroughly; drench. -
Originally posted by wuming78:
Wuming, you missed out the 3rd definition
douse also dowse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dous)
v. doused, also dowsed dous·ing, dows·ing dous·es, dows·es
v. tr.
1.To plunge into liquid; [b]immerse.
2.To wet thoroughly; drench.
[/b]
douse1 also dowse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dous)
v. doused, also dowsed dous·ing, dows·ing dous·es, dows·es
v. tr.
To plunge into liquid; immerse. See Synonyms at dip.
To wet thoroughly; drench.
To put out (a light or fire); extinguish. -
Originally posted by Xprobe:Wuming, you missed out the 3rd definition
douse1 also dowse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dous)
v. doused, also dowsed dous·ing, dows·ing dous·es, dows·es
v. tr.
To plunge into liquid; immerse. See Synonyms at dip.
To wet thoroughly; drench.
To put out (a light or fire); extinguish.
its not relevant in this context mah. -
Fact is, someone's life was "put out", "extinguished"Originally posted by wuming78: its not relevant in this context mah. -
if u derive pleasure from tat then theres nth more 2 sayOriginally posted by 35MM Gunner:i know some of u r gonna make personal attacks
tats fine
i have nth 2 say as its ur choice
its ur mouth (in tis case ur hands doin da typing) and tat can only say so much
let one's actions speak for one's self -
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the word was not used in this figurative sense. mr teo chee hean used it more to describe the action.Originally posted by Xprobe:Fact is, someone's life was "put out", "extinguished" -
precisely time have change..what u have describe is last time..the past..Originally posted by gary1910:Time changes, where got such good life in the olden days ,all the parents "kao peh kao bu" ,if what is practice like today then, the SAF will never be built up.
I heard one case of a NSF wanted to sign on as SAF Oversea Scholarship but was only given a local scholarship. He did not take it up which pissed off someone in Mindef...well you know the rest...
Another case was a LCP due to ROD(old term) in a day , he has cleared all the stores etc except the CO, RSM.On his "last day", he approached the RSM for clearance wif the rest his section.
The RSM said to him :" Congratulation XXXX, effective today you are promoted to the rank of T/CPL
Both cases are not of complain to MP but cases of SAF played wif one 2/2.5yrs. I am not saying that is not possible to get help by complaining to MP but make sure is genuine case, becos if they could disprove your claim, your MP will stand aside ,left only you & the pissed off SAF
the one abt promoting to CPL..my unit also kena...but too bad..they cant do anything to that guy..the promotion was drop..due to valid reason from his MP...his family need his support as a bread-winner..he is the only guy in the family(his father already pass away)..he went to his MP 4 time..
the worst is..when we were fighting for OFF day..that guy got most of it..
reason y he got it..he told the officers that it was his dad death anniversary...he give this excuse twice..so i guess he got 2 dad
n nobody bother to stop him..cos he is leaving the unit soon also.. -
Well spotted, wuming. In the interestes of brevity I used "doused" instead of "doused with the intent of showering", as it was in context - I am remiss.
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i stand with bear with this dude... i mean... we hv to see why that fella had to die. if its under the hands of a officer bully... then.. tt guy deserve punishment... cause its got nothing to do with whatever fcuk training to protect the country.. its a bully case.. the officer bulled cause he felt big doing it, and it caused someone death.. talking abt death to protect the country is just hiding the fact that the trainer was a bully. and to die under his hand is a waste. and it isn't worth itOriginally posted by the Bear:we do what we can...
does it mean we cannot save the world we should not give a damn anymore?
what have you done today?
don't even try to attempt to justify your callous nature.. you know how hollow and empty it is..
don't talk about animals and all that and equate them to humans.. maybe yourself if you want to.. BUT NEVER EVER refer to others as so... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT!
think about it...
someone has died.. tragically.. pointlessly because some gungho idiot who figured a human life was as worthless as you think it is, abused another human being.. and it caused that person's death..
diminished responsibility?
if he argues that, it bodes ill for the whole of the armed forces... it means that they do not have to shoulder any personal responsibility for their own actions...
what does the army teach? Mob and Pack mentality?
to be gangsters, ruffians, mobs and bullies?
you seem to think so.. -
so u implying u are macho?Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:ok then let ALL present and future soldiers b softies
inst can let trainees do wat they wan when they wan
and when its time 2 go 2 battle soldiers can choose 2 sacrifice or hide in da bomb shelter at home -
Heng, 35's a legend in his own lunchbox. What he's doing is talking the talk, but as a Pes C2, I don't know how much of the walk he can walk. Life sure is good when you can sit behind your desk and pontificate about how tough "we" really should be. If the sh*t ever hits the fan, our boy will be shuffling papers thanking his lucky stars that he's not taking the heat.
The irony of this is just sickening.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:let one's actions speak for one's self -
Originally posted by Gedanken:Heng, 35's a legend in his own lunchbox. What he's doing is talking the talk, but as a Pes C2, I don't know how much of the walk he can walk. Life sure is good when you can sit behind your desk and pontificate about how tough "we" really should be. If the sh*t ever hits the fan, our boy will be shuffling papers thanking his lucky stars that he's not taking the heat.
The irony of this is just sickening.