unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
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Tango, after chewing on your post a while (Sorry, brain a bit slow these days.
) I think I get what u mean, and i also think we are thinking along the same lines. Looks like we both agree that the problem of numbers would be a major problem.
As for the elitism thingy, i totally agree it exists, but i am worried if it will be made worse. But that said, i also dunno if it's a sure thing.
About the boys or men thing.... it got me laughing a bit
... i think u made me realise i am getting a bit old.... I think i am at that age when i am beginning to think more like a parent! (Oh no! )
Cheers Tango! -
wow. 300 posts. this thread is realli an epic! it goes all the way up there with titanic and LOTR (in the amt of time required to read all the threads).
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This thread has prompted me to post after lurking for some time.
From what I'm reading, I suspect I'm one of the older batch, having served 81-84...back when we were still wearing all green number 4's and heavily starched parade uniforms. I remember Pasir Laba camp, Tekong before it became the holiday resort it is now (limited medical facilities, limited drinking supply, no transport), and other training areas vidivdly despite having left Sg more than 20 years ago now.
Training and regiment was hard, no question. In OCS we were one of the last batches to have escape and evasion (E&E) training. Instructors did occasionally physically manhandle us, but in a fairly limited fashion. We were forced to eat our own feces and drink urine, which ultimately led to the cancellation of the program in OCS. I even had a WH on my file but it didn't make a difference, no instructor was aware of it.
The general mentality of instructors then was to pass on the same treatment and training methods as they received; most believed these were the standards that enforced discipline and developed good soliders -- break em down and build em up -- probably passed on from Israeli trainers a decade or so prior. As a company best recruit, top 10% OCT, and subsequently OCS instructor I was as hard core as well. Two of my platoon mates went to 1CDO and were outstanding officers. Both volunteered to do so. A number of us went through Guards conversion course as well. In all cases I'm sure a similar attitude to training and performance were carried to the units. Mindef started a policy to change these attitudes in the last months before we ROD'd, with what we perceived as increasing success and at the time, declining standards. Even in our day, however, we believed the training in prior years for those before us had been even tougher.
Some training led to accidental deaths. One trainee died in demolition live firing when trying to remove a dud charge, and the demo officer lost several fingers. Other trainees I am aware of died of various inherent physical reasons. We were pushed to extremes many many times; running 10 km in SBO after a ten minute breakfast following an all night exercise as punishment for "not performing well" on the exercise, and this included a number of runs up peng kang and other hills. Every single one of us puked his guts out during the run. Lots of other physical extremes I can recall, and even one occasion in Starlight when the entire platoon cried at the end of the exercise due to the physical and mental exhaustion (evacuating with 1/3 casualties 8 km as our own 3-tonners drove slowly in front of us -- after two weeks of hell in the field). On the other hand, lives were saved -- one trainee was medivac'd out of the jungles in Lancer after he had an allergic reaction to a bee sting -- thanks to the right safety protocols in place.
At no time did any of us feel in mortal danger, nor would we think of putting anyone directly in such danger. We were all physically capable of handling the training even though we were often tested to the limits. At worse someone gave up and failed the course or was cut.
The SERE episode put trainess in mortal danger and crossed the line. The instructors deserve to face the immediate and full extent of the law, and Mindef and the government the moral outrage of the citizens and NS men of Singapore. Anything less would make a mockery of the sacrifice the young men of the nation make daily to what we are told is the good of the country, and in this case the ultimate sacrifice. -
Thanks for that, unsung. From your experience, what measures were taken to ensure that the line was not crossed? What do you think was the root cause of this incident?
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haha singaporetyranosaurus heng you dao li. made alot of sense in his post..
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Nathan, I agree with you. I feel the same for these guys. They been through it and righfully earned my respect. When I am supporting their exercises, I always do more for them. This feeling just comes naturally.Originally posted by NathanG5:i will still be what i feel now..i will still feel angry n sadden..
im just a RP in a Airbase...the most pai mia RP in the whole of SAF..
but we are not as Pai Mia as the other vocations..
i see a Cdos as a brother in arm..i see a Guardsmen as a brothers in arm too..n all the other vocation..
i see them as brothers because we all wear green..we are all the same..
i still remember when i was doin night duty a few years back..the commandos and some SOF are coming in..in the early morning to do their jump..after ive check the nominal roll..when the 3 ton drive past me..i do a butt salute(izit call butt salute??)...there are not even officers..i do that becos i respect them..they even return a salute to me...one even shouted.."hey we are not officers"..n i shouted back.."i know"...n they wave me goodbye..
i still remember it clearly what happen that night... -
im glad u feel the same way as me...i would even go all the way to help SIR people when they need to send one of their boy who is badly injured to our Airbase Med Centre..Originally posted by Xprobe:Nathan, I agree with you. I feel the same for these guys. They been through it and righfully earned my respect. When I am supporting their exercises, I always do more for them. This feeling just comes naturally. -
imo, col noel is only a scapegoat in this incident...
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Originally posted by Unsung_Hero:
wtf.
Training and regiment was hard, no question. In OCS we were one of the last batches to have escape and evasion (E&E) training. Instructors did occasionally physically manhandle us, but in a fairly limited fashion. We were forced to eat our own feces and drink urine, which ultimately led to the cancellation of the program in OCS. I even had a WH on my file but it didn't make a difference, no instructor was aware of it. -
We were soldiers once and young...
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hEAR YE HEAR YE! No point talking about this tragic death now, the young trooper hath gone home to be with the LORD! Thou shouldst all rejoice that he hath been called home! Thou all might go to heaven if thou donst change thine evil ways!!
The last rites must be administered to the trooper! -
All you Army instructor are crazy man! Your go and watch American movie like Commando and Universal Soldier, and GI Jane and your become so crazy! Then your think you can make Singapore soldier train until so like that? You tink what? Every ah beng can be Arnold iszit?
Then somemore the training your all make supa hiong one! Submerge the soldier until drown one! Whoa lan eh! Lucky i ROD already lar! Your are crazy MINDEF!! -
So now what is going to happen to the instructors? I'll bet a courtmartial is in order right?
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unsung hero, i thank your for coming out to share this. I feel that a true professional would have never allowed what happened to have happened, and from your post, i see that my statement has been vindicated. I am thankful that u have spoken up regarding this issue, from a "been there, done that" group's view point.Originally posted by Unsung_Hero:This thread has prompted me to post after lurking for some time.
From what I'm reading, I suspect I'm one of the older batch, having served 81-84...back when we were still wearing all green number 4's and heavily starched parade uniforms. -
yea sure thing that he have "been there", "done that"..but one thing he haven done..he's not dead yet..Originally posted by HENG@:unsung hero, i thank your for coming out to share this. I feel that a true professional would have never allowed what happened to have happened, and from your post, i see that my statement has been vindicated. I am thankful that u have spoken up regarding this issue, from a "been there, done that" group's view point.
sure some of you been thru the toughest shit ever...i respect that..but ive bet u never been thru being dead.. -
Those are the black sheep in SAF, that does not uphold its true faith.
Sadistic instructors that ought to be condemed, for acting and taking out a person life.Mind you, the parents lost a young man with his dream and roles to fulfil. -
just wondering, has anyone else heard the rumours that the NSman cdo died in a different way that was described by mindef?
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no. how he died as described by the minisry of defence?Originally posted by laser51088:just wondering, has anyone else heard the rumours that the NSman cdo died in a different way that was described by mindef? -
- DID ANYONE MENTION THERE WERE CHILL BEERS IN THE RATION STYROFORM BOX AT THE SITE?Originally posted by jelanda88:Those guys are totally sadist lor....
They blinfold and tie pples hands together at the back....
Then they make u go thru various stages of POW treatment...
The 'highlight' of the program being WATER TREATMENT...
Ur hands are tied behind, u r bloody blindfolded. Then they start submerging u into SEAWATER(EXTREMELY DIRTY) in a tub....
The upper half of the body completely goes into the water, back of the head touching the water first.... its juz like lying down....
Then hands start pushing down on the mouth in order to cover the mouth while in the water... U cant breathe, those bastards attempt to tickle u to release water thru ur nose,subsequently the nose takes in water, lots of water..... Then we tried to stuggle, theres no way we could stuggle, cuz hands r tied behind...the only way is to shake violently inside the tub....Those assholes dont stop, they dunno when to stop.... They r juz outside laughing their heads off, "TELL ME WHICH UNIT U R FROM??!!!!", "TELL ME!"(as pows, we r not supposed to reveal which unit we r from,who our commanders r etc....)
Sadly to say, 4X is not the max..... some pple went in as much as 6X.... Those pple do not know their limits.... ITS MANSLAUGHTER, ITS MURDER.
This should not have happened,neva should have happend... I feel very very sorry for 2nd Sgt HU. Training was TOO REALISTIC.
-TRAINEES WERE SUBMERGED IN SEA WATER WHICH IS NOT MURKY BUT BLACK?
-TRAINEES WERE NOT BRIEFED THEY WILL NOT FAIL THE COURSE EVEN IF THEY REVEAL THE INFORMATION? -
double post
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dun type in caps la.. irritating..
the matter is over... let the family heal... but the army should review what goes on in the camp. and fark those ppl who approve of these treatment for watever self righteous reasons you blindly uphold. yes.. you know who you are.. stupid arses..
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OPENING REMARKS BY MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, RADM (NS) TEO CHEE HEAN, AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON TRAINING DEATHS
Good morning. Thank you for coming to MINDEF. Last month, I made a statement in Parliament about the deaths of three SAF servicemen during 3 unrelated training incidents. I informed Parliament that MINDEF had convened independent inquiries into these cases. These inquiries have since been completed, and I would like to give you an update on the findings of these inquiries. The SAF will also give you an update on the steps they have taken.
First, the case of 2SG Rajagopal Thirukumaran. He was a regular serviceman who collapsed on 3 September after completing a 5km run in the Ranger course selection test. The Higher Board of Inquiry submitted its report on 16 October. It found no evidence of foul play or negligence that may have contributed to 2SG ThirukumaranÂ’s death.
Second, the case of Recruit Andrew Chew Heng Huat. Recruit Chew was 30 metres short of completing his 2.4km run in the IPPT categorisation when he collapsed and died on 23 September. The Commission of Inquiry submitted its findings on 10 November. The COI found no indication of foul play, nor evidence of negligence or non-compliance that could have contributed to Recruit Andrew ChewÂ’s death.
On the cause of death of 2SG Thirukumaran and Recruit Andrew Chew: after thorough post-mortem examinations including toxicology studies, the forensic pathologist of the Health Sciences Authority (or HSA) found that there was no evidence of any traumatic cause or any unnatural cause that could have resulted from heavy physical exertion, such as heat stroke, that could have led to their deaths. The pathologist has also ruled out infective causes, such as myocarditis (which is a viral infection of the heart muscle).
The forensic pathologistÂ’s opinion is that the most probable cause of death for both 2SG Thirukumaran and Recruit Chew was the onset of a sudden cardiac arrythmia. What this means is that the heart began to beat irregularly and therefore could not effectively sustain the supply of oxygen to vital organs such as the brain, kidney and heart.
The HSA is now conducting further studies to conclusively determine whether there were any underlying medical reasons for the sudden cardiac arrythmia which resulted in the deaths of 2SG Thirukumaran and Recruit Chew. The forensic pathologistÂ’s final reports on the cause of deaths will be submitted to the State Coroner who will consider the reports and other relevant circumstances and facts. The State Coroner will hold the CoronerÂ’s Inquiry as soon as the reports and investigations are completed. This is a matter now for the State Coroner to decide.
The third case is that of 2SG Hu Enhuai. He died on 21 August during a Combat Survival Training (CST) course. I had informed Parliament on 16 October that an initial Higher Board of Inquiry and Commission of Inquiry found that 2SG HuÂ’s death from asphyxia and near drowning followed from non-compliance with the approved lesson plans during the conduct of the water treatment phase of the CST course. I told Parliament then that MINDEF would convene a second Higher Board of Inquiry to ascertain when the unauthorised water treatment started in the conduct of the CST course and how such a practice was allowed to creep into the lesson. The HBOI submitted its report on 6 November.
The HBOI found that water treatment, as specified in the lesson plan, had been part of the CST since the course was first conducted in 1993. Generally, from 1993 to 1997 the water treatment was carried out according to the lesson plan. This involved dousing the trainees with cold water, with the intent of showering them.
However, the HBOI found that, in some CST courses in 1998 and 1999 and regularly from 2000 onwards, the CST trainees had their heads placed under a running tap and their faces submerged in a washing bay which contained about 7 to 10 cm of water. From the 78th Course in April 2003, the traineesÂ’ heads were submerged in a tub which held about half a metre to one metre of water. These practices are not approved and not in accordance to the lesson plans.
The HBOI found that individual instructors conducting this training failed to refer to the approved lesson plan although they should have done so. New instructors also did not refer to the CST lesson plan. The preparation for the new instructors and those newly appointed to supervise and conduct a CST course, consisted mainly of observing the conduct of a previous course. Since new personnel were trained to conduct the course by being shown how the CST was conducted, these new personnel would subsequently use the methods shown to them when they ran their courses. Since instructors did not refer to the approved lesson plans, unauthorised methods of water treatment that had been used in a prior course could be perpetuated in subsequent courses.
The lesson plan was last reviewed in January 2001, by the School of Commandos. However, this variance in practice from the approved lesson plan was not detected.
Independent investigations by the CID and by the State Coroner into the death of 2SG Hu are in progress. The law will have to take its course. In the meantime, as I informed Parliament, we have suspended all the instructors directly involved in using the unauthorised method of training, and replaced those senior commanders who allowed these unauthorised methods to continue to be used so that the School of Commandos and the formation can conduct its review.
The SAF has taken a number of measures to rectify the shortcomings identified by the HBOI. I will now ask the Chief of Defence Force, Major-General Ng Yat Chung, to speak to you about the approach the SAF is taking to address these issues. After that, Colonel Hugh Lim, the ArmyÂ’s Assistant Chief of General Staff for Operations, will brief you on the ongoing efforts to improve training and safety management in the Army.
So perhaps, I should wrap up. I would just like to say that weÂ’ve had these committees of inquiry, the higher boards of inquiry in order to the bottom of these issues so that we can uncover what went wrong that day. Once we uncover what has gone wrong, then we are able to take the correct measures to put them right.
The SAF has briefed you on what measures they have already taken and what measures will be taken within the next three to six months to put these things right. The SAF is committed to ensuring that what happened to 2SG Hu is not repeated.
I also like to add that the response from the members of Parliament as well as the public has been a very mature and a very supportive one. And I appreciate that and the SAF appreciates that. Both CDF and I have been to visit the Commandos and I think they understand and appreciate the support that the public has for them and that gives them the strength to be resolved, to do what is necessary to put things right and to carry on doing their duty for the country.
And I would like to thank the public for their continued support and encouragement for the SAF, Army and the Commandos.
SAF Reviews Training Safety System
http://www.mindef.com.sg/display.asp?number=1951 -
Have it ever occur to anyone of you that it is all destiny?
Why all people who go thru the treatment come out alive? Only him dead?
Would the general public believe it's all destiny's work? For the people who lived, I would say, their destiny didn't allow them to die on that fateful day... -
oh no... i wished u hadnt said this. someone said this earlier on and... well.. be prepared to get flamed.Originally posted by fugue:Have it ever occur to anyone of you that it is all destiny?
Why all people who go thru the treatment come out alive? Only him dead?
Would the general public believe it's all destiny's work? For the people who lived, I would say, their destiny didn't allow them to die on that fateful day...
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destiny? wait a min here...i ask this question the other way round..Originally posted by fugue:Have it ever occur to anyone of you that it is all destiny?
Why all people who go thru the treatment come out alive? Only him dead?
Would the general public believe it's all destiny's work? For the people who lived, I would say, their destiny didn't allow them to die on that fateful day...
if the instructor didnt over do it..do you think the 2nd Sgt will die?
how about this..you cross a green light..im drunk n knock onto you..you die..so its all destiny no one fault..you have yourself to blame for crossing that greenlight..
do you really exactly know what happen before shooting your mouth off? or shld i say your finger?
read 1st before you start crapping anything..