unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
-
sometimes the gov tries to make the situation look pretty.Originally posted by NathanG5:http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/52548/1/.html
SINGAPORE: Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean on Thursday revealed that unauthorised training caused the death of a national serviceman, Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai who died on August 21 during a Combat Survival Training course.
Speaking in Parliament Rear-Admiral Teo said there was an extremely serious lapse of conduct in the training.
Advertisement
Investigations revealed that his head had been submerged underwater four times.
This is not allowed under the training and the cause of death was asphyxia and near drowning.
In a ministerial statement in Parliament, Rear Admiral Teo said the incident was a stain on the SAF and it should never have happened.
"This is an extremely serious lapse in the conduct of the training. It should never have happened. MINDEF takes the gravest possible view of the matter. I am determined to establish the full facts of how such an unauthorised act occurred and to identify the persons responsible for it.
"I have convened a Higher Board of Inquiry to do so. Investigations are also being conducted by the Criminal Investigation Department of the Police, and there will be a coroner's inquiry. The results of these investigations will be made public. Any SAF personnel who have been negligent or culpable will be held to account and punished according to the law," he added
Admiral Teo also said after the incident, Mindef had suspended five instructors who conducted the training.
Four others have also been relieved of their duties, including the Commanding Officer of the School of Commando Training while the Chief Commando Officer has been removed. - CNA
unauth training my arse... more likely was some official throw weight around n accidentally torture that guy to death..
i hope the results appear soon -
My Mister. IT WAS UNAUTHORISEDOriginally posted by 35MM Gunner:i tink if da instructors were 2 b charged wit manslaughter it is 2 heavy a charge
nobody wants tis 2 happen and who wud expect it 2 happen
It is important to remember that the SAF has to train our soldiers as they will fight. The harder and more realistically we train them, the more likely they are to fight well and survive when called upon to defend the nation. The training also has to be conducted professionally and safely. MINDEF therefore constantly aims to strike the right balance between training realism and safety. We take all the safety precautions and measures feasible to minimise risks. But in the nature of military training, there will always remain some risks which cannot be completely eliminated.
so, how long have i been saying he was drowned? See? I knew the whole thing long ago. Justice has been done. Thank God. Anyway u yourself said the training has to be "conducted professionally and safely". In my friend's instance, his death was because those people who think too highly of themselves have become unprofessional and paid no heed to safety. And you, my friend, in still trying to justify their actions where even MINDEF has indicted them of this crime, is coming dangerously near to being one of them. If those fools didn't want this to happen, they might do well to use their brains to think of the possible consequences of their actions, especially of having unsanctioned training practices. No use doing something brainless and then lamenting the past. In this case, it was a case of brawns over brains, which I fear, may just be a tad too common in the SAF.
No doubt that the willingness of MINDEF to reveal the whole circumstances of my friend's death shows a encouraging trend towards openness and honesty which an armed force with "ethics" as part of the 7 core values would well do with. -
no, it was unauthorised training. I know that is a fact. They did not follow SOP procedures.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:sometimes the gov tries to make the situation look pretty.
unauth training my arse... more likely was some official throw weight around n accidentally torture that guy to death..
i hope the results appear soon -
this incident is supposedly more serious than the rss courageous incident.
tt means those responsible are probably looking at jail term...
-
I once heard from a Guards 3SG during my NS that before he got posted to airforce as an RP section leader. He was with the Naval Diving Unit, that time he was in charge of taking care of NSF direct entry BMT. He told us that during every PT, there would be one ambulance waiting at the field and at least one would end up at sick bay after PT. Not that they PT was very tough but the PTI beat up those guys. The officers never took action and allowed it to happend and one day he could not take it anymore and fought with a PTI during PT, the navy posted him to the airforce. He told us how the recruits only had 10 mins to eat their meals and once sit down to eat they had to finish and fall in in 10 mins. He was very sad looking at that. Those recurits were like in hell and he commented how we airforce guys were in heaven. During his guards training, his friend died during the 10km run test and he was just meters from the finish line when he collapse. That guy died on the puma and the army never gave recog him as a guardsmen posthumously when he had completed almost every test and just shy of the 10km finish line. I guess that 3SG ORD bitter about the SAF.
-
these mus be quite long ago? but i dun realli understand.. how come hes from the guards AND ndu at the same time?Originally posted by cavsg:I once heard from a Guards 3SG during my NS that before he got posted to airforce as an RP section leader. He was with the Naval Diving Unit, that time he was in charge of taking care of NSF direct entry BMT. He told us that during every PT, there would be one ambulance waiting at the field and at least one would end up at sick bay after PT. Not that they PT was very tough but the PTI beat up those guys. The officers never took action and allowed it to happend and one day he could not take it anymore and fought with a PTI during PT, the navy posted him to the airforce. He told us how the recruits only had 10 mins to eat their meals and once sit down to eat they had to finish and fall in in 10 mins. He was very sad looking at that. Those recurits were like in hell and he commented how we airforce guys were in heaven. During his guards training, his friend died during the 10km run test and he was just meters from the finish line when he collapse. That guy died on the puma and the army never gave recog him as a guardsmen posthumously when he had completed almost every test and just shy of the 10km finish line. I guess that 3SG ORD bitter about the SAF. -
seems like most in here r 4 lax trg during NS
then may b it will b betta if we dun need 2 go thru ns at all?????
4 wats da use if u go thru NS but da trg is lax?????
then when war comes (in da event it really happens) b 4 our soldiers can fire da 1st shot he will RECEIVE da 1st shot instead?????
then who 2 b blamed then?????
da instructors?????
for they din train their trainees well enuff?????
its true tat its a tragic thing tat happened
but it is also their duty 2 train personnel under their charge so tat they can best defend our country when da need arises
i must admit tat since da findings have found tat they have done wrong they must face da consequences
but 2 put them behind bars i think its a little extreme
y not instead halt their promotion or face an early discharge or b posted out 2 some other unit or may b reduced 2 doin clerical duties
w/o da instructors who will train our soldiers????? -
just wondering if that occured quite sometime ago. cos more stuff seem to get in the news recently. . .Originally posted by cavsg:I once heard from a Guards 3SG during my NS that before he got posted to airforce as an RP section leader. He was with the Naval Diving Unit, that time he was in charge of taking care of NSF direct entry BMT. He told us that during every PT, there would be one ambulance waiting at the field and at least one would end up at sick bay after PT. Not that they PT was very tough but the PTI beat up those guys. The officers never took action and allowed it to happend and one day he could not take it anymore and fought with a PTI during PT, the navy posted him to the airforce. He told us how the recruits only had 10 mins to eat their meals and once sit down to eat they had to finish and fall in in 10 mins. He was very sad looking at that. Those recurits were like in hell and he commented how we airforce guys were in heaven. During his guards training, his friend died during the 10km run test and he was just meters from the finish line when he collapse. That guy died on the puma and the army never gave recog him as a guardsmen posthumously when he had completed almost every test and just shy of the 10km finish line. I guess that 3SG ORD bitter about the SAF. -
cos when he pass out as guards saf, post him to ndu, he also dun know why, after the fight he end up at rsaf. i think that time ndu start having nsf intake and need people to take care of recruits so ask army for help.Originally posted by wuming78:these mus be quite long ago? but i dun realli understand.. how come hes from the guards AND ndu at the same time? -
i guess you dun understand..someone die..n that is not suppose to happen..u get it dead,die death..go to heaven...i noe your a Cdos..
but pls act like a human
-
an instructor trains..
an instructor does not drown their charges...
i believe in tough training... goodness knows i went through it myself... my OC for BMT said that to us...
BUT, he fought with the CO himself over things he saw as "too tough" for recruits...
because he saw his primary unspoken and unwritten duty... to look after and protect his men...
you seem to be unable to see this...
training can be aborted and done again.. lives once lost are gone forever....
lax training can kill too...
thing is this: is there any reason to simulate drowning?
a life has been lost and you trivialise it by ranting about "training"...
the instructors? damn! of course they are to be blamed!! the bastards went against safety considerations of training and caused a trainee to be drowned!
they need to take some personal responsibility in this.. the armed forces, as much as i abhor military forces, become nothing more than armed rabble and gangsters if personal responsibility is abandoned
we are, after all, HUMAN...
HUMAN first before being soldier...Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like most in here r 4 lax trg during NS
then may b it will b betta if we dun need 2 go thru ns at all?????
4 wats da use if u go thru NS but da trg is lax?????
then when war comes (in da event it really happens) b 4 our soldiers can fire da 1st shot he will RECEIVE da 1st shot instead?????
then who 2 b blamed then?????
da instructors?????
for they din train their trainees well enuff?????
its true tat its a tragic thing tat happened
but it is also their duty 2 train personnel under their charge so tat they can best defend our country when da need arises
i must admit tat since da findings have found tat they have done wrong they must face da consequences
but 2 put them behind bars i think its a little extreme
y not instead halt their promotion or face an early discharge or b posted out 2 some other unit or may b reduced 2 doin clerical duties
w/o da instructors who will train our soldiers????? -
i'm not dis agreeing wit tis but wat assurance do we have tat in the event we r captured, our enemies do not use tis on us?????Originally posted by the Bear:thing is this: is there any reason to simulate drowning?
i believe tat trainees have 2 go thru every possible scenario so tat they will b prepared 4 n e ting tat happens -
deleted
-
eh mister.... u keep thinking its a small matter to take a human life right? halt promotion? please lah... u certain dun understand the gravity of the situation right?Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:then who 2 b blamed then?????
da instructors?????
for they din train their trainees well enuff?????
its true tat its a tragic thing tat happened
but it is also their duty 2 train personnel under their charge so tat they can best defend our country when da need arises
stop talking about training well enuf and training their charges best for blah blah.... in this case we never said anything about slacking off training. Training is perfectly fine. In this case, it was not training. It was unauthorised torture. I work in an Ops branch, I can tell u all training has to be filed up to and agreed by a branch within MINDEF. anything thats not approved, is not considered training. And in this case, clearly it is not training. So please get it into your brain that no one here is against tough training. We are against brainless and unauthorised procedures and methods during training. Against non approved training methods which have led to innocent and meaningless deaths. Against senseless acts of violence against trainees in the name of "training". and until you comprehend this point, your views on this subject remain off the mark, and moot. -
deleted
-
Originally posted by wuming78:
sha yi jing bai?
hm.. thinking further, what was done seem to be contradiction.
its [b]unauthorised trg tt killed the serviceman. unauthorised o cos means no permission was given.
in tt case removing the very head of the fmn wont do much good? its more likely than not tt he is oso in the dark.
he jus suay suay din impress upon his men enuff abt sticking to guidelines. or he suay suay kanna over zealous men. [/b]
(kill one to warn a hundred) -
oh.. right.. chances are people get shot... simulate getting shot by shooting the soldiers?
your train of thought is derailed..Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:i'm not dis agreeing on tis but wat assurances do we have tat in da event we r captured our enemies do not use tis on us?????
i believe tat trainees have 2 go thru every possible scenario so tat if they r captured they will b prepared and b able 2 handle da situation????? -
i haf to disagree wif u on this. although we seek realism in peacetime trg, it does not mean we go full fledge. tt is why even our live firings are so controlled and only certain units with certain readiness can conduct more liberal L/F. the balance between realism and safety is fine, hence the need for trg guidelines and safety regulations.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:i'm not dis agreeing on tis but wat assurances do we have tat in da event we r captured our enemies do not use tis on us?????
i believe tat trainees have 2 go thru every possible scenario so tat if they r captured they will b prepared and b able 2 handle da situation?????
anywayz i hope this thread does not turn into a flaming war. so lets cool it down all around ok?
-
hey tell u wad lah... next time u go stand at the range for ppl to shoot at. then realistic lah! then u'll "b prepared and b able 2 handle da situation" lah!Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:i'm not dis agreeing on tis but wat assurances do we have tat in da event we r captured our enemies do not use tis on us?????
i believe tat trainees have 2 go thru every possible scenario so tat if they r captured they will b prepared and b able 2 handle da situation?????
its very simple ok? IT WAS U N A U T H O R I S E D FULLSTOP. end of discussion. how u argue also dun make them right. so leave it, and go do some proper thinking. -
35mm Gunner, I'm afraid your logic is flawed to me. I'm all for realistic training, I do believe in te maxim that the more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war, but in this case, someone has to be hung. There is a reason why the TSR is there, that is to make sure that training, while realistic, stays within bounds of reasonabl safety and minimisin accidents/casualties.
I know that no matter what, accidents do occur, and people do die in training, no matter what we do. I'm not proposing we go out and hang someone whenever something goes wrong, sometimes (as in the case of the REC), theres just no-one to hang.
But look at this drowning case, its not as if all the TSR and safety rules were adhered to, and still someone died. Rules and regulations were in place, the instructors involved knew about it, and still wilfully disobeyed them and subject their trainees to unacceptable traineed. And it was not an isolated case, 1 died and 6 ended up in hospital with similar injuries...
As for the removal of the Chief Cdo Officer, too bad for the dude. Yes, he did not know, he might not have condoned it, and he might have stopped it if he knew what was going on. But those were his men, and he ultimately has to take responsibilities for their actions. Thats what a leader should be about. At least it will teach the next guy in the job to make sure those below him play by the rules.
Nathan G5, no doubt the Chief Cdo would have been told to "Shape up of ship out" after the BCU fiasco, he failed to do the 1st and simple logic follows that the 2nd happened. -
mabbe when mr teo took over as minister for defence he forgot to bai bai abit.
as soon as he took over all these things happened. -
seems like every 1 here is some how in some way biased against da SAF thus resulting in a 1 sided opinion on wat happened
as such i dun see n e point in tryin 2 reason da rationale behind all tat has happened which wuz my intent all along -
deleted
-
sometimes there is no rationale..
sometimes it's just a bastard of a bully who is running the training...
i know.. i had one as an instructor.. the piece of pigturd actually took pride that he went into DB for ill-treatment... well, after being demoted during our course and being put on a pile of charges, he stopped.. for a while...
there are just people who think they are "doing the soldiers good" by ill-treatment and exposing them to pointless dangers...
chances are, the piece of crap is like that... time he faced some punishment...
REMEMBER! a soldier DIED pointlessly.. because his instructor caused it...
time for personal responsibilityOriginally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like every 1 here is some how in some way biased against da SAF thus resulting in a 1 sided opinionon wat happened
as such i dun see n e point in tryin 2 reason da rationale behind all tat has happened -
Actually, the one who doesn't "get it" is you.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like every 1 here is some how in some way biased against da SAF thus resulting in a 1 sided opinion on wat happened
as such i dun see n e point in tryin 2 reason da rationale behind all tat has happened which wuz my intent all along
Like I've stated before, I'm all for realistic training, but within the bounds of the safety rules already in place. This is not the case here, coming from the Defence Minister himself. And someone died because a few decided the rules didn't apply to them. So they should get put in the dock for that.
Is that so hard to understand?