unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
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Our society can tolerate a tough military training.Our society can tolerate blood, toil and sweat.But our society will not tolerate death.NS is military training, and i emphasise on the word training. NS is not a system to end the life of young men prematurely.It is not that we are anti NS.But we entrust our life to the country, we expect the country to get us out of those 3 years alive. We can't have maniacs running the camps, we will lose more people both psychologically and physically.
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mr... u are not rationale... YOU are not thinking straight, claiming that unauthorised training is akin to realistic training. i would dare say u are not biased against anyone, just not thinking clearly.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like every 1 here is some how in some way biased against da SAF thus resulting in a 1 sided opinion on wat happened
as such i dun see n e point in tryin 2 reason da rationale behind all tat has happened
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its not really that simple... and no matter how much we may debate over here... the problem will remain and will continue to take lives and limbs of our younger gens passing through NS...Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Our society can tolerate a tough military training.Our society can tolerate blood, toil and sweat.But our society will not tolerate death.NS is military training, and i emphasise on the word training. NS is not a system to end the life of young men prematurely.It is not that we are anti NS.But we entrust our life to the country, we expect the country to get us out of those 3 years alive. We can't have maniacs running the camps, we will lose more people both psychologically and physically.
the problem lies in the culture of SAF....
the belief of the SAF COs who believe that the sure fire way for promotion is to get best unit award.... and they will do whatever it takes to get that promotion they believe they deserve...
some COs arent even interested in SAF, they are only interested in the pay if not the power that comes with the rank, they are not leaders, they are just salary soldiers.... like their civilian counterpart, seeking their next promotion...
the soldiers under their command are their tools to reach their next promotion... they dont give a damn about NSF under them... they only want to know if they are gonna get promoted come this next july 1st of every year...
i have been at the CO meetings... and i am very sad about the things that was spoken in the meeting.... it sucks.
the Commando camp CO was merely a scapegoat, though he is responsible for what happened... but he was brought up in this kind of SAF culture... those commanders above him from COA to CDF and the minister of defence is just as responsible for perpetrating such a culture in SAF, but they wont have the guts to drop their rank, offer to resign and accept their responsibilities.. so they kill a CO to save their own skin....
all CRAPs.....
admiral teo says he wanna dig up all the pass coverup incidents... my advice to him... so what if you dug them up? yes... they are recorded... but so what??
many of those officers are now promoted to very high rank and some could be holding very important post or in possession of highly sensitive information... is he gonna challenge them? is he gonna make them account for their past action? isit worth it?
surely... admiral must have knew all these when he was a soldier in SAF... dont tell me... he was promoted so high up the rank... he cant see wats happening beneath his nose? so much for singapore leadership... i think they need a revamp about how they select officers.... -
its not really that simple... and no matter how much we may debate over here... the problem will remain and will continue to take lives and limbs of our younger gens passing through NS...Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Our society can tolerate a tough military training.Our society can tolerate blood, toil and sweat.But our society will not tolerate death.NS is military training, and i emphasise on the word training. NS is not a system to end the life of young men prematurely.It is not that we are anti NS.But we entrust our life to the country, we expect the country to get us out of those 3 years alive. We can't have maniacs running the camps, we will lose more people both psychologically and physically.
the problem lies in the culture of SAF....
the belief of the SAF COs who believe that the sure fire way for promotion is to get best unit award.... and they will do whatever it takes to get that promotion they believe they deserve...
some COs arent even interested in SAF, they are only interested in the pay if not the power that comes with the rank, they are not leaders, they are just salary soldiers.... like their civilian counterpart, seeking their next promotion...
the soldiers under their command are their tools to reach their next promotion... they dont give a damn about NSF under them... they only want to know if they are gonna get promoted come this next july 1st of every year...
i have been at the CO meetings... and i am very sad about the things that was spoken in the meeting.... it sucks.
the Commando camp CO was merely a scapegoat, though he is responsible for what happened... but he was brought up in this kind of SAF culture... those commanders above him from COA to CDF and the minister of defence is just as responsible for perpetrating such a culture in SAF, but they wont have the guts to drop their rank, offer to resign and accept their responsibilities.. so they kill a CO to save their own skin....
all CRAPs.....
admiral teo says he wanna dig up all the pass coverup incidents... my advice to him... so what if you dug them up? yes... they are recorded... but so what??
many of those officers are now promoted to very high rank and some could be holding very important post or in possession of highly sensitive information... is he gonna challenge them? is he gonna make them account for their past action? isit worth it?
surely... admiral must have knew all these when he was a soldier in SAF... dont tell me... he was promoted so high up the rank... he cant see wats happening beneath his nose? so much for singapore leadership... i think they need a revamp about how they select officers.... -
Hello every1, jus my 2 cents,
It is tragic that a death has occured during the conduction of this so called "unauthorised training", but what I feel that it is more than meets the eye. I myself have gone through the supposely water treatment during SERE (getting my head dunked into water) and I am sure most of the older generation might have gone through even worse type of treatment during SERE which may last longer especially those who go through the Ranger course.
I don't know about how the training guidelines are like but I am sure that all those tekkaning session which we all know existed doesn't exist in the training guideline. What Mindef can approve of is certainly what that is seem humane. Thats why training guidelines will never have things like water treatment, not allowing to go toilet, high kneeling, deprivation of sleep or food in SERE. But those who have gone through it knows that it exist as it simulates NEARLY the conditions which will be given to a POW. But com'on, saying things like putting a bullet through the trainee head is exaggerating cause it is like saying there should be beating up of trainees, whipping them..cause I am sure not much mercy will be shown if u will to get caught. I am sure these kind of things wouldnt happen in peacetime training as it will DEFINITELY injure the soldier. (There has being no reported cases of people drowning from Water Treatment and I am quite sure it was implemented at the very beginning when SERE was introduced)
I am not siding with the people who caused the death of the CST trainee. My point is, to the best of knowledge, I know that water treatment is definitely part of the UNOFFICIAL package in SERE although it might not be in training guidelines so that, as to put it bluntly, MINDEF can cover their backside whenever there is a need.
However it is rather disturbing when we have 1 death and 6 other people who need to be rushed to the hospital. There has never happened before. So my conclusion is the instructors who are conducting it MIGHT have overdo it, maybe to the extent of forcing the heads into the water for over a minute or more. Other than that I am sure things like fringing the training guidelines in CST is just BULLSHIT cause I am sure most people who have gone through SERE or CST have gone through it.
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HEAR HEAR!! BRAVO! I AGREE TOTALLY! at least they shouldn't cover their mistakes with "unauthorized" and all that bullsh!tOriginally posted by the Bear:an instructor trains..
an instructor does not drown their charges...
i believe in tough training... goodness knows i went through it myself... my OC for BMT said that to us...
BUT, he fought with the CO himself over things he saw as "too tough" for recruits...
because he saw his primary unspoken and unwritten duty... to look after and protect his men...
you seem to be unable to see this...
training can be aborted and done again.. lives once lost are gone forever....
lax training can kill too...
thing is this: is there any reason to simulate drowning?
a life has been lost and you trivialise it by ranting about "training"...
the instructors? damn! of course they are to be blamed!! the bastards went against safety considerations of training and caused a trainee to be drowned!
they need to take some personal responsibility in this.. the armed forces, as much as i abhor military forces, become nothing more than armed rabble and gangsters if personal responsibility is abandoned
we are, after all, HUMAN...
HUMAN first before being soldier... -
poor guy.. well accidents are bound to happen
sometime when they have happened there's no way to reverse... one wrong step that it -
oh, its not that we are bias, its just that we weren't dropped on our head as a baby.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like every 1 here is some how in some way biased against da SAF thus resulting in a 1 sided opinion on wat happened
as such i dun see n e point in tryin 2 reason da rationale behind all tat has happened which wuz my intent all along
either that or u play too much CS.. hey.. reality check.. once shot, u can't do no bunny hop and run around like u're alright..
i dun believe in just because the media made the accident look unintentional.. means the SAF should just sweep it under the carpet. a human life was lost. for no reason at all. dying in battle is one thing.. dying for no reason at all.. thats just a waste of human life.. i believe the SAF should take responsibility for whatever that happens in the camp. since they are the ones who are incharge.
besides.. it was proven that that fella's head was sumerged 4 times.. i dun believe any idiot would force his body into the water to near drowning state.. his body reflexes would hv instinctively tried to protect itself.. more likely some asshole trainer use it as punishment.. condecending asses who loves to push their weight around.. -
i think i need to clarify... it seems that my last post might be a bit misleading....
1... i dont think admiral teo... is also one of those bastard CO whose only thing in their head is promotion...
2... neither do i think admiral teo approves of non-compliance with standing general orders...
3... i dont think he is negligent... nor the COA or CDF as well...
to be fair... in SAF... there are strict orders against unauthorised training and unlawful orders... and SAF do take a very serious view when such breaches occurs,....
i have seen several list of officers who were reprimanded, striped of their ranks and even put behind DB for ill-treatment of those under their charge... and serves that as a warning to would be other rambos in SAF...
unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world.... -
i agree with 100%Originally posted by tripwire:i think i need to clarify... it seems that my last post might be a bit misleading....
1... i dont think admiral teo... is also one of those bastard CO whose only thing in their head is promotion...
2... neither do i think admiral teo approves of non-compliance with standing general orders...
3... i dont think he is negligent... nor the COA or CDF as well...
to be fair... in SAF... there are strict orders against unauthorised training and unlawful orders... and SAF do take a very serious view when such breaches occurs,....
i have seen several list of officers who were reprimanded, striped of their ranks and even put behind DB for ill-treatment of those under their charge... and serves that as a warning to would be other rambos in SAF...
unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world....
we cant blame everyone in SAF..
ive got a story to tell..
back during my NS day...we have a very cant make it S3..who look like a panda..we hate him to the core...pick on the little thing he can find..
one day i was doin duty on a stormy night..its super CAT 1...lightning striking everywhere...
so during CAT1 we suppose to hide in the shelter of the Guardhouse..we are allow to take everything off..including our rifle..
except our poncho..
suddenly a car stop outside the guardhouse..so i check it out..it was my S3..i got fcuk upside down downside up..cos y im i not in my SBO n rifle..i explain its CAT1...n got insulted again...he told me its only rain...there is no CAt1..so i lan lan wear everything again..stand in the rain n hope that lightning wont strike me..
abt 10min later..another car drive past..its a LTC wearing a pilot jumpsuit..he ask me y im i out in the rain n its Cat1..i explain to him..he ask me to go back in the guardhouse..n he will explain things to my C.O n ask him to send his regard to the "nice" S3..
so not all officer are that bad..only some asshole -
unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world....[/b][/quote]
Erm, I think it is quite out of point for you to say this in this topic. Anyway, the statement "out of this world" seems abit too harsh. You should see how the elite units of US n UK behave...namely SEALs, SAS.. how ill-disciplined and how much they disregard the authority. But surprisingly, it is these people who get the jobs done.
I am not saying that the SAF commandos can get jobs done as they have not really seen real action yet except for some of the older generation there. But being humans, there are certainly some who will tend to have what you call over-breaming self confidence and the off-worldly pride, because of what they have gone through and the fact that they survive it gave them cause them to have such attitude. I am not saying it is right for them to portray such behaviour but somehow people, (I am not saying all) with such character are really good in their own ways and this cause them to be proud of their unit and themselves.
It is just really the traditions and the tough training of the unit that cause the commandos to portray the behaviour which you have described. Maybe you have bad experiences with some commandos, but do give them credit for what they have gone through and the "never say die or quit or lose" attitude which they possess. -
I agree partially with you about the asses thing. But I would like to say that submerging a person' head under the water for 4 times won't kill that person unless it is for a long period of time. Trust me I know it. I don't think that the water treatment part is a punishment. It is more like part of the standard training package which is not stated in the training programme.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:besides.. it was proven that that fella's head was sumerged 4 times.. i dun believe any idiot would force his body into the water to near drowning state.. his body reflexes would hv instinctively tried to protect itself.. more likely some asshole trainer use it as punishment.. condecending asses who loves to push their weight around..
However the fact that he drown and 6 others have to be sent to the hospital means that the trainers have overdone it. So they are still asses. =) -
[quote]Originally posted by tripwire:
[b]i think i need to clarify... it seems that my last post might be a bit misleading....
1... i dont think admiral teo... is also one of those bastard CO whose only thing in their head is promotion...
2... neither do i think admiral teo approves of non-compliance with standing general orders...
3... i dont think he is negligent... nor the COA or CDF as well...
I wish to debate on this issue. Firstly I am sure the COA, CDF, and your admiral Teo knows about such thing as water treatment in SERE or CST under the POW treatment. Com'on they have being in the SAF for such a long time. Even if they did not experience it before, they will have some friends in the commandos who tell them about it. Like what I have said, water treatment is all along, at least up till my times as an NSF, an unofficial training in SERE or CST package. Now they are denying the fact that it is part of the training and is unauthorised shows how they are trying to cover their asses. True, it is not in the training guidelines but like what I have stressed, training guidelines are meant to look good and humane. If not when anything happens, it is the top brass in MINDEF who is going to suffer. And now they are replacing the Chief and the CO of School of Commandos cause of this incident so that they can at least tell Singapore of what they have done.
Sadly it is the case almost everywhere in the world, top brass knows what is going on but when something happens, they use the guidelines to put the blame on someone so that at least people will still have confidence in them and the organisation. It is just politics...
Well my point is if you want to replace the CCO and the CO cause of the negligent conduct of the instructors, you replace the top brass in MINDEF too.
Punishment should therefore be meted only to the instructors for only the reason they overdo it and not to the fact that they implement such treatment. Cause I don't really think that the people at the top do not know that water treatment is usually implemented in CST and SERE. -
The school of commando's officer is very professional. They really do have the ability to train a good soldier. Unauthorised training??
This is a combat survival training. it teaches us how to survival without food for day. It teaches how to survival under the hand of the enemy. It is just an accident. Every Man in the CST, go through for the past 79 batch.. Until the last batch 80th , the first accident happened. POWs Treatment is a need for the commandos and other of the elite forces in SAF, The water treatment is just one of the way how the enemy forced you to say out all the essential information that they need. If this course discontinued, then how to you expected the future soldier to face the small experience of what they will be treated if they are in the hand of the enemy. Are they going to expect, food being served to them, shelter available, enough rest or 7 hours of sleeps? -
no one is blaming the School Of Commandos..Originally posted by ahkiat83:The school of commando's officer is very professional. They really do have the ability to train a good soldier. Unauthorised training??
This is a combat survival training. it teaches us how to survival without food for day. It teaches how to survival under the hand of the enemy. It is just an accident. Every Man in the CST, go through for the past 79 batch.. Until the last batch 80th , the first accident happened. POWs Treatment is a need for the commandos and other of the elite forces in SAF, The water treatment is just one of the way how the enemy forced you to say out all the essential information that they need. If this course discontinued, then how to you expected the future soldier to face the small experience of what they will be treated if they are in the hand of the enemy. Are they going to expect, food being served to them, shelter available, enough rest or 7 hours of sleeps?
someone die...so who is at fault now? who is to blame?
there are 100 and 1 way for a enemy soldier to force information out of u..how do u know that the instructor never over do?
how do u know all 80 Courses are done by the same batch of instructor?
the rest might be professional..but i dun think this guy is..
ive got a feeling that your tryin to tell me that that Guardsmen deserve to die?
all in support of the instructors here..u guys still cant get it do u..
its peace time training...u dun kill people in peace time training...
u guys talk as if its just another death..pls mind u.that its somebody son..
u wan realism?? as the Bear have recommend..in War most soldier die of gunshot wound..y not we implement live round n shoot our NSF? see if they can survive..if they die too bad then..just another death to u right..
pls act like a human..with a heart..
a soldier is to protect his country..protect the weak..protect the innocent...
during that time of the incident..who is there to protect that 2nd Sgt? -
hear hear!Originally posted by dumbdumb!:oh, its not that we are bias, its just that we weren't dropped on our head as a baby.
either that or u play too much CS.. hey.. reality check.. once shot, u can't do no bunny hop and run around like u're alright..
i dun believe in just because the media made the accident look unintentional.. means the SAF should just sweep it under the carpet. a human life was lost. for no reason at all. dying in battle is one thing.. dying for no reason at all.. thats just a waste of human life.. i believe the SAF should take responsibility for whatever that happens in the camp. since they are the ones who are incharge.
besides.. it was proven that that fella's head was sumerged 4 times.. i dun believe any idiot would force his body into the water to near drowning state.. his body reflexes would hv instinctively tried to protect itself.. more likely some asshole trainer use it as punishment.. condecending asses who loves to push their weight around..
/claps -
yes... agreed...Originally posted by NathanG5:no one is blaming the School Of Commandos..
someone die...so who is at fault now? who is to blame?
there are 100 and 1 way for a enemy soldier to force information out of u..how do u know that the instructor never over do?
how do u know all 80 Courses are done by the same batch of instructor?
the rest might be professional..but i dun think this guy is..
ive got a feeling that your tryin to tell me that that Guardsmen deserve to die?
all in support of the instructors here..u guys still cant get it do u..
its peace time training...u dun kill people in peace time training...
u guys talk as if its just another death..pls mind u.that its somebody son..
u wan realism?? as the Bear have recommend..in War most soldier die of gunshot wound..y not we implement live round n shoot our NSF? see if they can survive..if they die too bad then..just another death to u right..
pls act like a human..with a heart..
a soldier is to protect his country..protect the weak..protect the innocent...
during that time of the incident..who is there to protect that 2nd Sgt?
come on all u who think this is ok. STOP with all the pointless comparisms with other armies, SEALS, royal commandos and such! These guys are professional career soldiers! Thay were given the freedom of choice when they decided to enlist, whereas 2SG Hu is A NSF! DAMNIT! He had no choice, he is but a NSF, he's not even getting paid a quarter of what the commandos are getting paid to risk his life this way! SO WHATS YOUR POINT OF COMPARING US WITH SEALS? their SEALS aren't NSFs, so whats your point? The day when SEALS, Royal Commandos, yada yada have conscripted soldiers serving, then u morons come n talk. UNTIL THEN, stop this bullshit about comparing SAF Commandos and foreign elite forces! -
anyway no matter what anyone says, no matter what stinking attitudes some ppl have still trying to justify the need to cause his death, MINDEF have officially stated that it is unacceptable to have such unauthorised training. The blame lies squarely on themselves, and they have already accepted full resposibility for it. So no matter what u guys say, theres going to be changes. if u want to contest the policies of MINDEF, do so at your own risk. Just hope that u don't end up doing similar brainless shit like those commandos did. Or you'll pay the price too.
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Heng@, you seem to suggest we should divide the CST trainees into regulars and NSFs. Not that we must do it, but doing it will not violate your logic about professional soldiers and at the same time, maintain the realism for a SERE course.
I'm not against the water treatment and do not think that it is unauthorized. If MINDEF studies the training package of other SERE courses in the world, they will undoubtly find it in many countries. What happens was those damn instructors overdo it. 4 times and the hell knows how long each time. -
I believe that even if a SERE course should have water torture, these instructors screwed up. If so many trainees needed to be hospitalized, they overdid it. There is no question about that. Even those who have been through the SERE course have never seen so many people hospitalized. The five instructors were negligent. They deserve to be busted. The CO is ultimately responsible for them, so he deserves it too. The CCO probably got kicked because this is the second strike after the BCU fiasco. He is clearly inculcating a culture among the commandoes that is detrimental to the defense of Singapore -- all show, no substance.
Whether the SERE course should have water torture or not is not for the instructors on the ground to decide. It is not even for the CO to decide on his own. It needs to be decided by MINDEF, and the decision is enshrined in the TSRs. The decision is no immersion of the head, only hosing down. By not following these orders, the instructors are guilty of insubordination and their CO has been lax in maintaining discipline.
This also reveals a cultural problem in the SAF where just because previous instructors have done it before in previous batches, it suddenly becomes OK. It is not OK, no matter how many people do it or how long it has been a "tradition". It is still a breach of military discipline. If the instructors really felt that realistic SERE training needed immersion of the head, they should have brought it up through the existing chain of command. The CO could have suggested it to MINDEF and if approved after consultation with the SAF Medical Corps it would be put into the TSR. That is the way things are done in a professional and disciplined army. The instructors cannot just decide to do it on their own, turn it into their own "tradition" and "the only crime is being caught". That is not "tough, realistic training". That is simply NO DISCIPLINE! COs and instructors must not overstep their authority.
I am glad that the new minister is finally putting his foot down and cleaning this up. The SAF is turning into a bunch of private fiefdoms, where every unit just does whatever the hell it wants to do and tries not to be caught breaking general orders. That happened with the BCU competition. It is also common for other units to cheat, just that they weren't caught. Discipline needs to be reestablished throughout the SAF. When MINDEF says something must stop, it has to stop, not just "don't get caught" and "cover your ass". Those orders are given for a reason. -
come on ... think about ... so many year nothing happen ... what have really happen?
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Some trainees in the CST course don even know they WILL NOT FAIL the course even if they give in to the water treatment and give out the information. Sure the instructors didnt bothered to brief the trainees about the water treatment and POW treatment.
For the fear of failing the course and having to recourse, most endured thru the treatment, going into the water again and again not giving up. And why the trainees don struggle out of water when they cant take it anymore? Cos their hands are tied from behind and more than one instructor is holding them in the water...
i'm sure the instructors could have given briefing before the course and the trainees should be clear of the course, not lanlan have to go thru the treatment.
Jus too bad that the CCO is removed from his duties. The trust in his instructors to do the job properly had been a regret. He cant be everywhere to supervise the trainings, his trust had been misplaced. Let the sinned be dealt with... -
im glad to see u think that they can just have their own unauthorised training as and when they like. If it is so important, then include it into the training plan!Originally posted by Icemoon:Heng@, you seem to suggest we should divide the CST trainees into regulars and NSFs. Not that we must do it, but doing it will not violate your logic about professional soldiers and at the same time, maintain the realism for a SERE course.
I'm not against the water treatment and do not think that it is unauthorized. If MINDEF studies the training package of other SERE courses in the world, they will undoubtly find it in many countries. What happens was those damn instructors overdo it. 4 times and the hell knows how long each time.
what i am suggesting is that its time to stop comparing ourselves to other military forces because we ARE NOT, and WILL NEVER BE, a force of career soldiers. -
Hey, be nice! We're not all like that!Originally posted by the Bear:put a pile of gungho testosterone poisoned maniacs with single digit IQs, this is just waiting to happen...
Besides, the last five tests I took, I scored between 135 and 142 - not that it means anything.
It's not our fault that we're smarter, tougher and prettier than you lot!Originally posted by tripwire:unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world....
Okay, seriously, now.
Despite all of the uniformity imposed by military structure, a unit is composed of individuals at the end of the day. The upshot of this is that you will inevitably get you mixed bag of angels and arseholes. Unfortunately, there is no preemptive way of weeding out the arseholes - a problem has to be severe enough before significant action can be taken.
A case in point would be two of the platoon sergeants in my company - I will call them N and S for convenience. S was my platoon sergeant, and I swear you will never find a more professional soldier in any army. His level of preparation as a trainer was as close to perfect as anything I have ever seen. He knew the minute details of the subject matter, and he made sure we understood not only what we were supposed to do and how we were supposed to do it, but why as well. The result was a platoon that still ran like a Swiss watch when plans went right out the window, as they are wont to do after the first shot is fired. Not that things were entirely problem-free, of course. As tripwire had pointed out, we do lack some discipline, but in administrative matters. On the rare occasion that something screwed up, S never raised his voice. He would simply come into the barracks, shake his head in disappointment and ask what we thought we were doing. The whole platoon would trip over themselves backwards to set things straight.
N, on the other hand, was the ultimate psychotic boy scout. He would be running around, yapping like a Jack Russel on amphetamines, terrorising his platoon. Nutcase that he was, I would not be at all surprised if he was the instructor who drowned the trainee - it sounds perfectly like him.
The funny thing about it was that N was ex-SOF, while S always stayed in the battalion. My OC at the time was from SOF and was performing his OC tour with my company. When the CSM was sent off for his Warrant Officer's course, the OC had to pick a stand-in CSM for an overseas exercise. Despite being non-SOF and being outranked by N, S was selected to be the CSM, and as always, did a sterling job of it - he was selected as the best CSM amongst the companies that went for that exercise.
The impression I got was that the OC, being a man of good judgement, would have entirely preferred not to have N in the company. Wherever possible, the important jobs went to S instead despite his being of lower rank, because he was more competent. However, N was a lifer, and there was not much that could be done about that.
On top of that, we once ended up in the same training area as some of the SOF guys. N hung around with them, trying to look like one of the boys, but they pretty much ignored him. However, they did repeatedly approach S and ask him when he was going to join SOF, and S had to keep saying that he was happy in the battalion. The SOF boys preferred not to have N about as well, but unfortunately, unlike units like the SAS, the selection process does not allow for rejection on the grounds that the candidate will not fit in with the unitÂ’s ethos.
The unfortunate bottom line is that I am not surprised at all that something like this incident happened - with arseholes like N running about, it was bound to happen at some point. Even more unfortunate is the fact that nothing much could have been done about it until it was too late. -
I have lost touch with army long time liao, and I dunno abt the things there. One thing for sure, NSF will never have the rank of 2nd SGT. The reports may be wrong in mentioning the NS status of the soldiers, sometimes in articles, they wrote active NSF as NSman.. (NSman title is for those who already ORD).Originally posted by HENG@:yes... agreed...
come on all u who think this is ok. STOP with all the pointless comparisms with other armies, SEALS, royal commandos and such! These guys are professional career soldiers! Thay were given the freedom of choice when they decided to enlist, whereas 2SG Hu is A NSF! DAMNIT! He had no choice, he is but a NSF, he's not even getting paid a quarter of what the commandos are getting paid to risk his life this way! SO WHATS YOUR POINT OF COMPARING US WITH SEALS? their SEALS aren't NSFs, so whats your point? The day when SEALS, Royal Commandos, yada yada have conscripted soldiers serving, then u morons come n talk. UNTIL THEN, stop this bullshit about comparing SAF Commandos and foreign elite forces!
All are my personal thoughts and true to my knowlegde.