unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
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it's the people u meet in army lah...
its just suay he got an arsehole instructor...
i'd be suay if i kena an arsehole pilot, i'd be killed in no time too. -
Can someone please enlighten why the CCO was being relieved of his command while the captain of the naval vessel that collided was not.
Didn't the vessel collided under the captain's command. Wasn't he responsible for the highly sophisticated vessel which is supposed to be on the alert 24hrs on open seas?
Or isit because the boys from Hendon have stepped on one too many tails of the straight legs brass that it has become open season on the red after the BCU case. -
eh... that navy guy is in court liao leh...
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if i am not wrong, the two naval officers in court are not the captain of the vessel. Let me know if i am wrong...
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[quote]Originally posted by HENG@:
[b]
yes... agreed...
come on all u who think this is ok. STOP with all the pointless comparisms with other armies, SEALS, royal commandos and such! These guys are professional career soldiers!
No one is comparing our people with them. I have just brought them in cause of this "out of the world" pride and self-confidence. Moreever it was stressed that we are not as good as them cause we ain't see anything yet. Oh by the way those people don't do it for the money. It is damn miserable too. -
thats where u are wrong. now they do give NSF 2sg ranks liao.Originally posted by lotus:I have lost touch with army long time liao, and I dunno abt the things there. One thing for sure, NSF will never have the rank of 2nd SGT. The reports may be wrong in mentioning the NS status of the soldiers, sometimes in articles, they wrote active NSF as NSman.. (NSman title is for those who already ORD).
All are my personal thoughts and true to my knowlegde.
it depends on vocation, and as he was a guardsmen sniper, hence the rank. I had a disruptee in my office a while back. He was an ordinary NSF, but he took a long disruption to study architecture. he had a 2sg rank and was in his late twenties, so i mistook him for a regular, but found out later he was a NSF. apparently, he told me that back b4 he disrupted, it was very common for NSF 3SGs to be promoted to 2SGs due to a lack of manpower, hence his rank.
so its not true that NSF WILL NEVER have the rank of 2sg. -
captain also in trouble...Originally posted by sorrowz:if i am not wrong, the two naval officers in court are not the captain of the vessel. Let me know if i am wrong...
wah kopi! damn violent siah!
the pilot next time take off then wun land anymore right? haha
then we know who serviced the plane liao -
It is probably better to make the comparison with professional armies. The real pros do not pull stunts like this, so that only strengthens the case against the idiot who drowned the trainee.
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I'll be killed lah! not him!Originally posted by HENG@:captain also in trouble...
wah kopi! damn violent siah!
the pilot next time take off then wun land anymore right? haha
then we know who serviced the plane liao
but i want to kill him also can -
in the navy case, the fault does not lie solely on the navy side. and there is no gross negligence and over-sight, and outright and blatant disregard for regulations and guidelines.Originally posted by sorrowz:if i am not wrong, the two naval officers in court are not the captain of the vessel. Let me know if i am wrong...
in the army case, it was established that the instructors disregarded the guidelines and regulations. -
Soldiers are no good in a war if they are all killed off during training. One also needs to know that our service to the nation in this area is not something many of us do on our own accord, but are rather conscripted by a system deviced by the govt. The very least they can do is make sure everything is done to give us the highest chance of surviving this liability.
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
hmmm... true actually...
It is probably better to make the comparison with professional armies. The [b]real pros do not pull stunts like this, so that only strengthens the case against the idiot who drowned the trainee.[/b] -
eh eh... without kopi... airforce cannot fly liaoOriginally posted by kopiosatu:I'll be killed lah! not him!
but i want to kill him also can -
I totally agree with what 35MM Gunner said.Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:seems like most in here r 4 lax trg during NS
then may b it will b betta if we dun need 2 go thru ns at all?????
4 wats da use if u go thru NS but da trg is lax?????
then when war comes (in da event it really happens) b 4 our soldiers can fire da 1st shot he will RECEIVE da 1st shot instead?????
then who 2 b blamed then?????
da instructors?????
for they din train their trainees well enuff?????
its true tat its a tragic thing tat happened
but it is also their duty 2 train personnel under their charge so tat they can best defend our country when da need arises
i must admit tat since da findings have found tat they have done wrong they must face da consequences
but 2 put them behind bars i think its a little extreme
y not instead halt their promotion or face an early discharge or b posted out 2 some other unit or may b reduced 2 doin clerical duties
w/o da instructors who will train our soldiers?????
For those who died serving the SAF during peace time, it is a loss to SG as there are lesser and lesser males to do NS. Also my sympathies to the family of the late for the pain and anguish they are going thru. Life and death is already predestined. When the time for a person is up, no matter what he/she is doing, they will leave this world. There are news reported that a healthy person could die when sleeping etc... Get what I am trying to say?
I did my NS from '92 to '94. We had been 'tekan' as and when the specialists like and also the harsh trainings yet no one died (of course to compare my time and those who serve NS earlier than me, mine is nothing to them).
Before these 3 sad incidents happen, countless of men died in peace time training, but the attention was not as big as this and mostly all have been covered up. NSF today are given too much welfare, with what Defence Minister said in parliment yeasterday, I believe it will be more switch off..e.g. compulsory lights off at 10pm, after which no more 'tekan' or standby bed, sekali now abolished liao.
NS is supposed to turn boys to man with those tough trainings and discipline but now, I think boys after NS are still boys...
Can we depend on SAF to defend SG when there is a crisis in future? NOoooo! I can't imagine too much anyway it will never happen. I suggest MINDEF withdraw all the 'garang' ads and commerical available to the public to save $$$ if our army are going soft. Let's hope Tim Huxley won't give our Army discounts in his next book on SG defence. Slogans quoted from the ads & commerical, "what u can't defend is not yours", "We never mistake peacefulness for peace", "who has the training" and more which i can't remember. puke.....
Yawn......i am getting bored now.. -
very true... don't know why they even complain abt BMT lifestyle... so blardi relaxing now.Originally posted by lotus:NS is supposed to turn boys to man with those tough trainings and discipline but now, I think boys after NS are still boys... -
fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.Originally posted by lotus:I totally agree with what 35MM Gunner said.
For those who died serving the SAF during peace time, it is a loss to SG as there are lesser and lesser males to do NS. Also my sympathies to the family of the late for the pain and anguish they are going thru. Life and death is already predestined. When the time for a person is up, no matter what he/she is doing, they will leave this world. There are news reported that a healthy person could die when sleeping etc... Get what I am trying to say?
I did my NS from '92 to '94. We had been 'tekan' as and when the specialists like and also the harsh trainings yet no one died (of course to compare my time and those who serve NS earlier than me, mine is nothing to them).
Before these 3 sad incidents happen, countless of men died in peace time training, but the attention was not as big as this and mostly all have been covered up. NSF today are given too much welfare, with what Defence Minister said in parliment yeasterday, I believe it will be more switch off..e.g. compulsory lights off at 10pm, after which no more 'tekan' or standby bed, sekali now abolished liao.
NS is supposed to turn boys to man with those tough trainings and discipline but now, I think boys after NS are still boys...
Can we depend on SAF to defend SG when there is a crisis in future? NOoooo! I can't imagine too much anyway it will never happen. I suggest MINDEF withdraw all the 'garang' ads and commerical available to the public to save $$$ if our army are going soft. Let's hope Tim Huxley won't give our Army discounts in his next book on SG defence. Slogans quoted from the ads & commerical, "what u can't defend is not yours", "We never mistake peacefulness for peace", "who has the training" and more which i can't remember. puke.....
Yawn......i am getting bored now.. -
still lives were lost in both cases. the naval vessel is a military vessel that is supposed to be on 24hrs alert. collision like that is not supposed to happen to naval vessels. The captain is responsible for his two officers' actions and the lives of his dead crews. why then are the two officers the only one persecuted. for the case of the cdos, the responsiblity somehow warrant the relieve of command all the way to the top. isn't that a discrepancy in holding the people responsible?Originally posted by wuming78:in the navy case, the fault does not lie solely on the navy side. and there is no gross negligence and over-sight, and outright and blatant disregard for regulations and guidelines.
in the army case, it was established that the instructors disregarded the guidelines and regulations. -
navy case: proper procedures were followed. accident was circumstantial and unforeseen.Originally posted by sorrowz:still lives were lost in both cases. the naval vessel is a military vessel that is supposed to be on 24hrs alert. collision like that is not supposed to happen to naval vessels. The captain is responsible for his two officers' actions and the lives of his dead crews. why then are the two officers the only one persecuted. for the case of the cdos, the responsiblity somehow warrant the relieve of command all the way to the top. isn't that a discrepancy in holding the people responsible?
army case: proper procedures were not followed and not due to ignorance but blatant disregard and risk-taking in the name of training. -
e captain also was relieved of his duty right?Originally posted by sorrowz:still lives were lost in both cases. the naval vessel is a military vessel that is supposed to be on 24hrs alert. collision like that is not supposed to happen to naval vessels. The captain is responsible for his two officers' actions and the lives of his dead crews. why then are the two officers the only one persecuted. for the case of the cdos, the responsiblity somehow warrant the relieve of command all the way to the top. isn't that a discrepancy in holding the people responsible? -
i don't think its necessary to use such language. we can always attack one's viewpoints and arguments without making personal attacks and throwing up emotions. blurring the line between the two does not contribute or add value to discussions.Originally posted by HENG@:fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.
just my two cents. -
the loss of your friend is sad. but many have gone through the same SERE, countless sessions of takans and yet survived. To those who cried for heads to roll and bloods to flow, how many of you have undergone the same SERE conducted in hendon. ask yourself are you crying for blood becuz the incident involves cdos who somehow drew much irk from you or are you really concern about the plight of those who are "being tortured". I personally have gone through the SERE package and it was a real experience for me. But compare our SERE and to those conducted by the other armies, ours is definitely considered very very tamed.Originally posted by HENG@:fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.
Yes it is not right to compare our cdos to the SAS, SEALS, etc because ours is not a professional army like theirs. But that does not mean that we have to be wussies and cry out for heads to roll for unauthorized training.
It will be sad if the death of the guardsman will mean the toning down of the SERE package of the SAF. Doing that will only mean that more of our boys will not be able to hack it should the shit hit the fan. The death should not happen, but it did. We should learn from it and hopefully, SAF trainers will be more mindful of the trainees' welfare when pushing them to the breaking point. -
if i remebered correctly, the naval vessel was in the wrong sea lane, made a wrong turn. hardly a case of "accident was circumstantial and unforeseen.".Originally posted by wuming78:navy case: proper procedures were followed. accident was circumstantial and unforeseen.
army case: proper procedures were not followed and not due to ignorance but blatant disregard and risk-taking in the name of training. -
here SAF is trying to improve its safety standard and professionalism in standards and there you are supporting unauthorised training. wow......Originally posted by sorrowz:the loss of your friend is sad. but many have gone through the same SERE, countless sessions of takans and yet survived. To those who cried for heads to roll and bloods to flow, how many of you have undergone the same SERE conducted in hendon. ask yourself are you crying for blood becuz the incident involves cdos who somehow drew much irk from you or are you really concern about the plight of those who are "being tortured". I personally have gone through the SERE package and it was a real experience for me. But compare our SERE and to those conducted by the other armies, ours is definitely considered very very tamed.
Yes it is not right to compare our cdos to the SAS, SEALS, etc because ours is not a professional army like theirs. But that does not mean that we have to be wussies and cry out for heads to roll for unauthorized training.
It will be sad if the death of the guardsman will mean the toning down of the SERE package of the SAF. Doing that will only mean that more of our boys will not be able to hack it should the shit hit the fan. The death should not happen, but it did. We should learn from it and hopefully, SAF trainers will be more mindful of the trainees' welfare when pushing them to the breaking point.
want tougher training? no one is saying that we can't have tougher training. no noe is saying we must slack off. but we must make sure all training procedures are reviewed, with clear guidelines, and cleared by the operations branch of MINDEF. simple. submit lesson plan. run a risk assesment for the training proposed. get it approved by the senior commanders, by MINDEF. make sure proper guidelines are written. THAT should have been done, instead of taking matters into their own hands.
if we stick to this mentality that "traditionally we have done this so it is ok", then SAF can never reach the level of professionalism they aspire to reach. -
HENG@, can you pls talk in a proper manner?!Originally posted by HENG@:fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.
The way u reply in your posting could neither kill me nor make my day bad, it only reflects ur personalities, bad upbringing, showing us what kind of person u are. I pity your parents... If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz..........
I dun want to waste my time talking to uncivilised pple.... bye......... -
yah right... keep your descriptions of yourself private... dun come n let us know that u were all that and more, thank you very much.Originally posted by lotus:HENG@, can you pls talk in a proper manner?! The way u reply in your posting could neither kill me nor make my day bad, it only reflects ur personalities, bad upbringing, showing us what kind of person u are. I pity your parents... If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz..........
I dun want to waste my time talking to uncivilised pple.... bye.........