unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
-
To tripwire regarding ----->unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world....
a few words to say to you..... why dun u come and join commando training.... if you've never been thru it... pls keep ur words to ya self thanks..... -
Well, at the end of the day, people have to realise that when they talk about safety and 'realistic training', they are coming from opposite directions. The important thing is to find a decent compromise between the two concerns. Realistic training comes at a price, which is the added risk of having bad things happen. However, it is pointless if safety is ignored and TSRs are thrown out the window. Realistic training by all means, but concern about safety should be paramount. I know this is hard for some to swallow, but training a soldier is pointless if u're gonna end up with a soldier who gets seriously injured or (as in this case) killed.
The only good thing to have come out of this is that people (like us)are here talking about this, and that people are aware.
For what it's worth, i think the commandos (and even the navy) have had a bad year, but hopefully they will learn from this and come back up a stronger and a even better fighting outfit. -
Ooooo..here come Darren..i expect you reply sooner or later..lolzOriginally posted by DarrenWong:To tripwire regarding ----->unfortunately, commandos are slightly different from other units... their seeming lack of discipline, over-breaming self confidence and off-worldly pride, is truely, out of this world....
a few words to say to you..... why dun u come and join commando training.... if you've never been thru it... pls keep ur words to ya self thanks.....
once again nobody here is blaming the Commandos...we are blaming that particular asshole who kill the 2nd Sgt..
i see some of u here want tough training..hey its good..btw tough training dont kill people...so stop the crap that the instructor is not wrong..
Special Forces in other country prefer to have brain over brawl..its the same for Singapore..but there is always a degree high level physical demand..higher then normal infantry soldier...
but mind u guys...we are not like USA..we are not Israel...i hope u guys realize that tough training is good..killing someone is not..so stop the justification that the instructor is not wrong..
doesnt mean that 2nd Sgt is not a Commandos..he have to die..
even if you are Cdos,Gds,Infantrymen..pilot,Arti..Tankee..we all wear green we are all brothers..we are human a civilian..a father and a son..
we were young n stupid once... -
I will be happy to take you up on this point. My service was from 1990 to 1993, in the old days when the barracks were on Netheravon Road, out of sight of the CO's office where instructors were given much more leeway in their actions.Originally posted by sorrowz:the loss of your friend is sad. but many have gone through the same SERE, countless sessions of takans and yet survived. To those who cried for heads to roll and bloods to flow, how many of you have undergone the same SERE conducted in hendon. ask yourself are you crying for blood becuz the incident involves cdos who somehow drew much irk from you or are you really concern about the plight of those who are "being tortured". I personally have gone through the SERE package and it was a real experience for me. But compare our SERE and to those conducted by the other armies, ours is definitely considered very very tamed.
Yes it is not right to compare our cdos to the SAS, SEALS, etc because ours is not a professional army like theirs. But that does not mean that we have to be wussies and cry out for heads to roll for unauthorized training.
It will be sad if the death of the guardsman will mean the toning down of the SERE package of the SAF. Doing that will only mean that more of our boys will not be able to hack it should the shit hit the fan. The death should not happen, but it did. We should learn from it and hopefully, SAF trainers will be more mindful of the trainees' welfare when pushing them to the breaking point.
I was, and still count myself as, a Commando. I will state definitively, from the perspective of someone who was there in the days of the old barracks, and of someone who more than survived the training that far exceeds your SERE course in intensity and duration, that the actions of the trainer were wholly unacceptable.
Captain Roger Courtney said to his batch of SBS recruits in 1942: "Are you TOUGH? If so, get out. I want f***ers with intelligence". That is the essence of the unit - the macho crap is only a corollary.
The distinction between the Commando ethos and that of other units is that every commando is expected to think for himself and act upon his judgement, rather than running, getting into prone position, letting off a few shots and waiting for further orders. Anything else that we do is simply an extension of that principle.
As such, the training is meant to impart that faith in one's individual judgement - this leads to the impression of poor discipline, as tripwire has pointed out, and also to the actions that we tend to take, which are executed only because they are necessary to get the job done - not to impress anyone.
It follows then that the instruction provided must be as professional as possible. I expect that, more so than any other unit, the operating principle reads, "Leave your testosterone at the door". Anybody deviating from that principle is untrue to the Commando ethos.
I will therefore entirely disagree with you that "we have to be wussies and cry out for heads to roll for unauthorized training". That is simply against the standards of Commandos, and for that heads will indeed have to roll.
On other notes...
Darren - we are mad, bad and dangerous to know - that is what we always have been, and God willing that is what we always will be. Live it up.
Lotus, Heng@ is right - you are a dickhead if you think that killing off our soldiers is in any way, shape or form good for the military. With your armchair Rambo attitude, I find the irony of your posting "If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz.......... " absolutely sickening. -
From my point my view, I think most of the people here thinks that those arguing for tougher training feel that the instructor is right and that the guardsman deserve it.
1)I would like to say few words for some of them. Firstly we never think that the instructors are correct in any way. They are bastards as they might have overdo the training thus resulting in the death of someone and the hospitalisation of 6. As such they are the people who are to be blamed.
2)Secondly the change of the CCO and the CO is what I feel unjustified for. Water treatment has being part of the SERE/CST package ever since the pioneers came back from training in the US. It is definitely not as simple as dousing water over one's body. I am not very sure whether the CDF, the COA and even RADM (NS) Teo knows about it but they should as they have being in the service for so long. It is nothing new. But well someone up there has to take the blame for it to appease perhaps the public? It is just politics.
3)Training guidelines are always and as usual there to cover the backside of the top brass in case anything goes wrong. Well someone just died and now they are saying "when the hell did this kinda shit got into the SAF" and thus they relieve the commands of both the CCO and the CO of SOC. These people have being in the military for so long and they are claiming they never heard of water treatment in the SERE/CST package. Bullshit!
4)To whoever who says that the professional army in the world do not pull of such similar stunts, you are wrong. I bet you have never heard of surf torture or the infamous hell week where the instructors are literally devils who just want to get you out of the course. But of course what they have done are professional in the sense that while implementing such stuff, they ensure that the trainee don't die of it.
5) To Heng, I must agree with you to a certain extent that the death of a trainee undergoing this kind of so called "unauthorised training" shit is uncalled for. However dunking your head into the water for 4 times doesn't kill you. It is the duration when your head is submerged into water that kills you. Therefore I think it is only justified to say that the instructors involved get punished for it for overdoing it and not ensuring the safety of the trainee. This is the 1st time water treatment killed one person and hospitalised 6 others and therefore it must have only to be negligence by the instructors involved. If it is to be unauthorised training, then I feel that the Minister of Defence, CDF, COA should resign as I am quite sure that as far as the training guidelines did not write anything about it, they know things like that are happening. But well sad to say, it is politics again... -
Really? Is that a fact now? Fine. Give me some examples that you have experienced for yourself. No, not anecdotes you have heard from your neighbour's cousin's boss' accountant. Things that you have experienced for yourself.Originally posted by duajia:4)To whoever who says that the professional army in the world do not pull of such similar stunts, you are wrong. I bet you have never heard of surf torture or the infamous hell week where the instructors are literally devils who just want to get you out of the course. But of course what they have done are professional in the sense that while implementing such stuff, they ensure that the trainee don't die of it.
Have you run up and down The Jetty with a Zodiac and gear through the wee hours of the morning? Do you know exactly where The Jetty ends? Have you ever had a GPMG as an alarm clock? Do you know exactly what the implications of a trip to Changi Beach are? How much skin did you leave on Netheravon Road? How much time did you spend at Hendon or its predecessor? Don't bother trying to impress me - you just made the wrong bet.
Now run along and play. -
Double post.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
Cool it dude
Really? Is that a fact now? Fine. Give me some examples that you have experienced for yourself. No, not anecdotes you have heard from your neighbour's cousin's boss' accountant. [b]Things that you have experienced for yourself.
Have you run up and down The Jetty with a Zodiac and gear through the wee hours of the morning? Have you ever had a GPMG as an alarm clock? Do you know exactly what the implications of a trip to Changi Beach are? How much skin did you leave on Netheravon Road? How much time did you spend at Hendon or its predecessor? Don't bother trying to impress me.
Now run along and play.
[/b]
.. I have experienced everything you have experienced plus a thunderflash in the room too and hugging a cold block of ice in the sea. Well you are not the only one who has being there and seen that but thats not the point of this topic right. =).
Anyway I didn't refute your point on the professionalism of the soldiers of other countries. The surf torture and the hell week which I have described is just what happen when you undergo BUD/S training. What I am trying to say is the professional trainers of elite units of the US and UK do pull off such torturous stunts on their trainees to weed out the weak but at the same time they ensure the safety of them. This is what I called professionalism. -
It is unfortunate what has happened - I think people here should just calm down a little bit.
-
ok..we can come up with a conclusion now..
we all agree that tough training shld continue..but minus the sadistic trainers...we dont need those sadistic people..
but now there will be a thin line between trying to implement tough training n being sadistic..
izit possible to have tough realistic training n care for our soldier at the same time after this incident?
is there any specific guideline? or the present TSR is sufficient? -
mabbe if water treatment is allowed to be continued, give it a timelimit for the heads to be submerged. mabbe say about anywhere between 15-30 seconds. After which the trainees is allowed to come up for a breathe? Safety officer should be around to ensure that?
-
Right - you push them to their limits and you make sure they learn how to survive the conditions - the operational word here is survive.
The guys I personally know from SF units in other armies (can't name them - OSA), some of whom are 25-year veterans, have seen our training (minus trying to kill our own soldiers) and agreed that it meets the standard, and also that the rumours of wacky macho-shit routines are untrue.
If you have indeed been there and done that, you would know that there's plenty of time for the gung ho crap when the rounds start flying. Funny thing is that in BTEC, we used to see other units trying that nonsense on the approach to target, leaving themselves too tired to fight properly when contact was made. It is all unnecessary and it is a waste of energy. -
Yup I cant agree more with you. It is about survival. I am sure you have undergo water treatment in your SERE package too. Just that the "Comrades" are humane enough to let you come up for a breathe when they know your limit.
Tough training isn't about killing someone, it is about pushing someone's body and endurance to the limit while ensuring that he does not die.
Well this time mistakes happen and I must agree that the instructors involved must take full responsibility of it. -
the safety officer..shld he be a non red beret?Originally posted by duajia:mabbe if water treatment is allowed to be continued, give it a timelimit for the heads to be submerged. mabbe say about anywhere between 15-30 seconds. After which the trainees is allowed to come up for a breathe? Safety officer should be around to ensure that?
becos if he is not..he will not understand the toughness of the training n whats the limit.. -
The present TSR is more than sufficient - hell, if you dropped it on somebody you could injure them.Originally posted by NathanG5:ok..we can come up with a conclusion now..
we all agree that tough training shld continue..but minus the sadistic trainers...we dont need those sadistic people..
but now there will be a thin line between trying to implement tough training n being sadistic..
izit possible to have tough realistic training n care for our soldier at the same time after this incident?
is there any specific guideline? or the present TSR is sufficient?
If anything, officers and senior NCO's need to be given more leeway to exercise their judgement. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my OC knew that platoon sergeant N was a walking disaster, but within the regulations could only limit the damage by so much.
It would be interesting to see the comments in the instructor's performance reviews in the few years leading up to this incident. I expect that the language would be rather bland, but would provide some indication that the instructor was capable of having drowned the trainee. -
Well I guess when such form of training is implemented I am sure the officers involved regardless whether he wears red or not will be briefed on the required standard and how he should supervise the process. Well since he is responsible for the life of another fellow human, I don't see why he will overdo the limit. Anyway safety officers usually come from the same conducting school or unit. It really doesn't matter, seriousOriginally posted by NathanG5:the safety officer..shld he be a non red beret?
becos if he is not..he will not understand the toughness of the training n whats the limit.. -
lolz..i agree with all that..especially about the TSR...Originally posted by Gedanken:The present TSR is more than sufficient - hell, if you dropped it on somebody you could injure them.
If anything, officers and senior NCO's need to be given more leeway to exercise their judgement. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my OC knew that platoon sergeant N was a walking disaster, but within the regulations could only limit the damage by so much.
It would be interesting to see the comments in the instructor's performance reviews in the few years leading up to this incident. I expect that the language would be rather bland, but would provide some indication that the instructor was capable of having drowned the trainee. -
Lotus, Heng@ is right - you are a dickhead if you think that killing off our soldiers is in any way, shape or form good for the military. With your armchair Rambo attitude, I find the irony of your posting "If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz.......... " absolutely sickening.[/b][/quote]
Another name-calling id.10t ....Hello!!! Did u read and fully understand my post or not? Plssss read till u understand, thank you very much.. Since when did I say 2nd Sgt Hu or the others who died in NS deserve to die? I repeat again - I said one's life & death is already predestined, if his/her time is up, no matter what they are doing at any time, they will still pass away....
[size=small]With your armchair Rambo attitude, I find the irony of your posting "If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz.......... " absolutely sickening.[/size]
Before you side anyone, again pls, do me a favour.... read what was his reply to my posting.
alamak....so many blinded goondus out there...
-
Don't go hiding behind that "what I meant to say" nonsense. You were obviously trolling. Ha. "like a man"? What would you know about that? Predestined death and all such other superstitous hokum? Are you saying that if somebody is "predestined" to die, the person who killed him is absolved of all responsibility? Who, pray tell, is the goondu?
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
I was from a later batch from you and I know the kind of training you had. I do not dispute that, in fact I have more respect for the seniors than you could imagine. In comparison I guess that the seniors will always feel that juniors don't quite hack it like they do. I hold that thought too, that is why I think the guys nowadays have it too easy from the start. That is why I say we don't have to be wussies for unathorised trainings. They are already there from day one nowadays...
I will be happy to take you up on this point. My service was from 1990 to 1993, in the old days when the barracks were on Netheravon Road, out of sight of the CO's office where instructors were given much more leeway in their actions.
I was, and still count myself as, a Commando. I will state definitively, from the perspective of someone who was there in the days of the old barracks, and of someone who more than survived the training that far exceeds your SERE course in intensity and duration, that the actions of the trainer were [b]wholly unacceptable.
............................... Heng@ is right - you are a dickhead if you think that killing off our soldiers is in any way, shape or form good for the military. With your armchair Rambo attitude, I find the irony of your posting "If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz.......... " absolutely sickening.[/b]
You had it worst than I had, do you think you can withstand what that guardsman had gone through? The fact is we don't know. We don't know to what extent the treatment was being handled out.
I am not saying that the instructor is right in his unathorised ways. But did we not endured some form of unathorised training during our tour? The instructors were wrong then as they were wrong now, but didn't those exact unathorised ways brought out the very best in us. They were wrong in their methods as safety was not given a higher consideration than it warrant. But I beg to differ when legs called them names like bastards and killers. Sure there are some hard asses in Hendon, but I doubt very much that any of them will want any of us to be killed. They are not stupid in that sense. Negligence yes, murderers definitely not. -
from another forum:
anyway thanks gendaken and bear n all others who have managed to see the folly of unauthorised training and arguing against it.Originally posted by vleelee:I remember a few nasty incidences during my time :
- during PT run, 1 fellow had shortness of breath. He stopped but was pulled along by the officer. Ended up choking on his vomit and fainted with heat exhaustion. Not a pretty scene seeing his face turning blue.
- 1 night, officer was in bad mood. ordered the platoon out for tekan session. forced 1 fellow to do push ups with full pack and 84mm. that fellow ended up with slip disc and was down graded.
- 1 fellow did not did hos fire trench fast enough. officer made him hold a lighted flashbang and allowed him to run to another trench before he can throw it off. He did not make it and lost his thumb nail.
- 1 fellow did not perform his 'take cover' drill well enough. sergent made him do it on rocky slope. that fellow slipped and lost his bottom 2 front teeth.
- 1 section did not make to check point in reasonable time. sergent made the section leopard crawl to the next check point. the section ended up with very bad cuts to knees and elbows. No. 4 was covered in blood. Whole section was attend C for 7 days and got out of course and kana recourse.
- officer not happy with platoon loading up the 3 tonner. made the platoon go in and out of tonner. 1 fellow ended up with broken shoulder blade and got down graded.
- motar section was tired and did not keep surrounding area clean. sergent made section run round the motar pit carrying motar rounds. 1 fellow ended up with a crush toe and 1 fellow ended up with a crushed thumb (you see, kind of hard running around in pitch darkness carrying 2 of those 120mm rounds)
How to have faith in the system ? sigh ...
Indeed, we shouldn't even have to be arguing against unauthorised training because there isin't even 2 sides to this coin. It is wrong, simple as that. It is sad that there are many who argue here and try to justify the instructor's actions. I do appreciate that many, while arguing for tough training, do acknowledge that in that case the instructors went overboard.
Darren, just to let u know, we don't blame the commandos as a formation. we blame the instructors, who unfortunately happened to be from commandos. What we blame is the culture in SAF for having unauthorised training due to "tradition".
I guess, now that all's said and done, we all hope nothing of the sort happens in future. But it is not enough to continue as b4 and hope for the best. Rather, changes, improvements, should be implemented to ENSURE that such things do not happen, and that any unfortunate incidents like this should be out of man's hands, and not due to a moment of folly. -
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[color=blue]Originally posted by HENG@:
fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HENG@, can you pls talk in a proper manner?! The way u reply in your posting could neither kill me nor make my day bad, it only reflects ur personalities, bad upbringing, showing us what kind of person u are. I pity your parents... If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz..........
I dun want to waste my time talking to uncivilised pple.... bye.........[/color]
That was my reply to HENG @. If you want to quote my quote, pls quote the WHOLE paragraph, or at least a few sentences that doesn't twist my words... I find you are like MY, likes to twist and turn things to their favour and also put words into others' mouth.. I guess your favorite tidbits is "twistee"....
-
so lotus..you are tryin to tell us that the instructor is not at wrong?
that the Guardsman deserve to die?
pls explain yourself...someone done something n cause the death of another human being..
if it was u..how your parents gona feel? -
gen just ignore him. obviously he feels that just because he suffered, others must also suffer in the same way that he did.
-
Very well then. In fact, I read this post before I read the other.
Originally posted by lotus:
Like I said in my last post - predestined death and other such errant supestitions. GOONDU.
I totally agree with what 35MM Gunner said.
For those who died serving the SAF during peace time, it is a loss to SG as there are lesser and lesser males to do NS. Also my sympathies to the family of the late for the pain and anguish they are going thru. Life and death is already predestined. When the time for a person is up, no matter what he/she is doing, they will leave this world. There are news reported that a healthy person could die when sleeping etc... Get what I am trying to say?I did my NS from '92 to '94. We had been 'tekan' as and when the specialists like and also the harsh trainings yet no one died (of course to compare my time and those who serve NS earlier than me, mine is nothing to them).
Read MY post - 1990 to 1993, starting out at Netheravon Road and ending at Hendon Camp. I am easily more qualified than you are to talk about these matters, and even in light of that, I say that the instructor, who is more than likely to have been one of my contemporaries, is caterogiaclly wrong in his actions, even if the trainee was "predestined" to die.Before these 3 sad incidents happen, countless of men died in peace time training, but the attention was not as big as this and mostly all have been covered up. NSF today are given too much welfare, with what Defence Minister said in parliment yeasterday, I believe it will be more switch off..e.g. compulsory lights off at 10pm, after which no more 'tekan' or standby bed, sekali now abolished liao.
Tough guy, huh? Aw boohoo, Mr I-did-my-hard-times wants to match up? Don't even bother trying.
NS is supposed to turn boys to man with those tough trainings and discipline but now, I think boys after NS are still boys...
Can we depend on SAF to defend SG when there is a crisis in future? NOoooo! I can't imagine too much anyway it will never happen. I suggest MINDEF withdraw all the 'garang' ads and commerical available to the public to save $$$ if our army are going soft. Let's hope Tim Huxley won't give our Army discounts in his next book on SG defence. Slogans quoted from the ads & commerical, "what u can't defend is not yours", "We never mistake peacefulness for peace", "who has the training" and more which i can't remember. puke.....
Puke, yawn - you're a troll, so don't go throwing your toys out of the pram when you are called up on it.
Yawn......i am getting bored now..
Now your post is there in all of its charmless glory, and it is utter bilge. Like I said, don't go hiding behind that "what I meant was" rubbish. Either stop acting like a panty-liner pansy, or stop talking about being a man because you haven't the slightest clue.