unauthorised training caused the death of a national service
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Very trueOriginally posted by |-|05|:According to my dad who was in like the 5th batch of NS recruits well that's the truth!He also said the mortar guys had it worse.....they had to each piggyback a 2m tall steel cabinate down 3 stories.The cabinate weight something like 200kg's and if they fell the cabinate crushed them but they had to get up and continue going down.My dad was considered lucky since he was posted to a signal unit which was trained by the brits.Those israelis are tough cookies!Especially since ALL of them came over to train us right after their war in the 50's!
Except the last part , the israelis trainers are from 1967 war . -
Doubtless the Israelis are tough, but I would question the assertion that this is why they have been so successful against opposing armies. It is more so the case that they have always been better trained than their opponents, especially at the general staff level. The Israeli coordination between their air and land forces was good enough to wipe out the Egyptians' and Syrians' Soviet-based system of ground-based and -controlled air defence, after which they went after the other ground targets with impunity. Also, the Israelis had no compunction against preemtive strikes, and their armour tactics were easily the best in the region.
In other words, they won because they were smarter, not tougher. For the bigger picture of defence, the time given to train soldiers in NS is much better spent creating a smarter army than in torturing them for no good ends. -
Most properly yes! As I think the SAF keep emphasize on ‘THINKING SOLDIERS’.......Originally posted by gary1910:The SAF training is lame compared to early days.They r no safety rules in tekan session as long u dun kill anyone.
One old bird from the first batch of NS AI who is trained by the Israelis told me that they gone thru hell during BMT worst than the CST,if u laugh without authorisation , he will ask u to open your mouth and will spit into your mouth and command you to swallow his saliva.
If you reported sick and came back with only ATT B, you will get hell from him and wish you did not report sick .
You will ask how come they dun resist? If you do , he will tekan you till you comply. If u are not happy , you could challenge him to fist fight after training anytime, rank aside.
Hokkian pengs did & got beaten by the bigger & experienced Israeli veteran.
His philosophy in training: If you dun hack in my training , you will not hack it in a real war.
Maybe this is why the Israeli never lose a war.
In the early days of NS, recruit commited suicides were year in year out affair, AWOL was common(even heard one whole platoon Awol together, BOI case of cos), training death in almost every major exercise.
So the question is , Are soldiers getting so soft tat they could not hack it in a real war?
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Well they had their backs againest a wall then.....And nothing to lose....so they went all out.Also helpped that they had better pilots and morale.Originally posted by Gedanken:Doubtless the Israelis are tough, but I would question the assertion that this is why they have been so successful against opposing armies. It is more so the case that they have always been better trained than their opponents, especially at the general staff level. The Israeli coordination between their air and land forces was good enough to wipe out the Egyptians' and Syrians' Soviet-based system of ground-based and -controlled air defence, after which they went after the other ground targets with impunity. Also, the Israelis had no compunction against preemtive strikes, and their armour tactics were easily the best in the region.
In other words, they won because they were smarter, not tougher. For the bigger picture of defence, the time given to train soldiers in NS is much better spent creating a smarter army than in torturing them for no good ends. -
its a pity that guy died. Actually all the tortures has been carried out all along... 3 yrs ago till today... as far as i know... ... so many pple went through the course. If u think the training is sadistic.... y those pple who went through it never KIT?
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i guess u never bother to read any of the post here...Originally posted by remess:its a pity that guy died. Actually all the tortures has been carried out all along... 3 yrs ago till today... as far as i know... ... so many pple went through the course. If u think the training is sadistic.... y those pple who went through it never KIT?
may i ask u..how did 2nd Sgt Hu die? i would kindly advise u to use his full name n rank...not just guy..pls give some respect..
simple question how did 2nd Sgt Hu die?
n y 2nd Sgt Hu KIT? -
double post
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This kind of tough training does not happen just to CST trainees. Ask the Commando BMT trainees and they will also have lots of stories to tell you.
Manhandling is part and parcel of commando training, regardless of the phase the trainee is in.
Often, the instructors will make us, the trainees, do things to inflict pain on ourselves. This way, they will not be accused of manhandling us.
There was no avenue for us to report this. There were no SAF counsellors we could turn to.
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From the way I read your post… I think you too…. Felt that it’s a pity that this thing gonna happen during the training! First of all…. I think some of the guyz down here… Will only focus on ‘WHY HE DIE’ ….. they will keeping asking you this SIMPLE question!! They have never tot of anything else!!!Originally posted by remess:its a pity that guy died. Actually all the tortures has been carried out all along... 3 yrs ago till today... as far as i know... ... so many pple went through the course. If u think the training is sadistic.... y those pple who went through it never KIT? -
From the beginning of ur posts till ur last postÂ… I can feel that you keep thinking that some of us here was THINKING or SAYING its RIGHT for the instructor to takan their trainee or etc! plssss I believe non of the guyz here will say ITS RIGHT for such things to happen! ButÂ….. I just hope that at the same timeÂ…. You also try to UNDERSTAND more about commando and others unit culture as wellÂ… if you expect others to accept your point of viewÂ…. Please stay cool and be a listener as wellÂ….Originally posted by NathanG5:i guess u never bother to read any of the post here...
may i ask u..how did 2nd Sgt Hu die? i would kindly advise u to use his full name n rank...not just guy..pls give some respect..
simple question how did 2nd Sgt Hu die?
n y 2nd Sgt Hu KIT? -
lotus.... you are wasting your timeOriginally posted by lotus:NathanG5,
soo sorry for my poor memory, yes u are rite.. it shldn't be my 1st posting regarding this topic....as it is irrelavant. My 1st posting talk about the rank only (abt a NSF can't be a 2nd Sgt). Full stop for this,end of story.
For those who died serving the SAF during peace time, it is a loss to SG as there are lesser and lesser males to do NS. Also my sympathies to the family of the late for the pain and anguish they are going thru. Life and death is already predestined. When the time for a person is up, no matter what he/she is doing, they will leave this world. There are news reported that a healthy person could die when sleeping etc... Get what I am trying to say?
I wasn't refering to anybody at all. Perhaps you will understand when I used me myself as an example.. from the beginning, I shld type "I am alive and kicking busy defending my myself now, maybe when I go to bed tonite, I won't be able to wake up again cos it is predestined."
cheers -
SAF = Serve And Fuc[/i]k-off
That is why the NSF instructors + Trainees also lan lan one.......
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The absence of one opinion does not automatically mean that the opposite applies - just because nobody said it was right does not necessarily mean that they are saying it was wrong. It is the wrongness of the instructor's actions that is being debated here.Originally posted by NDU:I can feel that you keep thinking that some of us here was THINKING or SAYING its RIGHT for the instructor to takan their trainee or etc! plssss I believe non of the guyz here will say ITS RIGHT for such things to happen! ButÂ….. I just hope that at the same timeÂ…. You also try to UNDERSTAND more about commando and others unit culture as well
I will categorically take the stand that the instructor was wrong, and I will say this from the perspective of one who knows the culture very well. As I said in a previous post, I was trained by a man who was good enough at his job that SOF was inviting him aboard, and based upon what I learned from him, this instructor's act was wrong because it was unnecessary, unprofessional and totally counterproductive. It is this kind of instructor that contributes to the Commandos' wholly undeserved "all balls no brains" image. -
arrrr..the problem now lies with you..from my start of my 1st post in this thread..i never bash the commandos..ive understand more then u about the culture of commandos..i have lotsa frens who wear the red beret..i dont misinterprete others people post..that fact is someone die..some of guys treat it like dirt!!!Originally posted by NDU:From the beginning of ur posts till ur last postÂ… I can feel that you keep thinking that some of us here was THINKING or SAYING its RIGHT for the instructor to takan their trainee or etc! plssss I believe non of the guyz here will say ITS RIGHT for such things to happen! ButÂ….. I just hope that at the same timeÂ…. You also try to UNDERSTAND more about commando and others unit culture as wellÂ… if you expect others to accept your point of viewÂ…. Please stay cool and be a listener as wellÂ….
do u still remember the thread u post after the death of 2nd Sgt Hu? u justify the way of that instructor!!! im still holding grudge with u about that...people SHLDNT DIE FROM TOUGH TRAINING!!!!
and once again i say...u are the one who have not been read others post..not me.. -
i guess u cant get the fact that he die of near drowning n asphyxia?Originally posted by NDU:lotus.... you are wasting your time
cheers
it is not predesntined death..if u think a soldier shld die in training..go ahead keep on with that thinking...if you dont get it..i pity you..i really do..
ethic..yea rite... -
Hi NDU,Originally posted by NDU:lotus.... you are wasting your time
cheers
Kam Sia if you are helping me...
I gave up in this debate already bcos some pple juz can't seems to know what I am saying when i am using simpe english.... 
keep on putting words in my mouth which I didn't say.
i go hide in my CD shelter cos I will receive arty bombardments soon....
enjoy your weekend... -
if your point is valid..y wana go shelter?Originally posted by lotus:Hi NDU,
Kam Sia if you are helping me...
I gave up in this debate already bcos some pple juz can't seems to know what I am saying when i am using simpe english....
keep on putting words in my mouth which I didn't say.
i go hide in my CD shelter cos I will receive arty bombardments soon....
enjoy your weekend...
my dear fellow soldier..read your own post again n tell me again..
i ask again in your old post u talk about predestined death..doesnt it mean that 2nd Sgt Hu death is expected?
u link a human death to a animals death..whats does it really mean? its means that u treat human life like shit..i would advise wisely to read your own post again!!
so we all shld keep our mouth shut?? to u its just another death..to me its someone else son..n u still dont get it..u dont even know what u wrote in your 1st post...
u hide till someone come rescue u..a MAN indeed..a MAN indeed.. -
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,215191-1066514340,00.html?
Quote: "For now, he has taken up the minister's suggestion that those worried may call an SAF hotline, write to the SAF Council or see their MPs."
There are 3 ways to feedback:
1) call SAF Hotline
2) write to SAF Council
3) see their MPs.
During my NSF time, all the soldiers are gathered and were told by OC that we are NOT ALLOWED to see/seek MPs DIRECTLY. We should go through proper channel (Commanders in the unit). Anyone see/seeks MPs directly without going thru' proper channel will be CHARGE IMMEDIATELY.
With this kinda of FEAR and THREAT instilled in the servicemen who knows nothing about NS rules, procedures and regulations, who DARED to see their MPs for any real cases?
Till today, I am still unsure. Will soldiers be CHARGED if we see/seek MPs directly without going thru' proper channel first? Anyone knows? -
Hi, new to the forum but definitely not new to the topic. I have been reading all the information that I can gather, (at least from the internet, as I am currently not in Singapore) about the death of the serviceman (NSF). Its a sad day for SAF as much as its a sad day for Singapore, for we have lost yet another abled man.
Like every other abled young man, I served in the SAF as part of my national service to Singapore. To many, they call it a Serve-And-F**koff experience, to me, it was a rite of passage. This experience is unique only to a couple of countries around the world. (eg. Israel, taiwan ...etc) I truly understand that not many of us were that keen to serve in the SAF (be it the Navy, Airforce or the' Dreaded' Army). However, it sure did make some of us a better man.
Many would agree that the 'NSF' experience is not one to look forward but definitely sweet to look back on. Nobody enjoys the lost of freedom and tough training (for me, that includes keeping awake in air-conditioned lecture theatre - we call it fighting the ZzZ monster) while in service. All of us can't wait for the day when we get to collect our pink IC from the manpower clerk and wave goodbye to regimented life for good (until reservist comes along that is).
It always seems more personal when you are part of the experience or event, therefore, for those in the forum that are still in national service, its natural to feel more aggrieve as you are still subjected to the illegal practices during your training. (It would be presumptuous of me to suggest that no one has been subjected to illegal training before, everyone did, face it.. its just the magnitude of illegality) For some of the old timers out there, the SAF has really changed alot. Not many can remember Pasir Laba camp anymore and not many can recall charging up Peng Kang Hill. We must understand that the SAF is always learning and changing to suit times. However, that doesn't make those that are going through national service now any lesser than those before them.
2Sg Hu's death should be look upon as a landmark rather than another piece of statistic in the history of SAF. The 'tekan-culture' would definitely pipedown for a while, but it will never ever be totally eradicated. Soldiers today serving national service are unlike those in the past. They are mostly highly educated and have high ideals in life (not that those in the past didn't, but being educated and idealistic during my father's time just seems to be a rarity, having enough to eat and a roof for shelter is top priority).
Then we got to ask ourselves. Would our national service experience be any different, if we didn't have to carry our duffle bag and ran around the parade square, or get turned-out in the middle of our sleep to perform ridiculous exercise till dawn or stand in the parade square for hours without water break? It is these experiences that made my memories of national service so much sweeter.
However, what good is it to have to go through all that and not live to remember it. Where do we draw the line between realistic training and tekanning-session? The TSR? Screw the TSR, its like what has been said earlier, something to cover the backside of the top-brass, so that someone down the line can be held accountable. So that some small little fry can take the blame for what has happened. Today the small fry was Noel Cheah.
Some of us may have been instructors before and found that to operate fully within the TSR is ridiculous. How many of us had been deprived of sleep before an exercise the next day? 7 hours of undisturbed rest is a myth. There are compromises made everyday with regards to training standards. Some are too lenient, some are too overboard. Where do we go from this scenario, go easy on the guys in service? That has only a temporary comforting effect, but in the long run, SIngapore stand to lose. The people responsible should be made accountable and pay the price for their actions. The removal of the CCO seems harsh but that is what the chain of command is for. But then going by that argument, Rear Adm.Teo should have resigned too. What do you think? haha.. In any case, whichever side of the fence we sit on, lets hope that 2Sg Hu's death has not been in vain, let it be a lesson learnt for SAF and a stern reminder to those in service. And to all those out there that felt that they have been ill-treated in training, there is always the SAF Counseling Helpline. (Doing an endless set of 20 pushup does not count as ill-treatment, we've all been through that, come on, you've got to come up with something better!!!) Cheers!!! -
are we still able to instill a soldier disipline with just only tough training? for years military organisation use the theory..to make a person a soldier..1st u need is to break them down..
unless i have mistaken..the meaning of breaking them down is tekaning?
i dont mind a tekaning session..but i hate a sadistic tekaning without even a mild bit of conscience..
cases of NSF being abuse who cant take it...n shot his own PC and buddy..n kill himself soon after...
my friend is one of them...who cant take the abuse..he kill himself using a M-16 while doin guard duty...blew him own head off..he never want to bring those responsible with him...there were no sign at all that he is goin to kill himself..even to the last minute..
n still there are people out there..tryin to protect those sadistic bastard..justify their way..when we cry foul abt the case..we were told whats the big deal..people die everyday..n link it with farm animals...
its a sad time now...becos humanity is not there anymore...
i believe the last of humanity die with Mother Teresa.. -
ppl are advised to seek MP as last resort. and they wont get charged for seeking MP. anyway i think even at tt time, if they realli went to see MP they wont get charged. the MP wil be alerted the first time. if the MP finds out the person got charged for seeing him wat wil he do?Originally posted by thinker:http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,215191-1066514340,00.html?
Quote: "For now, he has taken up the minister's suggestion that those worried may call an SAF hotline, write to the SAF Council or see their MPs."
There are 3 ways to feedback:
1) call SAF Hotline
2) write to SAF Council
3) see their MPs.
During my NSF time, all the soldiers are gathered and were told by OC that we are NOT ALLOWED to see/seek MPs DIRECTLY. We should go through proper channel (Commanders in the unit). Anyone see/seeks MPs directly without going thru' proper channel will be CHARGE IMMEDIATELY.
With this kinda of FEAR and THREAT instilled in the servicemen who knows nothing about NS rules, procedures and regulations, who DARED to see their MPs for any real cases?
Till today, I am still unsure. Will soldiers be CHARGED if we see/seek MPs directly without going thru' proper channel first? Anyone knows? -
alot of backside gona be fried...if that NSF kena charge..Originally posted by wuming78:ppl are advised to seek MP as last resort. and they wont get charged for seeking MP. anyway i think even at tt time, if they realli went to see MP they wont get charged. the MP wil be alerted the first time. if the MP finds out the person got charged for seeing him wat wil he do?
there is nothing wrong with seeing the MP...at most u kena abit of harsh words while you are back in camp..
chain of command is break frequently..even in the senior command..
so there shld not be any double standard.. -
Originally posted by NathanG5:
arrrr..the problem now lies with you.. i got no problem at all thanz...
from my start of my 1st post in this thread..i never bash the commandos..
you NEVER.......
ive understand more then u about the culture of commandos..
you UNDERSTAND MORE? hahahahaha ok... if you are so sure... then... what can i say? anyway.. this just a forums..
i have lotsa frens who wear the red beret..i dont misinterprete others people post..that fact is someone die..some of guys treat it like dirt!!!
again and again!!! who treat it like dirt? SCREW THIS IN UR HEAD my friend... i would say that... its WRONG for the instructor behaviour or the way he conduted the course!
do u still remember the thread u post after the death of 2nd Sgt Hu? u justify the way of that instructor!!!
can i have DIFFERENT point of view from you? how i justify it... its manily my personal thinking... isit wrong? i notice that... anyone whom have DIFFERENT thinking or point of view from you... you will start all your argument and debate with him.... and if you wanna talk about sadist.... the way you behave down here.... hahahahaha its sadist as well
im still holding grudge with u about that...people SHLDNT DIE FROM TOUGH TRAINING!!!!
thanz for adding words for me.. thanz... again... READ THIS!!! I HAVE NEVER SAY ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE SHOULD DIE DURING A TRAINING!!! but.... if it was the tough training that caused his die... i have nothing to say .... but now.. its obvious that the indtsuctor have over do it! therefor... its only right for the instructor to hold full responsible on this issued... get this things clear!!!
1. die from tough training!!!
2. over do it and cause someone hurt or death!!!
these are two DIFFERENT ISSUED!!!
and once again i say...u are the one who have not been read others post..not me.. your wish -
aiyo.... from the start of the topic... you should know liao... anyone that go AGAINST or have different thinking as him... he will keep asking you this question 'SO YOU MEAN ITS RIGHT FOR 2SGT HU TO DIE LAH' .... AIYA.... his kids lah... dont care about what he wanna post lor... simple... if you free... then entertain him..... if not...Originally posted by lotus:Hi NDU,
Kam Sia if you are helping me...
I gave up in this debate already bcos some pple juz can't seems to know what I am saying when i am using simpe english....
keep on putting words in my mouth which I didn't say.
i go hide in my CD shelter cos I will receive arty bombardments soon....
enjoy your weekend... dont reply lor.... simple.... -
there are people in this world who keep insist that he never meant what he say..when the evidence is there..
too bad his thread have been deleted..if not he is gona swallow every single words he have said..
yea..im just a kid..u dun have to treat me seriously..
to u guys its just another life..sighz..pathetic...
hey its your wish too..the death its just an entertainment to u..
i will not stop bashing those who defend the sadist instructor.. certainly will not humor those who try to defend the instructor in a previous thread n quickly dismiss that he did..
if u change your mind abt the instructor now..im glad u have found your conscience..at least it is not buried 6 foot deep in the world of blind..