SAF needs reality check!!!
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Let's face facts here:-
What really is the SAF?
Ans: It's one GIANT Hollywood industry!
Why this recent tragedy with the Commandos?
Ans: The actors started to believe that Disneyland really does exist.
How can we avoid this in future?
Ans: Start playing the part!!! Go do some good. For goodness sake you want realism -> JOIN OIF! How much more realistic training can you get than this?
What else?
Ans: Either that or wake up to the fact that SAF is just one big show. No one suppose to die! They just act like soldiers!!! You suppose to play with multi million dollar simulators in air-con room, man! Get it?!!! -
well, too many things happen. now is time for some cleanup
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Realism is needed. People's sons are precious. what to do?
it will always be an issue.
In any case, this training has been around for donkey years. only now then Minister knows??? hard to belief though. -
I don't know how the SAF can change the CST without losing realism....it was quite different by the time I left already. The head-dunking exercise was the norm actually; it was part of POW training...so was the 'starvation phase'. The worst thing for me was the blind-folding part....made us leopard crawl thru' mud and all...I didn't mind the mud; just that some joker officer or specialist pushed my head down into the mud pool without any warning...looked like some Viet Cong prisoner afterwards...
Maybe if they did a more stringent selection of recruits for these more siong-types of vocation? I dunno...what do you guys think? -
Is there a need for POW training anyway? -
armies all over the world conduct this training.Originally posted by Parka: Is there a need for POW training anyway?
in fact in my opinion all soldiers should be given this training, albeit to different levels, esp commanders (OC and above). this is to prepare the soldiers mentally and psychologically for the kind of treatment they may get should they be caught in an offensive. -
Can this even be trained? My eyebrows raised.
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awareness and training.Originally posted by Parka: Can this even be trained? My eyebrows raised.
anyway there r certain skills tt can be trained, such as sere
and also, singapore is not the pioneer in such training. -
yah...like who's gonna be soft with u during wartime?
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SOLDIERS GO TO WAR!
That's their whole purpose. No two ways about it. Who's kidding who here?!!!
Now the NSF and reservists......they get confused in their first 2 to 2.5 years and then later one month a year.......
The 'Professionals' or regulars......these guys must be really really bonkers by now. Either that OR they are pulling a fast one - easy peasy day time job => sell insurance or do MLM at night.
It's no wonder they don't end up in counselling centers or Woodbridge! -
True. I did CST too, back in 2000, and even then, my company mates and I already thought it was really tame. In fact, at no point of time did I feel like I was a POW at all. The head dunking treatment was a standard and everyone received it. I never thought that it would be possible for anyone to die from it. Rather we all looked back and saw it as kinda fun. I still have fond memories of Staff Thambi and, of course, who can forget, Bala..Originally posted by Tango1:I don't know how the SAF can change the CST without losing realism....it was quite different by the time I left already. The head-dunking exercise was the norm actually; it was part of POW training...so was the 'starvation phase'. The worst thing for me was the blind-folding part....made us leopard crawl thru' mud and all...I didn't mind the mud; just that some joker officer or specialist pushed my head down into the mud pool without any warning...looked like some Viet Cong prisoner afterwards...
Maybe if they did a more stringent selection of recruits for these more siong-types of vocation? I dunno...what do you guys think?
A balance between realism and safety can never be achieved I think. When I was taiwan, we talked to our drivers who were actual combat fit marines. They told us that death was a part of their exercises. They have a saying that Exercises are the same as War. Being in a country that is always on the verge of fighting, that may hold true. But in Singapore, we are so used to peace that realism just have to take second place to safety.
I guess Tango is right. The SAF is becomming rather lax in selection for units. But then again, there are many different kinds of fitness. Physical, Field, Mental etc. Not all can be tested prior to selection. So, in the end, nothing will change.
Except for CST training I suppose. I think for the next batch, they will just be lectured on the kinds of torture they will receive if they are captured.. No actual physical training will take place.. -
I don't see how training can help. As if it's going to build up your ability to withstand torture.
In the end, it's going to be a mental thing.
Loyalty, that's it. -
think the army needs our support during this tough times....they did their best...we have to understand them. accidents do happen and we face it with heavy heart but we cant condemn a military organisation simply on tt. Armed forces is all about war and loosing lives....just that this happen wrong time at the wrong occasion??
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Well, whether it helps or not is rather subjective. Don't know how this training is held in other countries, but Singapore's CST? My platoon mates and I were making fun of the whole thing throughout.Originally posted by Parka: I don't see how training can help. As if it's going to build up your ability to withstand torture.
In the end, it's going to be a mental thing.
Loyalty, that's it.
"Comrade, why must you suffer like this, tell us what we want to know and you can get anything.. food, drink, girl, boy... your friend here, he told us what we wanted to know, and now he's enjoying himself. Playing with girls. You want to join him, or suffer still?"
- Actual speech by the instructor given to us while we were blindfolded and going through interrogation. The friend "playing with girls" was actually forced to stand out side in the hot sun... -
the attitude of NSF also have to take into consideration...
remember when u start pointing finger at others the other 3 fingers is pointing towards yourself -
Originally posted by greyskymorning:the attitude of NSF also have to take into consideration...
remember when u start pointing finger at others the other 3 fingers is pointing towards yourself Personally, there is nothing I hate more than the blame game.
In this case, SAF has no option. They have to play the game. And they have to play it well for the public. -
from today's papers
No need for 'torture' training
I was saddened to hear Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean reveal that unauthorised training caused the death of Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai.
I went through the same combat survival course about three years ago. What bothers all trainees is the last day of the course, when they are treated like prisoners of war (POW) and 'tortured' to simulate being captured by the enemy.
I went through many 'torture stations' such as the water treatment and did many humiliating things. I finished the course unhurt but some of my friends sustained injuries.
However, when I asked myself what I had learnt from the POW experience, the answer was: nothing.
I did not see how it could really simulate the torture that could be inflicted by an enemy in wartime. Nor did I think that the training would help me endure such treatment.
YONG KHANG WEI -
frankly i feel that, if the bugger refuses to say anything... he won't say anything...
no need for all these POW programme...
i dun think Lim Bo Seng went thru POW training rite -
The only reason I can think for the POW training is to pass time. What else?
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amazing, that SAF actually didn't cover it up! poor soldier became yet another statistic. -
Originally posted by boy in blues: amazing, that SAF actually didn't cover it up! poor soldier became yet another statistic. A bit amazing. But then if you remember, I think the news was leaked to the media before SAF could even react to covering it up.
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cannot makan ar
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da common thinkin of NSFs is tat "i'm only here for 2, 2 1/2 yrs. y shld i 'sacrifice' so much"Originally posted by greyskymorning:the attitude of NSF also have to take into consideration...
remember when u start pointing finger at others the other 3 fingers is pointing towards yourself
and i think tat most dun understand da reason 4 all these SERE trg
coz they think tat they will never b in such a situation
just like who wud have expected japan 2 invade sg
if unfortunately we r called upon 2 defend our country
and if unfortunately some of us r captured and subjected 2 tis kinda torture wat then r we 2 do?????
do we tell our captors "can u skip da water torture????? i',m afraid i'll die"
lets say soldier A and Soldier B r captured
soldier A has gone thru SERE trg while soldier B has not
who do u think will b more prepared both physically and mentally?????
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i m wondering anyone thought of the MEDIC on sense. there is a medic on cover, why nvr save him?Originally posted by 35MM Gunner:da common thinkin of NSFs is tat "i'm only here for 2, 2 1/2 yrs. y shld i 'sacrifice' so much"
and i think tat most dun understand da reason 4 all these SERE trg
coz they think tat they will never b in such a situation
just like who wud have expected japan 2 invade sg
if unfortunately we r called upon 2 defend our country
and if unfortunately some of us r captured and subjected 2 tis kinda torture wat then r we 2 do?????
do we tell our captors "can u skip da water torture????? i',m afraid i'll die"
lets say soldier A and Soldier B r captured
soldier A has gone thru SERE trg while soldier B has not
who do u think will b more prepared both physically and mentally????? -
it is always difficult 2 b da middle man
in tis case da SAF is da middle man caught bet. da soldiers' parents and our country
on they 1 hand they have 2 train our soldiers so tat they can best defend our country when called upon
on the other hand they have 2 keep them safe so tat they can return 2 their parents at the end of their 'tour'
if the instructors let up on trg in a way they r responsible if we cant defend our country well
if they push da soldiers 2 their limit they run da risk of risking da soldiers life