Lelong in 2nd hand weapons Mkt
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I dun think the British has made a mistake becos you will talking abt many countries making the same mistakes. I have compiled a list of countries that has mostly tropical rain forest namely from SEA & South America:Originally posted by akula:I feel that the Leopards are definitely a good potential. British made the mistake that tanks are not suitable here. am wondering if our SAF is making a similar mistake by thinking that heavy MBT has no place here. Tempest..... no one I know off ever seen them. do they exist in the first place. If they do exist means SAF do believe in them. All the more should try getting those Leopards. Apache can't be all the time around with the front guys.
Argentina-----TAM 30 tons
Venezuela----AMX-30 36 tons
Cambodia-----T-54/55 36 tons
Vietnam--------T-54/55 36 tons T-62 40 tons
Thailand-------Type69 37 tons M48A5 49 tons M60A3 53 tons
Malaysia-------PT-91 46 tons
Singapore-----Tempest 52 tons
As you can see from the list above, most countries from the regions I mentioned do not operate MBTmostly light tanks.
Even they operate them, they r generally below 40 tons. Those above 40 tons are also mostly small in number except for Vietnam(200 T-62s) & Thailand(175 M48s & 53 M60s) & maybe even SG.
The point is there is no example of a conventional warfare operating 40+ tons MBT in the past for us to gauge it's effectiveness in rain forest terrain. The lower the weight, the lower ground pressure which mean better cross country mobility but lesser firepower & armour protection. The opposite is say for the heavy tanks.
Therefore light tanks(below 25 tons), medium tanks(25-40 tons) & current crop of heavy tanks(40-60+ tons) , their effectiveness is everybody guess.
But as the region is getting more & more urbanised, it is certainly good to have some MBT with u.
As for whether there are any Tempests in the SAF, Yes,they have.
I know where they r & I have been there. -
Huh? Why? Is it classified to tell us?Originally posted by Typhoon:Singapore does not need a new MBT for the next 20 years at least. Tankees should know why. -
I sorry abt inaccuracy of the list MBT that I posted earliar, it was based on info from Jane's A&A 96-97 which was extremely inaccurate since that is quite a lot of changes for South America for the last few years, it seem that a lot of the phased out MBTs were going to there.
Here the updated list :
Brazil----Leopard1 42 tons M60A3 53 tons
Chile-----Leopard1 42 tons AMX30 36 tons
Ecuador-T-55 36 tons
Peru------T-55 36 tons T-62 40 tons T-72 42tons
Uruguay--T-55 36 tons
It seem that is quite a arms race in term MBT for the last few years in South America. -
YESOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:Huh? Why? Is it classified to tell us?
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doesn't brazil also have their homemade tank, the osario?Originally posted by gary1910:Brazil----Leopard1 42 tons M60A3 53 tons
Chile-----Leopard1 42 tons AMX30 36 tons
Ecuador-T-55 36 tons
Peru------T-55 36 tons T-62 40 tons T-72 42tons
Uruguay--T-55 36 tons -
Blockhead: "i am a Blockhead..... at least that's what my girlfriend keeps saying!"
wah lau, the lurve is there, man.... so do u think my wife calls me a spanish lurver? hee hee hee
how come you all change topic from tanks to MLC? sure we dun have anything above MLC60? how the heck we gonna get our 'stuff' over man? what if we lose the causeway?
|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "
wah lau, what are we waiting for? let's go get them before someone else beats us to it!!!
Typhoon : "Singapore does not need a new MBT for the next 20 years at least. Tankees should know why."
hee hee hee, i also know why... but i not Tankee.... shhhhh... cos we got Death Star hidden behind the moon rite?
seriously, why? Is it really so classified? ok lar... just hint hint lor.... is it better than PT91 or Leopard2? which country? US, Israel etc? Not russian i hope!?
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I don't think it ever went into production.Originally posted by IAF:doesn't brazil also have their homemade tank, the osario? -
Amigo,
wah lau, the lurve is there, man.... so do u think my wife calls me a spanish lurver? hee hee hee
Er... i dunno.. Does she?!
|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "
Talked to a Dutch guy once who used to drive Leopards during his service, and he said they rarely did it. He said there is a limit how deep and how far u can go with this, and that it can be 'dangerous'. I remember him saying that its dark, its wet (cos the tank leaks like a sieve) and if u have a engine problem, u are stuck.
seriously, why? Is it really so classified?
Well, there is the tempest, which is available on open sources. Let's just say anything else is not relevant to our discussion here and let it rest, can? -
Originally posted by Blockhead:
You r right, most this so called amphibious AFV must be taken wif a pinch of salt. Even our AI who have to do river crossing training using their M113s r scared stiff cos accident happened b4 even though with lots of preparation in the sense of ensuring seal & pumps r all ok .
|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "
Talked to a Dutch guy once who used to drive Leopards during his service, and he said they rarely did it. He said there is a limit how deep and how far u can go with this, and that it can be 'dangerous'. I remember him saying that its dark, its wet (cos the tank leaks like a sieve) and if u have a engine problem, u are stuck.[/b]
So a responsible commander will try to aviod it by having bridges etc to cross river during operation. It just simply too risky. -
The Leopard1/2 tanks, AMX-30 tanks and the Russian tanks all have the capability to fold to a depth of 4 metres or more. However, the way they cross are slightly different. The Russian would deploy snorkels, not very different from those of the submarines to draw air into the tank compartment and for the engine, and release exhause fumes. The German and the French use large tubes for the tank commanders to crawl on top to navigate as well as to draw air into the tank, somewhat like a conning tower.Originally posted by gary1910:You r right, most this so called amphibious AFV must be taken wif a pinch of salt. Even our AI who have to do river crossing training using their M113s r scared stiff cos accident happened b4 even though with lots of preparation in the sense of ensuring seal & pumps r all ok .
So a responsible commander will try to aviod it by having bridges etc to cross river during operation. It just simply too risky.
Anyway, I wouldn't like to be one of the people inside a fully submerged tank.
Back to the topic about Leo2A6, I still think it is quite an impossible ask to get them. I can think of how SAF would justify the implications, both militarily and politically to acquire a Leo2A6. In any case, if SAF is to get an MBT, I would rather see Lelerc or a dieted Mekarva Baz 3 with some Mekarva 4 features.
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Your wish may come true sooner than expected.
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Blockhead: Well, there is the tempest, which is available on open sources. Let's just say anything else is not relevant to our discussion here and let it rest, can?
wah... so secretive.. ok lor... i orso dun want to get into trouble...
OEI! TO YOU ALL WHO ARE READING OUR POSTS, WE DUN KNOW ANYTHING AND WE DIN'T SAY NOTHIN'!!!!
Typhoon : Your wish may come true sooner than expected.
oei typhoon... careful hor... scarly got people come and ask u to "lim kopi"... just kidding hor...
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Originally posted by Typhoon:Singapore does not need a new MBT for the next 20 years at least. Tankees should know why.
hahaha True True! Singapore sure have lots of hidden equipments 
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Thanks for the correction.Originally posted by gary1910:I sorry abt inaccuracy of the list MBT that I posted earliar, it was based on info from Jane's A&A 96-97 which was extremely inaccurate since that is quite a lot of changes for South America for the last few years, it seem that a lot of the phased out MBTs were going to there.
Here the updated list :
Brazil----Leopard1 42 tons M60A3 53 tons
Chile-----Leopard1 42 tons AMX30 36 tons
Ecuador-T-55 36 tons
Peru------T-55 36 tons T-62 40 tons T-72 42tons
Uruguay--T-55 36 tons
It seem that is quite a arms race in term MBT for the last few years in South America.
Indeed that more tropical countries are taking heavy MBT more seriously. But not true also that heavy tanks are not tested in the tropical. A good example is the China, vietnam war in 1979. Chinese moved heavy armoured units over the thought impassable jungle valley of pan she gu to surprise Lang Son. Surprising the defenders with tanks appearing out of the jungle. Lang Son falls in 2 to 3 days under heavy armoured assault.
In fact China captures (Lang Son, Lao Cai, ha Giang, Cao Bang, Dong Ke, That Ke, and Mon Cai) in just a short span of 20+ days.
Though chinese not quite win over the vietnamese.
It is a great show of armour capabilities in the tropicals.
http://www.china-defense.com/history/sino-vn_1/sino-vn_1-1.html
Picture on the first page shows that heavy armour is used in vietnam when china fought vietnam.
China had T-62s (41 ton) and T54/55 (37 ton) respectively, so did the vietnamese then. It is not whether the weapon is useful in tropical or not. It is a matter of who and how to use them.
Certainly glad to hear we do have tempest. but should be very old by now right? -
The Tempest is old news lah. Most have already been retired and put into storage underground.
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What replace the tempest then? Apache?
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I think I know what u r talking abt, but I just feel that it is not the best MBT around especially in term of power/weight ratio, speed & maybe even in acceleration.Originally posted by Typhoon:The Tempest is old news lah. Most have already been retired and put into storage underground.
But one good thing abt it is that it will be almost totally unknown in term of numbers & capability to the world if asset is from this good friend of ours. -
This "rumour" has already been floating around even in this forum, so I guess you guys need to be careful not to add more information to it accidentally. BTW, I think the Centurions chassis could be converted into AVLB or SP Arty platforms. Our good friend even converted some into armoured personal carriers and call them Pumas.Originally posted by gary1910:I think I know what u r talking abt, but I just feel that it is not the best MBT around especially in term of power/weight ratio, speed & maybe even in acceleration.
But one good thing abt it is that it will be almost totally unknown in term of numbers & capability to the world if asset is from this good friend of ours.
BTW, SAF always seems to get second hand MBTs. I hope the SM1 light tank replacement will be a totally new design with the latest sights (IR and NV), advanced 105mm gun or low recoil 120mm and perhaps even active protection suites like the IR and Laser warners and jammers. The new replacement should be able to perform SM1 traditional roles plus knock out some of the latest East European tanks (No rewards for guessing what I am getting at) -
What do you know? Why don't you say it?Originally posted by Typhoon:Your wish may come true sooner than expected. -
Because I want to live a long natural life.
If you are really that desperate, ask any fren from Armour as long as he's not an officer (they have been briefed on what not to say). That person need not be a regular, because from what I hear NSFs also operate them.
Start with an indirect line of questioning like "Why is it when we go to Israel must get special passport?" If he is in the know he will answer yes. Ask him how he knows and then watch him squirm.
Do not go around repeating this in case you run into ISD or a Malay(sian). -
Actually I think most here would know what this tank is by looking at the comments made by some of the posters on the thread. Pay attention to POOR POWER-TO-WEIGHT RATIO and WEIGHT and you should be able to find the answer.
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Typhoon is right. We have something that is so good that i think will spark fear and outrage in the regional countries when it is finally announced. Its also a beauty!I wonder why we don't declare officially our MBTs when the Malaysians acquire some already, i mean at least the older Tempests. Because Singapore usually will announce or declare to have certain equiptment after the neighbours have gotten theirs. This is done as to not start an arms race.
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Originally posted by Typhoon:
So how can this 'rumor' be a SM1 replacement? For one thing, it won't be able to go to as many places as the SM1. Also, sometimes direct fire support happens from higher ground. I wonder if this 'rumor' can depress as well as SM1?
Actually I think most here would know what this tank is by looking at the comments made by some of the posters on the thread. Pay attention to [b]POOR POWER-TO-WEIGHT RATIO and WEIGHT and you should be able to find the answer.
[/b]
But this 'rumor' is a great MBT! Just not a right fit in the ABG though I suspect? -
I believe SM1 replacement will most probably be a having the same weight range and dimension as our Bionix and Primus.
That is the weight must be lower than 30 tons and width of max 3m so to be crossed our class 30 bridges.
As for tempest replacement, I hope that it will not be those 60+ tons monsters!
CHARGE!!!
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actually, i am very curious as to how the MBTs will fit into our Orbat, the tempests not yet retired lah..my friend say he just saw their live firing 2 years back..also i thot the mbts from our good friend are in thailand not taiwan.