'White horse' classification for NSmen existed prior to 200
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I am not saying that all WHs r not capable,just saying that they have a unfair advantage over the son of the ordinary folks.Originally posted by the Bear:could be... but the son is a nice dude
My experience with the WH was ok, nice rich dude, friendly but quite low profile, timid in a way ,not the type that try to outshine others or display leader qualities so to get into OCS.(those eventually get to OCS do so)
Physically average in all sense, but my thought will be most probably get into SISPEC if he is the son of ordinary folk. -
nope i don't think so, as hinted in my post. In fact, i don't think the then CDF had to even open his mouth...it was like already understood'd and pre-empted by his underlingsOriginally posted by gary1910:Do you really think that he was posted to OCS & later became a Signal officer has nothing to do with any "divine" help?
This is maybe what's the father wished for like father like son. -
This was a posting from another forum, the contributor claimed to be a WH & in WH coy during his BMT:
Coming from a white horse company in 1987 during my BMT , same company with son of Tony Tan and few others MP sons. I can tell you the following treatments that happened in my company:
i) My company was always the last to fall in.
ii) When the son of Tony Tan fainted in a SOC run, the MO rushed down to the field with a helicopter flying in less than 1/2 hour time. Even though ,he was later found to be alright. My friend from another company who fainted was given 3 extra duties during CNY.
iii)Everyone in my company who reported sick will get at least a Attn B. When I "keng" diarrhea, I was given attn C with no further examination but my ex-college mate from another company was poked in the ass. Strangely, even after I was posted out of my BMT, I never failed to get an MC from the unit MO. I was on 1 day MC per month on average even most of times I just reported minor ailments.
iv) I noticed our company were always the last to goto the cookhouse and the dishes served were always much better than those served earlier on. Sometimes ,we even have sweet & sour prawn and deserts during days when the VIPs decided to drop in and visit their sons.
v)Early bookout and last to book in.
vi) A new PC who gave our company defaulter parade was given 21 extra duties.
vii) There were better treatments we enjoyed that I got no time to list. One funny incident when I could not march in step, I was pulled out of the marching contingent by my RSM. After that , I will just sit under the shade and watched the rest marched under the hot sun. -
Originally posted by gary1910:
u sure or not !
[b]I am not saying that all WHs r not capable,just saying that they have a unfair advantage over the son of the ordinary folks.[b]
years ago, there was a bo-bo shooter recruit-Lee who became Brigadier General of the SAF !
Last heard that his marksmanship didn't improve much as he prefer to shot at the wooden planks than the range targets (as reported by the local media).
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Well, I said that becos I cannot know all the WHs to even said all of them to be lousy. Just like you , you onli know one of them or maybe a few, could you make a statement for all of them!!Originally posted by Gun:u sure or not !
years ago, there was a bo-bo shooter recruit-Lee who became Brigadier General of the SAF !
Last heard that his marksmanship didn't improve much as he prefer to shot at the wooden planks than the range targets (as reported by the local media). -
however, the one or two bad examples we knew shoots holes in the statements that Cedric Foo idiot uttered...
again i say, what he stated was a pack of vile lies...Originally posted by gary1910:Well, I said that becos I cannot know all the WHs to even said all of them to be lousy. Just like you , you onli know one of them or maybe a few, could you make a statement for all of them!! -
So far, I haven't seen a single positive response to cedric foo's reply.
even on official media, channel newsasia, all nsmen interviewed commented that they believed that WH was given WH classification to get special privileges. (besides one guy who got WH classfication who doesn't believe he got special treatment, though channlnewsasia also added that this particular WH subsequently got posted to clerical duties due to back injury, kinda removes somecredibility from his words about getting no preferential treatment)
and lol, who is cedric foo trying to kid. . . i'm in secondary school and theres already the word going around that next time when we go ns, pray we got Minister son in our platoon, then shiok liao. haha. .. , and repeat, this is occuring as i am only in secondary school, haven't even gone ns or anything near it yet
it would do the government well to show some concrete evidence to convince singaporeans the WH isn't what we see it to be. . . -
What I don't understand is that how can there be equal treatment when they are made known to be "white horses"?
If fair treatment is what they emphasize and not "special previledges" then the more they should keep their identities a secret!
In my opinion,This "WH" thing is really nonsensical. -
exactly...
that's why there is this general consensus that Cedric Foo is telling a pack of liesOriginally posted by makeorbreak:What I don't understand is that how can there be equal treatment when they are made known to be "white horses"?
If fair treatment is what they emphasize and not "special previledges" then the more they should keep their identities a secret!
In my opinion,This "WH" thing is really nonsensical. -
i still maintain tt he is telling the truth in one sense - mabbe the system realli does not recognise WH and endow them wif privileges.
but who wans to offend these VIK (veri impt kids) and kanna backside or hanta kaki? so ppl will naturally become more sheepish ard them. o cos there will be ppl who bochap. but jus one person giving them benefits will be enuff to start rumours.
but i oso maintain wat he said was damn funny.
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My 5cent take on WH.
During my time in a combat unit, a WH (son of a prominant Minister) officer fresh from OCS got posted to my unit as a PC of a rifle platoon.
While on a major exercise where our Bn played the enemy, my section was placed under his charge with his platoon to ambush the opFor amphibious landings. After 6hrs or so of waiting, the opFor changed plans and landed elsewhere. They fought through land to our emplacements and 2Lt WH was no where to be seen commanding the men! In the end, after the fighting dies down, he reappears, and ask my section and some of his platoon to surrender to the enemy!
Soon after, my unit was to go to Ex Lancer for training and 2Lt WH wasn't going with his platoon! After we came back from Lancer, he was reassigned to S1.
judge for yourself people.
That aside, if anyone can name a WH who is in a combat role in 1th Cdo or NDU, I will concede that WH doesn't have preferential treatment. -
More revealing information of who are (or were) classified as 'White Horse' :
Minister tells more about 'white horses'
By Goh Chin Lian
PEOPLE in Internet chatrooms did not believe him, nor did some writers to The Straits Times Forum page.
They argued that contrary to what Minister of State (Defence) Cedric Foo told Parliament last week, that 'white horses' did not get special treatment during national service, the opposite was true.
Yesterday, the minister gathered reporters at the Defence Ministry headquarters in Gombak Drive to elaborate further on who the 'white horses' were and what sort of treatment they were given.
He revealed that the list included sons of current and former Members of Parliament and Nominated MPs, senior officials - lieutenant-colonels upwards, deputy assistant commissioners in the Police and Civil Defence and civil servants from Superscale Grade H onwards - and even doctors.
Also included were sons of 'a very big group' of others who earned at least $9,500 a month, he said.
Knowing who these influential people were allowed the Singapore Armed Forces to prevent them from abusing the system.
This means those classified by a doctor as medically unfit had to also get the nod from the commanding officer of the medical classification centre, an extra step not required of non-white horse servicemen.
Even with the officer's approval, cushy office jobs in Mindef were out for these full-time servicemen, who had to be sent down to the ground units instead, he said.
The fit ones would also have to rough it out in combat positions on the ground, as part of the checks introduced in the late 1970s when many boys preferred clerical and other 'softer' positions. .
But if the system was working so well, why did the SAF abandon it three years ago?
For one, Mr Foo said, today's servicemen aim higher because they know employers value those who have been officers or section commanders.
Another reason is that Singaporeans have come to accept that the SAF treats its servicemen fairly, so there was no need to spend the money now on monitoring white horses, he said, without saying how much it had cost.
He told reporters he had wanted to expand on his reply to Non-Constituency MP Steve Chia in Parliament but did not get the chance as there were no follow-up questions.
When contacted, Mr Chia said it was difficult for some Singaporeans to believe that white horses were treated no differently from others.
Some Singaporeans have said they had witnessed special treatment for white horses and their platoon mates, who would get more frequent canteen breaks, better food and later wake-up hours.
They are wrong, said Mr Foo. 'You see something as favouritism which may not be the case, and the white horse system was to address such possible misperception.'
To those who 'nitpick about how many canteen breaks one platoon gets', he said the platoon could have earned the rewards because of the hard work of its men.
Instructors could also be at fault, he said. 'Like anywhere in society, there will be some people who are more prone to bootlicking, but let me say categorically that it is not the policy in the SAF.'
He stood by his statement that there was no special treatment, and no one had claimed that white horses had used their influence to get exempted from NS or to downgrade their medical classification.
'If you hear of a case like that, please let me know,' he said.
Straits Times, 19 November 2003
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,220805,00.html? -
A serious pack of crap.
This is something my dad told me. He was in ns during the 70s (right after Israeli instructors era) and he was in an Arty unit. There used to be a young officer lee who would always lim kopi with colonels at canteen.
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If there's no separation, there'll be no discrimination for all will be in the same category.
That's what I feel strongly. Why waste resources to track this selected group of people? Doesn't MINDEF trust its own system? Why must there be a separate 'route' for these selected group? The more Mr. Foo explains, the murkier it will get.
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i was thinking th esame also.....why can't everyone get the same treatment instead of classifiy between wh n us?Originally posted by 12qwaszx:If there's no separation, there'll be no discrimination for all will be in the same category.
That's what I feel strongly. Why waste resources to track this selected group of people? Doesn't MINDEF trust its own system? Why must there be a separate 'route' for these selected group? The more Mr. Foo explains, the murkier it will get. -
The statements made by the minister should sound right - if posted on www.talkingcock.com website un-edited. That's my impression when I first read it. Why the classification?Originally posted by cavsg:SINGAPORE : Minister of State for Defence Cedric Foo said the Singapore Armed Forces had a 'white horse' classification for NSmen prior to year 2000.
He said the term was used to identify sons of influential persons to ensure such enlistees were not given preferential treatment.
Mr Foo was replying to a question in Parliament on Tuesday by Nominated MP Steve Chia.
Mr Chia asked if there was such a classification and, if so, who qualifies to be classified as a 'white horse' and what privileges are accorded to them.
Mr Foo said: "All NSmen are treated equally and are deployed in vocations and units based on SAF operational requirements, their medical classification, and their academic and military performance. No NSmen has been accorded special privileges.
"Prior to year 2000, the term 'white horse' was used to identify sons of influential persons to ensure such enlistees were not given preferential treatment.
"And their medical classification and vocation assignments are scrupulously fair...since 2000, the SAF does not have a 'white horse' classification for NSmen." - CNA
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/56686/1/.html -
Now that our well-paid minister has dug his own hole and made himself look a fool in the process, now he blames "bootlickers" for
I wonder how do the junior specialists and officers in charge of these WHs feel about being called "bootlickers", for taking extra care with these human equivalents of porcelain jars, considering the consequences of having one of these "porcelain jars" get damaged in training, compared with the rest of us cheap plastic mugs.
I don't blame these junior commanders for twisting around a "well-meaning" policy (if thats what it is - I have my doubts), I blame the idiots who instituted and carried on this policy for a) not thinking through it properly in the first place and b) not reviewing this policy through the years through careful monitoring to check if unforseen circumstances like what we've seen have cropped up.
Well done, we pay in gold, yet we STILL get monkeys
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Minister tells more about 'white horses'
By Goh Chin Lian
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,220805-1069279140,00.html?
PEOPLE in Internet chatrooms did not believe him, nor did some writers to The Straits Times Forum page.
They argued that contrary to what Minister of State (Defence) Cedric Foo told Parliament last week, that 'white horses' did not get special treatment during national service, the opposite was true.
Yesterday, the minister gathered reporters at the Defence Ministry headquarters in Gombak Drive to elaborate further on who the 'white horses' were and what sort of treatment they were given.
He revealed that the list included sons of current and former Members of Parliament and Nominated MPs, senior officials - lieutenant-colonels upwards, deputy assistant commissioners in the Police and Civil Defence and civil servants from Superscale Grade H onwards - and even doctors.
Also included were sons of 'a very big group' of others who earned at least $9,500 a month, he said.
Knowing who these influential people were allowed the Singapore Armed Forces to prevent them from abusing the system.
This means those classified by a doctor as medically unfit had to also get the nod from the commanding officer of the medical classification centre, an extra step not required of non-white horse servicemen.
Even with the officer's approval, cushy office jobs in Mindef were out for these full-time servicemen, who had to be sent down to the ground units instead, he said.
The fit ones would also have to rough it out in combat positions on the ground, as part of the checks introduced in the late 1970s when many boys preferred clerical and other 'softer' positions.
But if the system was working so well, why did the SAF abandon it three years ago?
For one, Mr Foo said, today's servicemen aim higher because they know employers value those who have been officers or section commanders.
Another reason is that Singaporeans have come to accept that the SAF treats its servicemen fairly, so there was no need to spend the money now on monitoring white horses, he said, without saying how much it had cost.
He told reporters he had wanted to expand on his reply to Non-Constituency MP Steve Chia in Parliament but did not get the chance as there were no follow-up questions.
When contacted, Mr Chia said it was difficult for some Singaporeans to believe that white horses were treated no differently from others.
Some Singaporeans have said they had witnessed special treatment for white horses and their platoon mates, who would get more frequent canteen breaks, better food and later wake-up hours.
They are wrong, said Mr Foo. 'You see something as favouritism which may not be the case, and the white horse system was to address such possible misperception.'
To those who 'nitpick about how many canteen breaks one platoon gets', he said the platoon could have earned the rewards because of the hard work of its men.
Instructors could also be at fault, he said. 'Like anywhere in society, there will be some people who are more prone to bootlicking, but let me say categorically that it is not the policy in the SAF.'
He stood by his statement that there was no special treatment, and no one had claimed that white horses had used their influence to get exempted from NS or to downgrade their medical classification.
'If you hear of a case like that, please let me know,' he said. -
Letters in the Straits Times Forum page on Tues, Nov 18 2003 on the WH issue.
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Do 'white horses' get special privileges?
YES
I READ with interest the article, 'No 'white horse' label in NS since 2000' (ST, Nov 12). The revelation of the 'white horse' classification comes as no surprise to Singaporeans who had served or worked in the armed forces, as it was an open secret, whether official or not.
What is disturbing is the reply from Minister of State for Defence Cedric Foo, who claimed that the classification was to 'ensure that they (the white horses) were not given special privileges'.
This is an absurd and contradictory statement. The mere existence of this classification would have sounded warning bells to the camp commanders and officers to take extra care of the particular 'white horse' soldier.
I was enlisted for NS in 1994. My platoon mates and I were at first unaware that there was a 'white horse' among us.
Therefore, we were surprised at the special privileges accorded us, ranging from more frequent canteen breaks to later wake-up hours and, sometimes, better food servings. It was only at the passing-out parade that the truth dawned on us.
This issue is of particular concern because some of the ministers and influential Singaporeans' sons are about the age to be called up for national service. It is interesting to know how this group will be treated, even without the official 'white horse' classification.
YAN DAH WEA
I SAW for myself the different treatment extended to 'white horses'. During my Basic Military Training, my platoon was just below the Jaguar platoon, which had two 'white horses' - one the son of a minister; the other, the son of a lieutenant-colonel.
During the four months, I noted at least three very significant differences:
Once, while doing physical training in the field, we were the first to arrive. An hour later, Jaguar platoon arrived but, after less than an hour, the trainees went back. When we got back, they were already having their canteen break.
My platoon was given only about three canteen breaks in all. However, Jaguar platoon was seen in the canteen more than 15 times.
On Saturdays, we would march out to the jetty. In the case of Jaguar platoon, the trainees were taken to the jetty in a three-tonner.
After completing my BMT, I was sent for further training where I met another 'white horse', the son of a Member of Parliament.
The training was supposed to be very tough. However, as a 'white horse' was among us, the training turned out to be one of the slackest.
Dr Warren Lee (Sembawang GRC), who is a member of the Government Parliamentary Committee for Defence, said he could attest to the fact that 'white horses' didn't get an easier time in the army.
Dr Lee was probably one of the lucky ones who were grouped with the 'white horses' and the privileges were extended to him. One for all, all for one. You can't have the 'white horse' sitting on the bench while the rest of the platoon are doing exercises, right?
KENNY LIM CHIN LIANG
I ATTENDED my friend's passing-out parade not long ago. After the parade, everyone queued up to take the ferry from Pulau Tekong to the mainland.
We queued for 45 minutes to an hour but were still not anywhere near to boarding the ferry.
However, I saw the base commander usher a recruit and his father to a ferry without their having to queue. Sergeants supervising the boarding kept asking the crowd to make way for them to pass.
JEFFREY LIM WEI SENG
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NO
HAVING served national service in the army for the past 15 years, I am pleased to learn that Mindef has removed the 'white horse' classification to correct a misconception and ensure an egalitarian army.
I can attest to the fact that no 'white horse' (there was one in my platoon) was accorded preferential treatment.
As Mindef's act of singling out somebody to ensure that he was not given preferential treatment appears self-contradictory, the removal of the classification is a step in the right direction.
FRANKIE WONG CHEE KIN -
I think this Foo better be in a GRC for the next election, otherwise....
Maybe not , his presence may even affect the whole team.......
Poor fella to be scapegoat for policy created by "others" even b4 he got out of U!
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Prior to OCT Li arriving at 'B' Coy of SAFTI 'OCS' Wing, there was a particular LTA who behaved like a real 'hard ass' on his platoon of Officer Cadets.
There were punishing drills with full packs before lunch, in the hot noon sun at SAFTI, then there were the frequent punishing 'Change Parade' at all times of the day and night.
When this batch of OCT moved on, there was a short lull at 'B' Coy, and then OCT Li and his batch moved in.
The same LTA continued with 'B' Coy, but his behaviour was examplary, and he was quiet as a 'church mouse'.
While others were trained to be SAF Officers, OCT Li was supposedly a 'Super WH' and was being trained to be a General - as his role in all OCS exercises were from a 'Helicopter' perspective.
When every OCS trainee had to take on roles, and execute mission plans in Full Combat Gear, attacking and clearing enemy emplacements, and carrying 'casualties' during evacuation phase, the 'SUPER WH' OCT Li was absorbing the entire exercise in Belt and 'Soft Cap'.
Some OCT with 'WH' and 'Super WH' labels are already earmarked to be in Senior Command or Generals - befitting their upbringing; while those without 'WH' will suffice to be cannon fodders.
It is hardly believeable that such 'WH' policy has been dropped.
It smacks of the Class System practised in UK, where the Upper Class will normally be Officers, and the Lower Class will be 'Cannon Fodders'. -
wow...
Looks like Steve Chia's question has made a few pple red-faced! But it is exactly why we need people to ask questions.... Way to go Steve Chia!!! Hopefully,this will lead to some people being aware that they can't run riot with the system, and this will mean positive changes....
I have never agreed with the WH rule, and i seriously think it jeopardizes the quality of our forces and how people view the SAF, which is just as vital as our fighting ability. As far as i am concerned, Mr Foo should just come out and admit what it was really for and explain why it was not taken out earlier (if indeed it has been) and provide solid proof that it does not happen today. What Mindef should not do is to sweep everything under the carpet and pretend it will all go away, and take the well-worn route of "It's true because i said so" routine.
I would think even if they apologise, the public might forgive them..... but, the Singapore government apologise? Yeah, right.... -
I wonder what's the percentage of WH who are made Generals or Admirals hoh? Anyone know? I hope its not 100%....
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Bruddas in dis thread, our Void Deck crew took the liberty of taking some of ur stories about the White Horse to erect a White Horse stable at http://www.thevoiddeck.org/trans/trans_board.htm
... since the fool asked to hear, we let him hear lor ... thanks to bruddas, if got more "stories" carry on posting here, our crew will collect the "stories" to feed our precious White Horse ..
got some time can also pop over to main site and whack the horse whisperer, mr fool himself in our whack a dood game ...
laterz and chill out -
I have a dream....
Cedric Foo has admited that there are occasions in which WH are / were given special previleges. So what is he going to do about those officers / specs who are at fault (doing bootlicking)? I would demand that those specs and officers be charged. With so many NSmen witnessing bootlicking, it shouldn't be hard for the bootlickers be found guilty. Dreaming on.... -
Somebody wrote about seeing a marking on the MO screen that indicates a WH. This is true. The marking is a white chess horse.