Stealth warships to form core of Singapore navy
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ohhh shit!!! i forgot the frigates are replacing our MGBs. of course we still need those gabriels for accurate pointblank range plinking, they're very impt there still. agree wholeheartedly on that. the MGBs' small size and agility make them great for hiding between big merchant ships and ambushing enemies too.
i was talking mainly on the open-ocean arena, and admittedly concentrating on harpoon-bashing at that. but i really doubt harpoon can be considered a cutting-edge missile anymore. if as u said our as-good-as-invisible frigates shot first, the harpoon will get shot down easily by his CIWS and the enemy will know he's being hunted and the general direction of our ship.
u have a point though on how come many other navies all use harpoon. u win here...maybe coz its reliable and proven and commonly used? i dunno...
basically my pt was that harpoon is getting overtaken by new missiles, and to have an advantage the RSN should buy a new-tech faster missile. i think whats impt is not strictly whether an antiship missile is supersonic or not, but that it is fast and survivable enough to beat a warship's self defense systems and kill it. harpoon is not. if exocet 3 which goes at almost double harpoon's speed (mach0.5 vs 0.9) is good enough lets use it. thats what ure saying rite.
kinda noe more abt brahmos and sunburn... first time ive heard of exocet 3, so was trying to promote the first two a bit haha. i'll go check exocet 3 out yeah? -
Just a thought, I once read that the Fearless class PV was supposed to be 6 ASW ships & 6 Anti-ship wif Gabriel missiles, when they were commissioned only 6 r ASW & the other armed wif guns.Originally posted by foxtrout8:2) U had stated that our Frigates are for power projections and they need 4 legged missiles. I believe u had missed the importance of wire guilded missile on our the frigates which are suspose to replace our MGBs. If our MGBs had been replaced by the Frigates and if the Frigate aint armed with wire guided missiles , who will do the close range cum very precise engagement?
Maybe becos they plan to transfer the launchers to the 6 PVs after they have decomissioned the MGBs to save cost. -
You are right - I also read that 6 (actually now 5, given one had an accident) are anti-ship PVs. They are fitted for Gabriel II. I think RSN still have sufficient launchers, at least 18 (3 launchers per ships when they replaced those with 4 Harpoons).Originally posted by gary1910:Just a thought, I once read that the Fearless class PV was supposed to be 6 ASW ships & 6 Anti-ship wif Gabriel missiles, when they were commissioned only 6 r ASW & the other armed wif guns.
Maybe becos they plan to transfer the launchers to the 6 PVs after they have decomissioned the MGBs to save cost. -
Wasn't the one lost in the accident an anti-sub PV?
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Yesh , that one is an Anti-sub version.Originally posted by eurofighter:Wasn't the one lost in the accident an anti-sub PV? -
I doubt the existence of such confriguration. Firstly Mindef nv breath a word abt such intergration and there are no photo susgesting it's existence. Even if there are such confrIguration available, we still have to consider arming our Deltas with wire guided missiles.Originally posted by Joe Black:You are right - I also read that 6 (actually now 5, given one had an accident) are anti-ship PVs. They are fitted for Gabriel II. I think RSN still have sufficient launchers, at least 18 (3 launchers per ships when they replaced those with 4 Harpoons).
U see , if our Deltas aint armed with precision wire guided missiles , she will face problems of which she can detect enemy vessels approaching however unable to engage due to the constraints posed by the surrounding environment. Imagine if 2 enemy vessels will to be posing threat in the northern end of the Malacca straits and due to the crowded environment of the strait , the Deltas cant engage the enemy with her main Harpoon SSM. So now , are we going to wait for PVs to arrive or wait for the enemy vessel to strike?
For our Delta Frigate to be a all roundedcombatant , we must equipped her with the different classes of weaponaries for different classes of engagement. It will certainly explain why the Israeli DF is arming her Saar5 Corvette with the Harpoon and the Gabriel SSMs eventhough that ship is very obvious a blue water combatant. -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
IMHO, thats where the naval helicopter will come in. Armed with 2 penguin or sea skua missiles, it will be able to disable or take out the enemy vessel. After all, one can hardy expect the gabriel to sink a large combantant
I doubt the existence of such confriguration. Firstly Mindef nv breath a word abt such intergration and there are no photo susgesting it's existence. Even if there are such confrIguration available, we still have to consider arming our Deltas with wire guided missiles.
U see , if our Deltas aint armed with precision wire guided missiles , she will face problems of which she can detect enemy vessels approaching however unable to engage due to the constraints posed by the surrounding environment. Imagine if 2 enemy vessels will to be posing threat in the northern end of the Malacca straits and due to the crowded environment of the strait , the Deltas cant engage the enemy with her main Harpoon SSM. So now , are we going to wait for PVs to arrive or wait for the enemy vessel to strike?
For our Delta Frigate to be a [b]all roundedcombatant , we must equipped her with the different classes of weaponaries for different classes of engagement. It will certainly explain why the Israeli DF is arming her Saar5 Corvette with the Harpoon and the Gabriel SSMs eventhough that ship is very obvious a blue water combatant.[/b] -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
I think our frigate better suited for much more rough sea like south china sea ,therefore it should be good enough in "current" configuration. As for coastal water around SG, a Gabriel armed PV should be much more suitable, dun you think?
I doubt the existence of such confriguration. Firstly Mindef nv breath a word abt such intergration and there are no photo susgesting it's existence. Even if there are such confrIguration available, we still have to consider arming our Deltas with wire guided missiles.
U see , if our Deltas aint armed with precision wire guided missiles , she will face problems of which she can detect enemy vessels approaching however unable to engage due to the constraints posed by the surrounding environment. Imagine if 2 enemy vessels will to be posing threat in the northern end of the Malacca straits and due to the crowded environment of the strait , the Deltas cant engage the enemy with her main Harpoon SSM. So now , are we going to wait for PVs to arrive or wait for the enemy vessel to strike?
For our Delta Frigate to be a [b]all roundedcombatant , we must equipped her with the different classes of weaponaries for different classes of engagement. It will certainly explain why the Israeli DF is arming her Saar5 Corvette with the Harpoon and the Gabriel SSMs eventhough that ship is very obvious a blue water combatant.[/b]
I think Mindef did not armed them with missiles so not be too alarming to our neighbours & will only armed them during a crisis.
Becos a 500 tonnes PV only armed wif gun is such a waste in my opinion, and I dun think Mindef is so stupid. As the matter of fact, it has almost twice the tonnage as compare wif the MGBs, there are a lot more room than the MGBs for more armament, if they r armed to their potential, I dun think you or I could even recognise it!
Anyway a SG naval task force include not just only the Frigate but other vessal like the corvettes ,PVs,MPA & maybe even the subs to compliment eachother during operation. So therefore your argument does not really hold water. -
http://mzak.webzdarma.cz/motory/microturbo/microturbo_motory.php
Anyone knows what engine is Brahmos using? -
ramjet, thats all i know...
what abt polyphem as a gabriel substitute/replacement?
its a 60km range IIR missile that has the option of fibreoptic guidance just like our spikes... the operator can fly the missile around crowded SLOCs and find and identify and hit the enemy ship. the ultimate IFF is the human eye, IMO.
20kg warhead is a bit small... but its so accurate (10cm CEP) the operator can aim it at some vital part of the ship (bridge, magazine) and disable it wif one or two shots... -
a good link:
http://www.global-defence.com/2001/MSpart4.html
YourFather, that was a great post!! where'd u get it from?
if its some forum, can recommend me? -
I
think our frigate better suited for much more rough sea like south china sea ,therefore it should be good enough in "current" configuration. As for coastal water around SG, a Gabriel armed PV should be much more suitable, dun you think?
No Gary , pardon mi but i dun think u get the idea.
U see ,u are right to say that our Frigate is build for blue water operations , but however havent u read my senario above? Imagine if our Frigate is patroling northern Malacca Strait and it detect enemy vessels among rows and rows of civilian ships. If our Frigates are not armed with wire guilded missile , she do not have the optimum weapon to nengage u know? So are u going to tell mi that the Delta will wait for the PVs to arrive and engage or wait for our enemy to engage?
Why do u think the Israelis armed their Saar5 with two different type of missiles ( Harpoon cum Gabriel )? For fun?I think Mindef did not armed them with missiles so not be too alarming to our neighbours & will only armed them during a crisis.
Do u know that the RMN have more Naval vessels than Singapore? Annoucing that we can arm 6 PVs with missile aint going to be hostile.Becos a 500 tonnes PV only armed wif gun is such a waste in my opinion, and I dun think Mindef is so stupid. As the matter of fact, it has almost twice the tonnage as compare wif the MGBs, there are a lot more room than the MGBs for more armament, if they r armed to their potential, I dun think you or I could even recognise it!
I did some search and i find out that there are rooms of the Gabriel however since the Mindef aint confirming , lets dun put so much bet. Anyway a SG naval task force include not just only the Frigate but other vessal like the corvettes ,PVs,MPA & maybe even the subs to compliment eachother during operation. So therefore your argument does not really hold water.
Wrong Gary. If u will to look at our navy orbat , u will like to see a defensive fleet and an offensive fleet. Bear in mind that when the MGB is being replace , that means that no ships will be carrying Gabriel. Even if the PVs are to carry Gabriel , u have to understand that PVs are brown to green water ships. Are u telling mi that when the Frigates is in blue water operation , the brown/green water ship follows and provide cover?
So the arguement is , the Frigates being the onli blue water fighting ship require wire guided missiles because she may require such engagment in the open. We mustnt put to much bet onto fleet support If all our vessels are blue water ships , i will buy that , but our vessels are varying. Imagine if our Deltas will to be send to the Arabian Gulf , are u saying that our PVs have to follow jus to provide that cover? Wat if in the Arabian Gulf , the Deltas require such engagement?
Why do u think that EAD is marketing her Polyphem to blue water navies? Why do u think that Israel is arming her Saar5 85m boat with two different class of weapon? -
U have a very good argument here , but even so torpedo armed helicopters nv deter Ships to be armed with torpedo. LOLOriginally posted by Matlaysia:IMHO, thats where the naval helicopter will come in. Armed with 2 penguin or sea skua missiles, it will be able to disable or take out the enemy vessel. After all, one can hardy expect the gabriel to sink a large combantant -
1)First thing first, our fleet was designed & meant to operate in the regional water .Originally posted by foxtrout8:I
Wrong Gary. If u will to look at our navy orbat , u will like to see a defensive fleet and an offensive fleet. Bear in mind that when the MGB is being replace , that means that no ships will be carrying Gabriel. Even if the PVs are to carry Gabriel , u have to understand that PVs are brown to green water ships. Are u telling mi that when the Frigates is in blue water operation , the brown/green water ship follows and provide cover?
So the arguement is , the Frigates being the onli blue water fighting ship require wire guided missiles because she may require such engagment in the open. We mustnt put to much bet onto fleet support If all our vessels are blue water ships , i will buy that , but our vessels are varying. Imagine if our Deltas will to be send to the Arabian Gulf , are u saying that our PVs have to follow jus to provide that cover? Wat if in the Arabian Gulf , the Deltas require such engagement?
Why do u think that EAD is marketing her Polyphem to blue water navies? Why do u think that Israel is arming her Saar5 85m boat with two different class of weapon?
2) There are the ASW PVs in our naval striking arm, therefore you said there are no PV is wrong.
3) Even if we would to send our Frigates to far off region as you said the Gulf region, it will not be alone but will be wif the US naval task force or other true blue navy, SG frigate could only be the supporting role. RSN will be stupid to send them to operation elsewhere w/o air cover or other true blue navy, agree?
4)There is much more than meet the eye for RSN, a good example is the PV, bigger & have twice the tonnage as compare wif our MGBs, yet only armed wif guns!!! It is not logical to build such big ship & yet only armed wif guns???
As the matter of fact, I believe they all could perform both ASW & antiship role at the same time, there r certainly enough room.
Therefore I would say that we dun have the true picture of RSN to even argue abt what should be armed or not.
Note:
Victory Class corvettes-600tons 62.4 x 8.5 x 3.1m
Fearless Class PV-500tons 55 x 8.6 x 2.4m
Seawolf MGB -254tons 44.9 x 7 x 2.3m
From here, the Fearless class is just slightly smaller than the Victory class corvettes. -
1)First thing first, our fleet was designed & meant to operate in the regional water .
Wrong Gary , SAF is pushing into becoming a expenditory force (check out JDW for more info).2) There are the ASW PVs in our naval striking arm, therefore you said there are no PV is wrong.
There are 12 PVs in the RSN. 6 for ASW , 6 for littoral patrols. When did i say that we dun have PVs? Check ur facts.3) Even if we would send our Frigates to off far region as you said the Gulf region, it will not be alone but will be wif the US naval task force or other true blue navy, SG frigate could only be the supporting role. RSN will be stupid to send them to operation elsewhere w/o air cover or other true blue navy, agree?
U havent think of the journey from Singapore to the Arabian Gulf? Is the USN there for us in the journey from Singapore to the Gulf? Or u want our PVs to follow from Singapore to the gulf? Look at our Endurance , that poor ship will be travelling all the way to Gulf without air cover. If our Delta is ready , i will lay my bet that the Deltas will be sent as escort ship.
The PVs and the Frigates are two different class of ships for two different class of operations. Pls dun have the idea of always having Frigates and PVs together as or in a single naval projection. Frigates are for blue water operations and PVs stay at most to green water operation.
I had already make myself clear that our Frigate have to be a all rounder inorder to perform her duty right. She must have the ability to engage enemy vessels at stand off distance as well as in close crowded environment. A Medium range SSM and a wire guided SSM is idea , it is like a primary weapon cum a side arm. Israel is a text book example for us , look at how they arm their 85m stealth ship.
Surface-to-surface : 8 Harpoon and 8 Gabriel
Surface-to-air : 2 vertical launch Barak launchers
Gun : one OTOBreda 76 mm gun or Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS
Torpedoes : 6 x 32 cell Mk 32 launchers for Mk 46 torpedoes -
1)First thing first, our fleet was designed & meant to operate in the regional water .
Wrong Gary , SAF is pushing into becoming a expenditory force (check out JDW for more info).2) There are the ASW PVs in our naval striking arm, therefore you said there are no PV is wrong.
There are 12 PVs in the RSN. 6 for ASW , 6 for littoral patrols. When did i say that we dun have PVs? Check ur facts.3) Even if we would send our Frigates to off far region as you said the Gulf region, it will not be alone but will be wif the US naval task force or other true blue navy, SG frigate could only be the supporting role. RSN will be stupid to send them to operation elsewhere w/o air cover or other true blue navy, agree?
U havent think of the journey from Singapore to the Arabian Gulf? Is the USN there for us in the journey from Singapore to the Gulf? Or u want our PVs to follow from Singapore to the gulf? Look at our Endurance , that poor ship will be travelling all the way to Gulf without air cover. If our Delta is ready , i will lay my bet that the Deltas will be sent as escort ship.
The PVs and the Frigates are two different class of ships for two different class of operations. Pls dun have the idea of always having Frigates and PVs together as or in a single naval projection. Frigates are for blue water operations and PVs stay at most to green water operation.
I had already make myself clear that our Frigate have to be a all rounder inorder to perform her duty right. She must have the ability to engage enemy vessels at stand off distance as well as in close crowded environment. A Medium range SSM and a wire guided SSM is idea , it is like a primary weapon cum a side arm. Israel is a text book example for us , look at how they arm their 85m stealth ship.
Surface-to-surface : 8 Harpoon and 8 Gabriel
Surface-to-air : 2 vertical launch Barak launchers
Gun : one OTOBreda 76 mm gun or Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS
Torpedoes : 6 x 32 cell Mk 32 launchers for Mk 46 torpedoes -
Wrong Gary , SAF is pushing into becoming a expenditory force (check out JDW for more info).
6 frigates even armed wif both type of misssle will not make RSN to become a expenditory force?!?
Just look at the PLA navy with their destroyers, frigate etc. everyone believe that they will not create problem over Spartly islands at this moment becos they simply dun have sufficient LR air cover to do so in SEA so to protect their fleet in SEA.There are 12 PVs in the RSN. 6 for ASW , 6 for littoral patrols. When did i say that we dun have PVs? Check ur facts
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Sorri, my mistake .I tot you was saying they is no PV in the 1st Flotilla, since they r, it re-enforce the notion that RSN suppose to operate in regional water only.U are being narrow minded again. U havent think of the journey from Singapore to the Arabian Gulf? Is the USN there for us in the journey from Singapore to the Gulf? Or u want our PVs to follow from Singapore to the gulf? Look at our Endurance , that poor ship will be travelling all the way to Gulf without air cover. If our Delta is ready , i will lay my bet that the Deltas will be sent as escort ship.
It is going thru peaceful waters, so no problem.If they are not ,RSN will certainly do something abt it. But could they by themselves I mean, even the frigates that were to armed to what you stated, there r still very vulnerable w/o air cover.
i.e RSN is not capable to operate w/o other True blue navy in far off region, simply becos RSN is not a true blue navy. -
6 frigates even armed wif both type of misssle will not make RSN to become a expenditory force?!?
Brudder , did i say that with 6 Frigates we are to be a expenditory force? NO. What i said was that SAF is to become an expenditory force.
Just look at the PLA navy with their destroyers, frigate etc. everyone believe that they will not create problem over Spartly islands at this moment becos they simply dun have sufficient LR air cover to do so in SEA so to protect their fleet in SEA.
There are steps to become an expenditory force , our first step was clearly shown when we annouce to the world our 4 Endurance Class LPD-like LST ( sad to call it so ). Then we show great in undersea warfare interest by collaborating with western countries on that research. Shortly after , we circumnavigate the globe and show off our LST's capability to the world on her journey. Then the world was shock again to know that we are currently building 6 Stealth Frigates. Now this thread was open because RSN wanted stealth warships are the core of her orbat in the future.
So u see , all i did said was that we are aiming to be an expenditory force , not trying to say that we are an expenditory force now. So u are wrong in ur previous statement on that RSN is design to operation in our region. If u look at our purchases are researches , it is not so much so.Sorri, my mistake .I tot you was saying they is no PV in the 1st Flotilla, since they r, it re-enforce the notion that RSN suppose to operate in regional water only
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Read above.It is going thru peaceful waters, so no problem.If they are not ,RSN will certainly do something abt it. But could they by themselves I mean, even the frigates that were to armed to what you stated, there r still very vulnerable w/o air cover.
On dealing with surface threats , i believe we currently have the capability to put up a fight with most of the navies in our region ( up to Australia but certainly not India in the Indian Ocean or China near their Naval heartland ). In the future with more advance combatant , we can project our force confidently further from Singapore.
I agree that we need aircover , with aircover ( which is a bonus ) we can be more confident on our victory. I believe in the future with more and better vessels , we might be independent of that ( who knows ). -
So u see , all i did said was that we are aiming to be an expenditory force , not trying to say that we are an expenditory force now. So u are wrong in ur previous statement on that RSN is design to operation in our region. If u look at our purchases are researches , it is not so much so.
An expenditory force for the region ? Yes.
Over ocean expenditory forces? No
Do you noe what it take to have that, at least 2-3 destroyers, 4 Frigates,2 LPDs, 2-3 submarines & at the minimum at least one A/C carrier wif maybe 1-2 sqn of fighters, reccon a/c, rescue helos,& Awacs for minimum air support. That is only the fighting vessals, you still need the support ships, like the Hospital ship, repair ship, the tugboat, oil tankers, stores & ammo ship etc.
All the above is just the minimum,a good eg is the Falkland war.
Therefore, does SG need that capability to have power projection for far off region? No, SG is a small country, let the big boys do it.
Does SG have the budget for such force? Maybe , but it will cost us ton of moneys.
Does SG has the manpower to manned all the above?
A definite big NO.RSN will have to at least double maybe even triple the manpower for RSN. You must take care of the home front when you r sending a ocean going expendition.With the current & possibly future manpower constraint for SAF , this is almost a impossible dream. -
An expeditionary force may not necessarily have to be an invasion force capable of overcoming everything, but simply a force with the ability to project its forces to other lands and support them logistically. It doesn't have to be one that must jump right into combat immediately.
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Originally posted by gary1910:
Well , it depend on how big u want ur so call 'region' to be. U had said in ur previous post that our ships can onli 'kick' in our region. How much do u wanna include into the word region? Our region can asia , asia-pacific , or ASEAN? If it is Asean that u mean , then i can tell u that our navy can engage in minor stand offs up to western Oceania region which is out of ASEAN.
An expenditory force for the region ? Yes.
Over ocean expenditory forces? No
Do you noe what it take to have that, at least 2-3 destroyers, 4 Frigates,2 LPDs, 2-3 submarines & at the minimum at least one A/C carrier wif maybe 1-2 sqn of fighters, reccon a/c, rescue helos,& Awacs for minimum air support. That is only the fighting vessals, you still need the support ships, like the Hospital ship, repair ship, the tugboat, oil tankers, stores & ammo ship etc.
All the above is just the minimum,a good eg is the Falkland war.
Therefore, does SG need that capability to have power projection for far off region? No, SG is a small country, let the big boys do it.
Does SG have the budget for such force? Maybe , but it will cost us ton of moneys.
Does SG has the manpower to manned all the above?
A definite big [b]NO.RSN will have to at least double maybe even triple the manpower for RSN. You must take care of the home front when you r sending a ocean going expendition.With the current manpower constraint for SAF , this is almost a impossible dream.[/b]
I had quoted JDW saying that our SAF will to become a expeditory force. U said that our expeditory force is onli restricted to our region , i can then tell u confidently that we are already an expeditory force to be reckon with under your impression now.
Gary , u have a habit of putting words into my mouth. I will like ask when did i say an ocean crossing expenditory force? An expenditory force may include many meanings. To some it is the 7th fleet , to others it is jus an increase in combatant, an increase in capability to future enchance victory in regional battles and the capability to move military influence out of her shores. How much further is dependent on how much she wanna invest in. If u need wat Gary said jus to be an expenditory force , then the world will onli have 1 expenditory force and perhaps 5 sub-expenditory force kicking.
I have full confidence that Singapore will not stop at 6 Frigates and 4 LSTs. Our technology shown off in our LST had amaze the whole on how we can manage to run large ships with small amount of people. I can forsee that for the next 10 years , more Frigates even guilded missile Destroyers can be included into our inventory.
Our 6 MCV have to go in the next 10 years , 12 PVs will have to face up to retirement perhaps in the next 5 to 10 years if a replacement is convincing enough for the Mindef to adopt. Our beloved Sir Lancelot LST may be replaced by something bigger ( how much bigger we dun know ). Our submarine is facing a undoubtable replacement by 2010. So let us have a summary of RSN 2015 :
6 Frigates/ Destroyers. 110m+
6 Frigates. 110m
6 OPVs 81m ( replacing ASWPV ).
6 PVs.
4 LSTs.
1 LPD ( or bigger vessel ).
5 NG-Sub.
2 Sub ( Sjoormen for training ).
Our dear RMN is aiming for 27 NGPVs and im sure RSN will be planning something big. I believe with the force ( as above ) , protecting our interest as far as the Indian Ocean ( not a stand off with india ) or senting ships for peacekeeping missions anywhere on this globe wont be a problem. That is wat i call and i believe what JDW will call an expeditory force. -
So u r saying a supporting role wif the big boys that have a true blue navy. That I concur.Originally posted by laser51088:An expeditionary force may not necessarily have to be an invasion force capable of overcoming everything, but simply a force with the ability to project its forces to other lands and support them logistically. It doesn't have to be one that must jump right into combat immediately.
But RSN by itself w/o what I have stated is certainly no power projection becos you dun even have air cover, no Awac where the enemy could target you over the horizon & you could not. -
Hmm... if only ST could come up with a super stealthy surface ship armed mainly with missiles that would sit far behind other friendly combatants and launch tens of missiles at multiple targets guided in via the forward units...
Naval missile fire support... cool... -
What I define as regional is depend on the range of our fighters wif the most one refuelling from tankers, any further away from where our a/c able to reach means no air cover & AWAC support for our fleet. As i reply to laser, if our enemy have AWACs and therefore could target our ships over horizon and we can't , it certainly dun look good for us especially if the enemy a/c joined into the fight as well.Originally posted by foxtrout8:Well , it depend on how big u want ur so call 'region' to be. U had said in ur previous post that our ships can onli 'kick' in our region. How much do u wanna include into the word region? Our region can asia , asia-pacific , or ASEAN? If it is Asean that u mean , then i can tell u that our navy can engage in minor stand offs up to western Oceania region which is out of ASEAN.