SAF COMMISSIONS LOCALLY-BUILT SELF-PROPELLED ARTILLERY
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Are we playing Wheel of Fortune? Let's see, may I have a vowel, please?
If u speak to the chappies who welded and painted the thing, they call it the A*****.
This is an open forum. No point playing word games.
Should I solve the puzzle? Or should I "carry on" (try saying that REAL fast) *nudge nudge*
r u going Thunder Warrior?
Dear David, u must be watching too many game shows... the chappies who welded and painted the thing may call it A***** for all they care, what really matters is what the PMT calls it...
This may be an open forum, but some things are best left unsaid. if you know, you know. if not, 'carry on' with the word game
let me give you another tidbit... TW is not my first LF on the SPH...
The Real David Boey.... hee hee hee
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Now I am really confused , 1roundaway said ... So what is what? anyone else?
Therefore I would said that the Primus was based on chassis of a new design rather the original M109s but both are designed by UPLD.
look gary, things are really simple. go take a first-hand look at the SPH when you can (during defence exhibitions, Open Houses etc). -
Can the SPH aka Primus be used in direct fire mode?
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Originally posted by 1roundaway:
Are those chasis new or re-con?
trust me it is exactly the M109 chasis and it has not been greatly modified. The SPH is considered locally developed. if you look at the package as a whole instead of just the chasis, you'll realise that the gun is local-developed and the integration was done by our engineers. of course there are some stuff that are COTs e.g. the on-board computers etc. why build every single part from scratch when some of the stuff is readily available?
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trust me...
What's COTs ? -
NO need lah... U only need a driver and a VC to sit on top and salute.. no need 10 months lah..Originally posted by duotiga83:i don't think so.....this chap need at least 10mths of training to operate it.......
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Are both guns similar?
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COTs or COTS....?Originally posted by Paladin:Are those chasis new or re-con?
What's COTs ?
COTS = Commercial off the shelf. -
The PRIMUS Self Propelled Howitzer has the same 155mm 39 calibre gun as the Light Weight Self-Propelled Howitzer (LWSPH) - see the following site from ST Kinetics.
http://www.stengg.com/land/downloads/la_Lwsph.pdf
The LWSPH is mounted on a framed vehicle chasis on rubber tired wheels, while the PRIMUS seems to wrap the same 155mm 39 calibre gun into an Armored Turret, and mounted on a tracked chasis.
If the SAF is replacing the front line APC with the BIONIX, it will leave behind a large pool of M113, which makes it a fantastic candidate to allow it to be modified into the PRIMUS.
In Tuesday Straits Times, the New Singapore Developed Self-Propelled Howitzer was proudly reported.
Surprisingly, it was mentioned that the turret does not revolve 360 degrees, but only traverse 17 degree to the left, and 17 degree to the right. Any fire beyond these two angles will require the entire PRIMUS to move its entire chasis to the intended direction. -
Below are the links to the partial fact sheet from ST on the Primus:
http://www.stengg.com/cf-bin/news/docs/Primus-Fact%20Sheet%20and%20Technical%20Specifications.pdfSurprisingly, it was mentioned that the turret does not revolve 360 degrees, but only traverse 17 degree to the left, and 17 degree to the right. Any fire beyond these two angles will require the entire PRIMUS to move its entire chasis to the intended direction.
As for having only able to transverse for only 34deg for the turret I think it is not a big deal for a SPH operationally especially for a tracked one cos it could turn the vehicle easily.
Almost all non turret SPH like the Rascal, Caeser & the turreted G6 have limited arc of fire for their guns and yet they r highly regarded.
I think due to Primus small size & it's extensive auotmation with the gun loading & laying as well as it's 22 rounds magazine might limit the tranverse of the turret. I think this is a better compromise.
What do you guys think?
CHARGE!!!
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its more probably something to do with the recoil during firing...
a look at the video ... shows the SPH rocking abit after each fire....
thus... if the turret is at a perpendicular angle to the chasis... a firing attempt could cause some instability in the entire platform... who knows.. the entire platform might tip over... -
I think it's high time to step out of simulator rooms and start clearing ammo dumps in OIF.
Time to see if all these gizmos work! They need christening with flow of Singaporean blood.
Time for testing 'software' guys.
And don't send in company size units please. Send the whole bloody brigade! Send the whole ABG in Wallaby! -
Originally posted by gary1910:
You are right about this being similar to non turretted SPH.
Below are the links to the partial fact sheet from ST on the Primus:
http://www.stengg.com/cf-bin/news/docs/Primus-Fact%20Sheet%20and%20Technical%20Specifications.pdf
As for having only able to transverse for only 34deg for the turret I think it is not a big deal for a SPH operationally especially for a tracked one cos it could turn the vehicle easily.
Almost all non turret SPH like the Rascal, Caeser & the turreted G6 have limited arc of fire for their guns and yet they r highly regarded.
I think due to Primus small size & it's extensive auotmation with the gun loading & laying as well as it's 22 rounds magazine might limit the tranverse of the turret. I think this is a better compromise.
What do you guys think?
[b]CHARGE!!!
[/b]
But Primus is turreted. Compared to M106, etc which can traverse the gun 360 degrees.
Also, total ammo in Primus is only 26 (22 in autoloader + 4 in the hull). This is about half of that carried by M106 and other newer SPH.
You'll need an ammo carrier nearby to reload quickly. -
I think the capability to transverse is a "good-to-have". needless to say, a 360 degree transverse is better than a limited arc like our SSPH.
However, to be able to transverse and fire a 360 degree will probably result in a heavier and/or larger vehicle.
From the article, weight is probably an important consideration. Actually, since it is going to fire from long range, a 360 degree transervse is not really very useful.
You will deploy facing the enemy.
When needed you fire, you fire.
It is highly unlikely that you will be needed to fire 180 degree to the rear, unless you are completely cutoff and isolated or there is an extremely fluid situation developing. Which is a rare scenario.
Why must we put up with a heavier and more expensive vehicle to cater to this rate situation.
Someone mentioned that we are getting 110 vehicles. Is that a fact?? Open domain??
If we are getting so many guns, that means that some of the existing 155mm towed will definitely be replaced. -
Well, since the operational doctrine is to shoot and run for SPH, and not stay in a spot, and lay a constant barrage, it may be okay in the planners view?Originally posted by observe:Also, total ammo in Primus is only 26 (22 in autoloader + 4 in the hull). This is about half of that carried by M106 and other newer SPH.
You'll need an ammo carrier nearby to reload quickly.
I would be wondering if they make a dedicated resupply vehicle, but I am betting on them using BRONCO as a ammo carrier/truck. Tracked, can carry load, no need much modifications(truck)....and can keep up with the SPH / armour units....Err...except you need manpower to resupply...Not fun to carry though. -
The advantage of SPH overTowed Arty is well known:
a. Protection for crew
b. faster to deploy
c. faster to undeploy
d. better cross country capability.
I think one of the selling point to the SAF is that it only need 4 men to operate. The towed pieces like FH2000 need about 8 men at least to operate. The old M-71 pieces need 12 men is I am not wrong. And we are very short of men 4-men to one gun will really make the Army men salivate, now we can operate either the same number of guns with less men or operate more guns with the same number of men.
Of course weight is imporant also. Also lighter weight means smaller engine and cheaper maintenance. -
does anybody know the status of the LWSPH?
has MINDEF bought it or what? -
woah!!!
cool piece of equipment man! will they display this during NDP this year? Seems like SAF is getting alot of new stuff this year again.
hmm, the video seems rather jerky and pixelated
they should show it on Tv... may be better...can anyone give us the real deal, pls??? izzit paladin or a specially designed chasis? what abt the gun?
anyway, doesn't 21SA come under 21Div?.... hint hint... -
Dear David, u must be watching too many game shows... the chappies who welded and painted the thing may call it A***** for all they care, what really matters is what the PMT calls it...
This may be an open forum, but some things are best left unsaid. if you know, you know. if not, 'carry on' with the word game
let me give you another tidbit... TW is not my first LF on the SPH...
David? you mean ChineseJunk is David Boey, the SPH reporter? how did u know and why u sabo him? seems like you got insider stories... tell leh... if you dun want to say on open forum, can PM too... -
Originally posted by YourFather:err, advanced data link? What specifically are you referring to? For which service?
Heh Heh Heh
BVR bought over by some ST company.....you know they responsible for the ACMI and the NCMI or FIST.
What the army using??? Tetra, GPRS or 3G??? Need infrastructure in place....... -
As for having only able to transverse for only 34deg for the turret I think it is not a big deal for a SPH operationally especially for a tracked one cos it could turn the vehicle easily.
Almost all non turret SPH like the Rascal, Caeser & the turreted G6 have limited arc of fire for their guns and yet they r highly regarded.
I think due to Primus small size & it's extensive auotmation with the gun loading & laying as well as it's 22 rounds magazine might limit the tranverse of the turret. I think this is a better compromise.
gary1910, u mean there's only 22 rounds? good grief, wont it run out real fast? that's means the ammo train has to be real close to it? anyone know how many missions can 22 rds support? -
Someone mentioned that we are getting 110 vehicles. Is that a fact?? Open domain??
If we are getting so many guns, that means that some of the existing 155mm towed will definitely be replaced.
woah!!! 110 vehicles? all for Primus? can some one pls confirm? btw, which are the 155mm that we have? -
woah!!! 110 vehicles? all for Primus? can some one pls confirm? btw, which are the 155mm that we have?
Look, i've already said that the number of Primus is not 110... try another number between 50-60....
as for 155mm guns, depending which unit you came/come from, the guns may be M71S, FH88 or FH2000. But most of the FH88 and M71s have been phased out already... so operationally, we only have FH2000. Does that help?
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The bulky turret is to accomodate the huge gun, its recoil system, auto-loader, on-board ammo.
Technically, the main gun, the recoil system, magazine, autoloader, computer, comms, datalink etc sits in the turrent. The chasis houses the engines, petrol tank, gear box, and drive mechanism... -
Ok, you have the SPH, the advanced data link, then 'rumors' with the Baz. So what's next?
MLRS I tot we have that already.......
SM 1 replacement???
yes the SPH has DL. nope, we dun have MLRS. yes there will be a replacement for the SM1, but that's later... will let you all know -
22 rds for a 155 seems okay. But it depends on the type of mission. The old M113 SP mortar carried 55-60 rds like the old 21 SA mortarmen told me. But mortar fire as compared to 155 howitzer is more inaccurate, so they depend on volume of fire to bracket a target...its a cost-effective area weapon IMHO.
155 shots tend to be more accurate, thanks to technological developments over the years...weather ballons, air density, humidity, etc etc....all that Firefinder (24 SA) jazz that no one understands.... With the typical missions that the Primus would face, 22 rds would be sufficient, especially when ammo trains follow them around anyway.
Arty missions vary. So it depends on whether the mission requires sustained fire support, and if so, there has to be ammo carriers nearby. (btw, they do use BV206/Bronco for ammo and POL). But most missions that these SP guns/mortars usually do, are the typical shoot and scoot types...that's what those 21 SA guys told me...so the max would be about 2-3 shots before having to move again; that's their SOP. And they moved around ALOT from one location to another after firing a shot or two; it gets dizzying after awhile for them, racing up and down Area D. For them, their vehicle is their biggest chance of survival in a counterbattery attack, so basically they do everything within the confines of the vehicle during operational mode.
Apparently the person who suffers the most in the SP vehicle is the layer, or simply known as the No. 2 man, since he has to stay with the gun/mortar 24/7 in case of fire missions...lol ...I think I'll go nuts staying in such a confined space for an extended period of time...gimme the freedom of a scrambler anyday!!!