SAF COMMISSIONS LOCALLY-BUILT SELF-PROPELLED ARTILLERY
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Originally posted by 1roundaway:
Jane's said that we got 55 M109 chassis...
[b]woah!!! 110 vehicles? all for Primus? can some one pls confirm? btw, which are the 155mm that we have?
Look, i've already said that the number of Primus is not 110... try another number between 50-60....
as for 155mm guns, depending which unit you came/come from, the guns may be M71S, FH88 or FH2000. But most of the FH88 and M71s have been phased out already... so operationally, we only have FH2000. Does that help?
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Can the SPH aka Primus be used in direct fire mode?
Yes.
Are those chasis new or re-con?
New.
its more probably something to do with the recoil during firing...
a look at the video ... shows the SPH rocking abit after each fire....
The recoil? Huh, wait till you're inside the Primus during a live-firing.
can anyone give us the real deal, pls??? izzit paladin or a specially designed chasis? what abt the gun?
For the last time, the chasis is a modified M109 and the gun is an FH88.
doesn't 21SA come under 21Div?....
oh please... you have got to be kidding. Go check the ORBAT of the SAF before you speculate.
David? you mean ChineseJunk is David Boey, the SPH reporter? how did u know and why u sabo him? seems like you got insider stories... tell leh... if you dun want to say on open forum, can PM too...
Well, ChineseJunk claimed to be David Boey in the other thread about Defending The Lion City. So, that's his prerogative. As for insider's info, well.... (i shall not say too much then).... -
Originally posted by @lpha753:
Actually 22 rounds in the magazine for the autoloader, there are another 4 in the hull. Therefore total rounds carry per SSPH are 26, it was reported somewhere.
gary1910, u mean there's only 22 rounds? good grief, wont it run out real fast? that's means the ammo train has to be real close to it? anyone know how many missions can 22 rds support?[/b]
Low in today standard but certainly not low in fire & scoot tactics.
So anyone noe what ammo resupply vehicles is?(my guess it is based on Bronco)
Is the process of re-arming the SSPH semi-auto or totally manual?
CHARGE!!!
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Originally posted by 1roundaway:
You are kidding rite... the gun is a FH88 - the double muzzle break is so different. Furthermore, FH88 doesn't have a the large fume extractor.
can anyone give us the real deal, pls??? izzit paladin or a specially designed chasis? what abt the gun?
For the last time, the chasis is a modified M109 and the gun is an FH88.
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FH-88
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According to the Chinese paper, the SSPH-1 is meant to replace the SP mortar. Here the link if you could read chinese:
http://www.zaobao.com/sp/sp013_251103.html
CHARGE!!! -
What's so surprising? The crusader's can only traverse 20 degrees.Originally posted by Atobe:The PRIMUS Self Propelled Howitzer has the same 155mm 39 calibre gun as the Light Weight Self-Propelled Howitzer (LWSPH) - see the following site from ST Kinetics.
http://www.stengg.com/land/downloads/la_Lwsph.pdf
The LWSPH is mounted on a framed vehicle chasis on rubber tired wheels, while the PRIMUS seems to wrap the same 155mm 39 calibre gun into an Armored Turret, and mounted on a tracked chasis.
If the SAF is replacing the front line APC with the BIONIX, it will leave behind a large pool of M113, which makes it a fantastic candidate to allow it to be modified into the PRIMUS.
In Tuesday Straits Times, the New Singapore Developed Self-Propelled Howitzer was proudly reported.
Surprisingly, it was mentioned that the turret does not revolve 360 degrees, but only traverse 17 degree to the left, and 17 degree to the right. Any fire beyond these two angles will require the entire PRIMUS to move its entire chasis to the intended direction. -
You are kidding rite... the gun is a FH88 - the double muzzle break is so different. Furthermore, FH88 doesn't have a the large fume extractor.
FH-88
The muzzle brake on a gun can be changed/removed without affecting the range to which projectiles can be fired. Muzzle brakes are there more to counteract the force of the barrel's recoil. It doesn't really matter whether it's a single, double, multi baffle or pepper pot muzzle brake (our navy's 76mm guns use pepper pot muzzle brakes) so long as the gun has recoil and recuperator cylinders strong enough to absorb the shock of the gun blast.
You can't see the recoil mechanism on the Primus but this is under the large box-like "thingy" at the bottom portion of the barrel.
Having said that, not all artillery pieces use muzzle brakes.
Years ago, we used limited numbers of towed M114 155mm howitzers. These didn't have a muzzle brake. But Taiwanese M114s mounted on their XT-69 SP guns have a multi baffle muzzle brake. It's essentially the same gun, with the same firing performance too.
re: fume extractors. You don't need these on towed artillery pieces simply because the noxious fumes produced after firing the weapon can be vented after the breech block is opened. If you're a gunner, you would probably like to have one on your SP gun because the firing compartment may fill up with smoke pretty quick if there's no fume extractor to prevent the build up of noxious gases after the weapon is discharged - especially when firing three round bursts. And it's not a good idea to vent these fumes into your enclosed turret either.
I'm no gun expert so someone, please do jump in if I've misfired my explanation.
Perhaps the forumer who had his passport stamped by Suid Afrikan immigration when he attended the LF trials there?
It's pretty late. I've got to be at NTU 9am tomorrow morning for the Defence Tech Prize event. Hopefully the exhibition will be worth the long MRT ride.
Lights out! -
Originally posted by ChineseJunk:
Can muzzle brakes be changed so easily? aren't muzzle brakes pretty much fixed on the barrels?
The muzzle brake on a gun can be changed/removed without affecting the range to which projectiles can be fired. Muzzle brakes are there more to counteract the force of the barrel's recoil. It doesn't really matter whether it's a single, double, multi baffle or pepper pot muzzle brake (our navy's 76mm guns use pepper pot muzzle brakes) so long as the gun has recoil and recuperator cylinders strong enough to absorb the shock of the gun blast.
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If the SPH has indeed the FH88 gun, why then have a different muzzle brake? What adopt the double baffle muzzle brake rather than the multi-baffle ones used in FH88 and FH2000? Or... Why not changed to the pepper pot ones favour in German PzH2000? -
ya.....and it's even easier since they building a whole new barrelOriginally posted by Joe Black:Can muzzle brakes be changed so easily? aren't muzzle brakes pretty much fixed on the barrels?
If the SPH has indeed the FH88 gun, why then have a different muzzle brake? What adopt the double baffle muzzle brake rather than the multi-baffle ones used in FH88 and FH2000? Or... Why not changed to the pepper pot ones favour in German PzH2000? -
ARTILLERY: Lightweight Self-Propelled Howitzer
December 3, 2003: The Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) has put 18 new SSPH1 Primus Self Propelled Howitzers into service. The name Primus is derived from the Latin motto of the Singapore Army's Artillery Formation: In Oriente Primus, 'First in the East'.
The Primus was developed and tested in secrecy over six years to fill a requirement for a tracked howitzer for use with armored battle groups, and is a pretty interesting example of what you can achieve by setting modest goals. For a start, the Primus is a light, 28 ton, 155mm, 39 caliber SPH (self-propelled howitzer), roughly half the weight of the German PzH 2000 (itself an improved version of the U.S. M-109). Weight was the principle design element of the Primus, as it was designed for use in the close, soft jungle terrain of South East Asia, and it could not exceed the 30 ton weight limit for crossing narrow road bridges.
The weight limitation means that the Primus seems limited when compared to other SPHs, like the AS90 Braveheart, and the PZH 2000. For example, its barrel is only 20 feet long, compared to 26 feet for most other SPH. Its its automated loader can carry only 22 ready rounds as opposed to the PzH2000's 55. Also, it only has a traverse of about 34 degrees.
In compensation, the Primus is a very agile for a tracked howitzer. It's 550Hp Detroit Diesel engine gives it a power to weight ratio of 19.43hp/ton, as opposed to the Braveheart's 15.7hp/ton. This means that it can accelerate from rest faster than the Braveheart, which helps gunners shoot and scoot away from counter artillery. With it's automatic Fire Control System and ring laser gyro and GPS navigation systems, the Primus can unlimber from march in less than a minute, fire an accurate 3 round burst in 20 seconds, and then scoot off within a minute. An automated fuse setter currently being developed will further shorten the firing time, which currently has a maximum of 6 rounds/minute.
The shorter barrel length may give the Primus a range disadvantage when compared to most other current SPHs, but a larger calibre howitzer would have increased the weight of the Primus above the maximum 30 ton limit. The Primus is also meant to operate just behind the Forward Edge of Battle, where response times and availability are more crucial than range.
Singapore has a long history of developing artillery. It's first howitzer,the FH88 155mm 39 caliber, was developed in 1988 with rumored input from South Africa, and was followed by the FH2000 52 caliber 155mm howitzer in the 1995. In 2002, during Asian Aerospace 2002, Singapore Technologies Kinetics unveiled a lightweight, 7 tons, 39 caliber 155mm howitzer mounted on a 4x4 chassis which can be carried under a Chinook. -- Shawn Chung
http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTART.HTM -
Fume extractor is always needed. Otherwise, when the breach is loaded, the crew will choke to death. Even with the hatches open.
Fume extractor is basically a high presure reservoir located at midpoint of the barrel. When the projectile passes the extractor, it gets filled with propellant gas. When the projectile leaves the barrel, the extractor discharges, preventing the rush in of atmospheric air into the barrel and down to the breech.
It is paramount to operate the SP when the crew is "button up" for aerial or artillery bombardment. Otherwise it is as good, aka useless as a towed howizter. -
It seems very top heavy from the exteral which will run the risk of over-turning!I wonder if they have anything to counter this?
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Which forumer is that?Originally posted by ChineseJunk:[b]
Perhaps the forumer who had his passport stamped by Suid Afrikan immigration when he attended the LF trials there?
The ...thing is still classified! -
DADT [Dont Ask, Dont Tell]Originally posted by wombat:I would be wondering if they make a dedicated resupply vehicle, but I am betting on them using BRONCO as a ammo carrier/truck. Tracked, can carry load, no need much modifications(truck)....and can keep up with the SPH / armour units....Err...except you need manpower to resupply...Not fun to carry though.
Bronco? A ammo resupplier?
Nope.
I can only say this, the similarities between Paladin and Primus are more than just the name.
Make your own inferences. -
110?Originally posted by 1roundaway:[b]I don't believe Primuses are built to replace the SP Mortars.
b]
How many? well, i don't think it is appropriate to discuss numbers/quantity here, but it's definitely not 110.
At 18 guns a Bn, 110 guns would be enough...
110 divide by 18 = 6.1 something
6 Bns = 2 whole Artillery divisions.
We're not going to be exporting this little guy out anytime soon.
We're not the Ol' Soviet Army too.
Think smaller, guys! -
Watch that. It's a open forum , but people are watching us.Originally posted by ChineseJunk:Should I solve the puzzle? Or should I "carry on" (try saying that REAL fast) *nudge nudge*
r
IT doesnt matter what the chappies in the assembly plants say, or the gunners.
What matters is what MINDEF chappies, and most importantly, Chief Of Artillery's thoughts. -
One interesting question :- Since it's a tracked vehicle, does it come under Armour or does it stay in Arty Formation?Originally posted by Johnston:110?
At 18 guns a Bn, 110 guns would be enough...
110 divide by 18 = 6.1 something
6 Bns = 2 whole Artillery divisions.
We're not going to be exporting this little guy out anytime soon.
We're not the Ol' Soviet Army too.
Think smaller, guys! -
21SA. Where?
Kranji.
3 SAB.
Where?
Kranji.
That should be answer enough.
Actually it's more like a mishmash.
Arty learn from Armour. Primus is our 1st SPH after all, if you dont count the 120mm SP mortars.
They still come under the command of Chief Of Artillery.
I see him everyday. -
The only thing that really disturbed me about the Primus is it's high ground pressure as a tracked veh, even though it still lower than a wheeled veh at the same weight class.
Primus :180 kPa or 1.83 kg/sq cm at 28.3 tons.
Ascod 30 : 166 kPa or 1.69 kg/sq cm at 28.5 tons.
Bradley M2A3 : 71.6 kPa or 0.73 kg/sq cm at 29.9 tons.
CV90120-T : 50 kPa or 0.51 kg/sq cm at 25 tons.
Any comment on why it is so high?
CHARGE!!! -
Is it really, now?
Bear in mind that the other vehicles you mentioned are not so heavy, while Primus is a 155mm gun after all.
Size of armament, and weight of shells. -
Those are combat weight, that means including ammo.Originally posted by Johnston:Is it really, now?
Bear in mind that the other vehicles you mentioned are not so heavy, while Primus is a 155mm gun after all.
Size of armament, and weight of shells.
The original M109A6 is 0.951kg/sq cm with 39 rounds at 28.8 tons.
CHARGE!!! -
Originally posted by gary1910:
Well!
Those are combat weight, that means including ammo.
The original M109A6 is 0.951kg/sq cm with 39 rounds at 28.8 tons.
[b]CHARGE!!!
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You must understand that i cannot divulge too much, nor do i profess to have been on the team that nursed Primus from idea, to prototype, to actual firing vehicle.
If i ever get the chance, i'll quiz one of my camp officers about this. -
If the numbers are that small, the per unit cost must be quite high!Originally posted by Johnston:110?
At 18 guns a Bn, 110 guns would be enough...
110 divide by 18 = 6.1 something
6 Bns = 2 whole Artillery divisions.
We're not going to be exporting this little guy out anytime soon.
We're not the Ol' Soviet Army too.
Think smaller, guys!
Is the money spent on R&D for this project really worthwhile ? -
Why not ask the Soviets, who have spent HUGE amounts of money on R&D for lots of projects? Typhoon, Blackjack, the 203mm SP howitzer, and much much more?Originally posted by observe:If the numbers are that small, the per unit cost must be quite high!
Is the money spent on R&D for this project really worthwhile ?
It's not say per unit cost high or what, simple rule of buying things.
You buy just enough for your needs, and some in reserve.
After all, you dont buy 20 bags of rice for a month's food, do you? -
Is the Primus a candidate for the US IBCT brigade?
If they are considering M8 as a candidate for the direct fires support vehicle then Primus may be just right?
I think they are going back on the Piranha.......maybe time to fit in the Terrex since it's in Turkey already.
Or the M113 will make a comeback?
Let's see how they perform in OIF when they get there?