SAF COMMISSIONS LOCALLY-BUILT SELF-PROPELLED ARTILLERY
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The USSR went backrupt after all that spending without giving due considerations to the economical viability all their projects.Originally posted by Johnston:Why not ask the Soviets, who have spent HUGE amounts of money on R&D for lots of projects? Typhoon, Blackjack, the 203mm SP howitzer, and much much more?
It's not say per unit cost high or what, simple rule of buying things.
You buy just enough for your needs, and some in reserve.
After all, you dont buy 20 bags of rice for a month's food, do you?
I read somewhere once that for a combat vehicle like a APC or Tank etc, the rule of thumb is to have a requirement of around 300 to make it viable to produce them locally. Anything less is better to them from somebody else.
So from that angle, if the projected total numbers of the locally made SPH is less than 300 (for both SAF needs and for exports), it would have been more economical to buy them from somewhere else...esp if most of the requirements seems to be met by the M109 Paladin except for the width. The width of the M109 on only slightly more than 3m. -
I agree! The cost of locally developing a M109 variant in Primus maybe dodgy here. Ok in the case of Bionix the numbers may justify the cost. Still I'm not so sure the M113 or local variants should be put aside in future SAF requirements.Originally posted by observe:The USSR went backrupt after all that spending without giving due considerations to the economical viability all their projects.
I read somewhere once that for a combat vehicle like a APC or Tank etc, the rule of thumb is to have a requirement of around 300 to make it viable to produce them locally. Anything less is better to them from somebody else.
So from that angle, if the projected total numbers of the locally made SPH is less than 300 (for both SAF needs and for exports), it would have been more economical to buy them from somewhere else...esp if most of the requirements seems to be met by the M109 Paladin except for the width. The width of the M109 on only slightly more than 3m. -
You make a very good point, but we're not most of the world.Originally posted by observe:I read somewhere once that for a combat vehicle like a APC or Tank etc, the rule of thumb is to have a requirement of around 300 to make it viable to produce them locally. Anything less is better to them from somebody else.
So from that angle, if the projected total numbers of the locally made SPH is less than 300 (for both SAF needs and for exports), it would have been more economical to buy them from somewhere else...esp if most of the requirements seems to be met by the M109 Paladin except for the width. The width of the M109 on only slightly more than 3m.
Why should we buy 300 kgs of rice if all we need is 20 or so for the month?
Understand that even the Fh88 nor 2000 has been exported out yet. Primus has just been unveiled, it wont be exported out so soon.
And in any case, i wonder if it might even be wanted.
As it is, Russia, US and South Africa already have a glut of artillery systems. A reinvented 155/39cal SPH needs something really special for it to be viable in export. Which, so far, i dont see Primus as being really special. -
Originally posted by Fairyland:
Personally, i think the M113 is overupgraded.
[b]Is the Primus a candidate for the US IBCT brigade?
If they are considering M8 as a candidate for the direct fires support vehicle then Primus may be just right?
I think they are going back on the Piranha.......maybe time to fit in the Terrex since it's in Turkey already.
Or the M113 will make a comeback?
b]
M8 AGS? I thought that system was scrapped a long time ago?
Anyway, who is to say about sales? *shrugs*
Supply and demand, supply and demand.
If the US Army wants Primus, who is to say?
But i dont think so. They already have enough arty. -
Hi,
Similar type of automatic loader in the Self propelled Howitzer
at : http://www.wd.com/m1loader.htm
Happy reading.
Regards, -
From public domain.....the FH2000 'design' was exported or licensed to Turkey.Originally posted by Johnston:Understand that even the Fh88 nor 2000 has been exported out yet. Primus has just been unveiled, it wont be exported out so soon.
And in any case, i wonder if it might even be wanted. -
I believe the M8 tank destroyer is available for procurement from United Defence Technologies. It has been tested and evaluated, now sitting on the shelf waiting for a buyer.Originally posted by Johnston:M8 AGS? I thought that system was scrapped a long time ago? -
Nope the whole program was canned after the US army ran outta cash to fund it.Originally posted by Laplace:I believe the M8 tank destroyer is available for procurement from United Defence Technologies. It has been tested and evaluated, now sitting on the shelf waiting for a buyer. -
oh and the M8 is a mobile gun..not an arty system.....so it's in a different catogoray as the Primus.
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http://www.uniteddefense.com/prod/lt_tank.htmOriginally posted by |-|05|:Nope the whole program was canned after the US army ran outta cash to fund it.
Nope, it's available. The prog was canned under the Les Aspin admin. So ...
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Looks more like a product they made but nv went through with and i doubt they selling the system.Originally posted by Laplace:http://www.uniteddefense.com/prod/lt_tank.htm
Nope, it's available. The prog was canned under the Les Aspin admin. So ... -
I don't really understand this post...Originally posted by |-|05|:Looks more like a product they made but nv went through with and i doubt they selling the system.
Anyway, to many American military buffs, the Les Aspin admin was a disaster for the US armed forces. He initiated the cancellations of many projects that were deemed necessary for the US's ability to project into this century - chief among these was the USN's A22 and the army XM8. -
You believe.Originally posted by Laplace:I believe the M8 tank destroyer is available for procurement from United Defence Technologies. It has been tested and evaluated, now sitting on the shelf waiting for a buyer.
The whole thing was scrapped so long ago, after the bugger was first profiled in Tom Clancy's Armored Cav.
Update!! Update!
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November Sierra!Originally posted by Fairyland:From public domain.....the FH2000 'design' was exported or licensed to Turkey.
Well, i could care more.
Turkey?
Wassat?
Where the hell is that?
Thks for the info. -
What he meant, was that the design was researched, a prototype made, already able to start production, but for some reason, (Who cares anyway), it's not in production.Originally posted by Laplace:I don't really understand this post...
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Well, he could have rephrased it into a more legible form.Originally posted by Johnston:What he meant, was that the design was researched, a prototype made, already able to start production, but for some reason, (Who cares anyway), it's not in production.
But it is still available for procurement if a foreign government wants it. United Defense and other heavy industrial corporations do not mass produce and stock-keep. -
A forum user who discredits other's creditability in a sarcastic manner just to enhance his own, does himself disservice.Originally posted by Johnston:You believe.
The whole thing was scrapped so long ago, after the bugger was first profiled in Tom Clancy's Armored Cav.
Update!! Update!
You base your argument on the book written by a techno-thriller novelist who added a disclaimer that the book was written based on his own bias and prejudice. I got mine from the official website of the contractor that made the M8 and who states that is is already tested and ready for procurement.
Go update yourself before spreading your own aspersions. -
Not taking sides here......but I recall seeing a United Defense Booth in the last AA show pushing the M8 AGS.Originally posted by Laplace:A forum user who discredits other's creditability in a sarcastic manner just to enhance his own, does himself disservice.
You base your argument on the book written by a techno-thriller novelist who added a disclaimer that the book was written based on his own bias and prejudice. I got mine from the official website of the contractor that made the M8 and who states that is is already tested and ready for procurement.
Go update yourself before spreading your own aspersions. -
I should take this opportunity to update you about the TU-160 Blackjack "Space" variant (or something like that).Originally posted by Fairyland:Not taking sides here......but I recall seeing a United Defense Booth in the last AA show pushing the M8 AGS.
Tupolev is still pushing it, but there is not evidence about it, just mock-ups. Will investigate and come back.
And Clancy is knowlegeable, definetely more than you. Have you went along on a ride with the 160th SOAR? No. Been out in the field with Marines? No. Been on board a Nitmitz? No.
(Actually it's his researcher, John gresham.) -
Originally posted by Laplace:A forum user who discredits other's creditability in a sarcastic manner just to enhance his own, does himself disservice.
You base your argument on the book written by a techno-thriller novelist who added a disclaimer that the book was written based on his own bias and prejudice. Techno-thriller novelist he may be, but he's one of the best.
I'll have you know that the Hunt For Red October was almost barred from being allowed to be published because of security concerns, until he showed that all was open source.
A simple foreword from him is worth $$$ on any one else's book.
He did come up with many unique ideas, and games. SSN, and the Rainbox 6 series.
And, by the way, there is no M8 AGS on the US Army's official book detailing current, projected, and in-development systems. Nope.
The company can carry on with the M8 if they get their jollies by doing so, just as the Alfa and A-12 Stealth bomber was. America actually using them? Time will tell. -
And also, incidentally, his series of "tour" books on miltary matters are recommended reading for SAF soldiers.
Novelist? Yes. But a novelist who's been there, and seen that. -
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m8-ags.htm
Pix of the prototype, and some further explanation.
http://www.uniteddefense.com/prod/lt_tank.htm
---???
http://www.combatreform.com/strykerprogram.htm
There, should be enough.... -
This reminds me of another Area 51 thingy on Pulse Wave Jet Engines which is supposedly flying somewhere over the States. Now Brahmos ramjet is old compared to this if true!Originally posted by Johnston:I should take this opportunity to update you about the TU-160 Blackjack "Space" variant (or something like that).
Tupolev is still pushing it, but there is not evidence about it, just mock-ups. Will investigate and come back.
And Clancy is knowlegeable, definetely more than you. Have you went along on a ride with the 160th SOAR? No. Been out in the field with Marines? No. Been on board a Nitmitz? No.
(Actually it's his researcher, John gresham.) -
The M8 was never produced!It's more of a product that was researched and a prototype made but the project was cancelled. As for the company trying to market it to other countries i'm not too sure since it is a goverment program.The system is officially still owned by the USArmy.But since it is not classified that maybe possible.Originally posted by Laplace:Well, he could have rephrased it into a more legible form.
But it is still available for procurement if a foreign government wants it. United Defense and other heavy industrial corporations do not mass produce and stock-keep.
And the A-12? John mean that SR-71 look alike??? -
Johnston, no matter how you deny it, no matter how you praise Tom Clancy to the highest, there is no mistake that you are wrong here.
The fact is that United Defense Technologies has placed the M8 in its product catalogues and as Fairyland has pointed out, UD is actively promoting it at international arms and technology trade fairs. This can only mean that the M8 has already completed all necessary evaluation and experimental procedures/stages and only needs the foreign customer to start production lines rolling.
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/supplement/lav/lav_m8.shtml
Just because it's potential launch client backed off at the eleventh hour does not mean the main contractor will simply shlf the entire project indefinitely.