The deaths : Saf should change its welfare rules
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so many deaths in a short period of time.guess someone has got some serious changes to make dount u all agree?..the training deaths are one issue..but what about the others?..Guys , u should know better about what i am talking about..eg:the mongoose doesnt like the snake, so he goes all the way out to put him in the infamouse Kranji "burrow" just because he doesnt like his face..
every unit or miiltary school should have a welfare officer appointed from the memeber of the puublic of non saf origin to ensure fair play..and extra duties/charge/training scope should be officially recorded , signed and approved by this officer..just a suggestion -
no i dont understand wat u toking abt, wat mongoose and wat snake. can be more specific?Originally posted by Bollywood_Beng:so many deaths in a short period of time.guess someone has got some serious changes to make dount u all agree?..the training deaths are one issue..but what about the others?..Guys , u should know better about what i am talking about..eg:the mongoose doesnt like the snake, so he goes all the way out to put him in the infamouse Kranji "burrow" just because he doesnt like his face.. -
what i meant was abuse of power by certain flawed individuals who like to get personal..u will know what i am talking about for the unlucky guys who have gone through this shit
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hayiah... liddat then liddat lor... change and change... called army liao meh
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all extra duties, charge and trg scope are currently being recorded.Originally posted by Bollywood_Beng:every unit or miiltary school should have a welfare officer appointed from the memeber of the puublic of non saf origin to ensure fair play..and extra duties/charge/training scope should be officially recorded , signed and approved by this officer..just a suggestion
misuse of power to get even with someone is a definite no-no. saf views this strongly, as would any organisation with hierarchy. this is prevented by records as u haf mentioned and other checks and balances (like having a counter-signing or approving authority). before someone gets promoted to higher ranks and appointments, i would imagine that they would assess the person to see if he / she is likely to abuse authority and power.
i personally have not encountered or heard of incidences where ppl misuse their powers this way. -
its not that easy fren, sure u hav not heard of any incidents? ...a fren of mine got screwed by his OC beacuse his parents complained to mindef about his unfair treatment....who approves the records?...the cpt, Ocs ect..what is suggested is someone who's outside of non saf origin to take care of matters regarding this issue..how to access a person 100% full proof beforehand to find out if he will abuse power?..then there won be news headlines in the press of this scandals and that..did they ever expect Bill with monicka?..Originally posted by wuming78:all extra duties, charge and trg scope are currently being recorded.
misuse of power to get even with someone is a definite no-no. saf views this strongly, as would any organisation with hierarchy. this is prevented by records as u haf mentioned and other checks and balances (like having a counter-signing or approving authority). before someone gets promoted to higher ranks and appointments, i would imagine that they would assess the person to see if he / she is likely to abuse authority and power.
i personally have not encountered or heard of incidences where ppl misuse their powers this way. -
i foresee that its high chances u r goona end up int he "burrow" if u are the kind who cannot get along well with others even if u didnt do anything wrong..pray hard that r not gonna be the wrong guy at the wrong place wif the wrong peopleOriginally posted by kopiosatu:hayiah... liddat then liddat lor... change and change... called army liao meh -
the approving / counter signing authorities are mostly the superiors, or the manpower department (e.g.)Originally posted by Bollywood_Beng:its not that easy fren, sure u hav not heard of any incidents? ...a fren of mine got screwed by his OC beacuse his parents complained to mindef about his unfair treatment....who approves the records?...the cpt, Ocs ect..what is suggested is someone who's outside of non saf origin to take care of matters regarding this issue..how to access a person 100% full proof beforehand to find out if he will abuse power?..then there won be news headlines in the press of this scandals and that..did they ever expect Bill with monicka?..
wat kind of "screwing" did ur fren get?
of cos no system is 100% foolproof - even if u get an outsider in, it will not be foolproof as well.
there r implications in getting an outsider in - security, resources.
so is it necessary to do so? is the current situation that bad? if it is, is this the only recourse? would the upside be proportionate to the downside? -
hahahah too late... been there, done that, i'm still okayOriginally posted by Bollywood_Beng:i foresee that its high chances u r goona end up int he "burrow" if u are the kind who cannot get along well with others even if u didnt do anything wrong..pray hard that r not gonna be the wrong guy at the wrong place wif the wrong people
in fact i'm thriving in service for almost 3 yrs -
There is a need for such check not just locally but it has to be extended to the overseas training area and the reservist training.
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I personally have not seen serious cases of power abuse. However, I must point out that within the system, there is serious potential for power abuse which can go by undetected. Let me give you an example :
I believe that you guys know that malingering and disobeying orders from superiors are chargeable offences. So is lying to an officer. (WTF, everything is a chargeable offence in the army, so goes the joke among my friends) The thing is, it is all up to the officer whether he want to charge you or not, even for very small things. Malingering, how would one define it? How much laziness would define as malingering? Disobeying orders. Forgeting to carry out a small order would also be "disobeying orders".
Few months ago, SAF just had a AHM donation exercise. We were all given a target of 21 dollars to raise. ("Strongly encouraged to donate", so were the words said. cannot force, because they scared people complain in papers, which happened) We were not allowed to request donations from the public, but from family and friends. Basically, just want money come out of our own pockets la. In the end, most HAM JI, come out 21 dollars. I refused, and came out with around $3. My officer was a good officer, chose to overlook this case. But in my friends coys, they were pressed, and they knew very well that if they didn't get 21 dollars, will have extra duty la, arrow sure increase. This kind of things, can you tell me its not an abuse of power? Sure, they wont punish you explicitly for not raising the required amount, but they will get you in other ways. -
I agree with YourFather...
I had to raise $50 leh... not $21...
most dig into their pockets and pay... i got donations~!! And i didn't even come out a cent!
Okay i donated $2 myself
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father..this was what i meant..there's simply no one to take care of some sucky Ocs and csms ..forced to donate..this is really unfair and abuse of power man..ask them and they say its disobeying direct orders, shit and a whole lot of filth ..just let me ask if your officer asks u to bend down and lay on all fours and u disobey it..can u be chargeD?
where there is power, there sure is misuse..some guy when given power feels he can do anything, cause the human mind is like that..an incident i encountered was when i passing by a warrant once and he stared at me and asked "what u looking at?!"..and then started to pick on smart 4 not fold properly when ect... -
hayioh... let me teach you something.Originally posted by Bollywood_Beng:father..this was what i meant..there's simply no one to take care of some sucky Ocs and csms ..forced to donate..this is really unfair and abuse of power man..ask them and they say its disobeying direct orders, shit and a whole lot of filth ..just let me ask if your officer asks u to bend down and lay on all fours and u disobey it..can u be chargeD?
where there is power, there sure is misuse..some guy when given power feels he can do anything, cause the human mind is like that..an incident i encountered was when i passing by a warrant once and he stared at me and asked "what u looking at?!"..and then started to pick on smart 4 not fold properly when ect...
officer ask u do what, you just do.
he ask u do stupid things, u just do. in front of other people, even better. just do it, then kill him from higher up lah! haiz, don't know why ppl die die must have 'face' in the army. you lose your 'face' for a while, then you can kill that guy off later. Don't give me the example about the dead soldier, i'm referring to the "bend down and lay on all fours" comment.
In a situation like that, I will just do, see how happy it makes him. In fact i'll choose to do it with people looking at me, and i'll do it with a smile on my face, in the end, let's see who will be in trouble.
Okay, this is just how i would do it. No dead soldiers examples please -
human behaviour.. those in power.. usually will tend to abuse it a little.. or a lot haha
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so what about the death?? When in army they always say must strike a balance between SAFETY and OPERATIONAL READINESS.
i guess by "splashing water on the POW course trainees", (as the original lesson plan states) basic endurance and self-discipline cannot even be achieved, let alone OPERATIONAL READINESS.
yes my condolences go out to those who unfortunately died during training while serving their 2 1/2 years...but what is "NS" without accidents occurring??
no offence to the public but i do pity those instructors involved..their level of experience should be high and rich enough to successfully conduct such high risks trainings..however it was jus inevitable that such unfortunate incident happened, and it caused them their jobs. Thousands had passed out from the course alive before.
SO...WELFARE OR NOT? SAFE OR NOT? RELISTIC TRAINING THEN??? YOU DECIDE -
I had an officer who forced me to go on leave with threats of "disobeying a direct order"...
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i guess you are another one who think that the instructors didnt do anything wrong eh?Originally posted by Ler83:so what about the death?? When in army they always say must strike a balance between SAFETY and OPERATIONAL READINESS.
i guess by "splashing water on the POW course trainees", (as the original lesson plan states) basic endurance and self-discipline cannot even be achieved, let alone OPERATIONAL READINESS.
yes my condolences go out to those who unfortunately died during training while serving their 2 1/2 years...but what is "NS" without accidents occurring??
no offence to the public but i do pity those instructors involved..their level of experience should be high and rich enough to successfully conduct such high risks trainings..however it was jus inevitable that such unfortunate incident happened, and it caused them their jobs. Thousands had passed out from the course alive before.
SO...WELFARE OR NOT? SAFE OR NOT? RELISTIC TRAINING THEN??? YOU DECIDE
precisely..thousand have pass the course alive..but y only the recent death?
it is not inevitable..IT CAN BE PREVENTED!!!
basic endurance? its either you got hit on your head or something else..u cant train to be torture...no such thing as getting endurance for torture training..unless you like SM..
you offended me..i wont quit bashing you..
once again i will use the same theory as given by you..y not we implement shooting live round into our NSF..so to train them to endure pain n death..
it is hard for NS to be accident free..but we can minimise it..NS can be death free..
it cause the instructors their job..they deserve it..whats with the pity?
they wont accept your pity too...if they are real man wearing the red berets..they will accept this responsibility..
who are you to pity them?
are you gona use your brain..YOU DECIDE!! -
plz dun condemn d whole org juz bcoz u had bad experiencez with ur superiorz... it'z not fair... & plz spare a thot 4 ur SGTs, PCs, CSMs & OCs... most of d time, they're d middlemen... d crap u get iz passed down from way up there so no use complaining... d military law iz there 2 maintain order & discipline, not 2 make ur life miserable... & plz hv d common sense 2 distinguish wat orderz u can follow. when in doubt, u can alwayz discuss with another superior... dun make it sound like SAF owez u...
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Originally posted by dead_clone:
true
plz dun condemn d whole org juz bcoz u had bad experiencez with [b]ur superiorz... it'z not fair... & plz spare a thot 4 ur SGTs, PCs, CSMs & OCs... most of d time, they're d middlemen... d crap u get iz passed down from way up there so no use complaining... d military law iz there 2 maintain order & discipline, not 2 make ur life miserable... & plz hv d common sense 2 distinguish wat orderz u can follow. when in doubt, u can alwayz discuss with another superior... dun make it sound like SAF owez u...[/b]
dead true...
but there are still specs, PCs n OCs think they are god..n some orders might not be neccesary be from up there..
still there black sheeps..worst still..there are wolf among the black sheeps.. -
let's hope we dun start to cover old ground again. we all noe tt topic has been beaten to death.
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agreed.Originally posted by kopiosatu:hayioh... let me teach you something.
officer ask u do what, you just do.
he ask u do stupid things, u just do. in front of other people, even better. just do it, then kill him from higher up lah! haiz, don't know why ppl die die must have 'face' in the army. you lose your 'face' for a while, then you can kill that guy off later. Don't give me the example about the dead soldier, i'm referring to the "bend down and lay on all fours" comment.
In a situation like that, I will just do, see how happy it makes him. In fact i'll choose to do it with people looking at me, and i'll do it with a smile on my face, in the end, let's see who will be in trouble.
Okay, this is just how i would do it. No dead soldiers examples please
my 2IC(only a useless young LTA, aren't they all?) is a piece of junk who can't do any of his own work n pushes everything to me, make me stay late n such. I just stay, do once, and then next day he gets hit with a whammy of complaints from my parents because i am not even supposed to stay late on med grounds. Then my CSM(a nice but fiery lady), will screw him over.
Now he dun dare make me stay late anymore. -
its regrettable tt many of us tend to generalise and assume tt our own experiences are representative of the bigger picture. is it fair?Originally posted by HENG@:agreed.
my 2IC(only a useless young LTA, aren't they all?)
please take into consideration of the other party when making such statements. mabbe b4 we jump into making such sweeping statements, we shud also consider wat the other party is thinking of us. -
too bad then. maybe i've served under all the useless young LTAs, but u can ask kopisatu about whether im generalising too much.Originally posted by wuming78:its regrettable tt many of us tend to generalise and assume tt our own experiences are representative of the bigger picture. is it fair?
please take into consideration of the other party when making such statements. mabbe b4 we jump into making such sweeping statements, we shud also consider wat the other party is thinking of us. -
yes, i can understand. i had my share of lousy colleagues and superiors during my ns.Originally posted by HENG@:too bad then. maybe i've served under all the useless young LTAs, but u can ask kopisatu about whether im generalising too much.
but the experience of 3 (or a handfull more) is most likely not representative of a organisation of thousands.