Navies
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Learned ones,
please give me your views on the following naval warfare mgmt suits and avionics:
1) AEGIS Weapons system with SPY-1A/D(V)/F active phased-array radar
2) Principle Anti-Air Missile System (PAAMS) with BAe Sampson dual face active phased-array radar
3) SEWACO XI Combat Data Demand System with Smart-L APAR
The first combo is used by the JSMDF, USN, Royal Spanish navy (SPY-1F) and soon the Royal Norwiegen Navy. The second combo will be used by the RN and the last is currently used by the Royal Dutch Navy and soon the Kriegsmarine. -
Aegis.
Only the best, forget about the rest!
If it's good enough to be fitted on Ticoderogas, and Arleigh Burke class DDGs, also to be used and considered by so many other countries, isnt that proof enough?
Aegis, quite literally was the first fully-automated system to deal with as many incoming bogies/vampires as possible, and keep the carrier alive.
(Cant say too much, Naval systems aren't my forte)
Will do some research. -
A very tall order indeed. Out of my league........
One question though, how many of 6 Delta Frigate hulls are under construction at the present time? I count 3.
One in France, two here. Hmm......
Herakles alone not good enough? -
And what of optical weapon guidance systems like the Thales Mirador? The Dutch are fitting them on four of their new AAFs. Is the role of Mirador simply to offer a ship other means of firing its weapons without the use of a fire-control radar? Shouldn't such systems work better onboard a smaller littoral warfare vessel like corvettes and missile gunboats than a large ocean-going frigate?
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What of K-19?
Hey i nv said the USN wasnt the best out there with subs.I was just stating the facts that the USN did lose something like 3 SSN's.And besides the Russian navy lost that many subs because incase you havent noticed they lagged far far far behind since they did not even bother about subs during ww2.While the US did put in alot of effort during the ww2 years.So you can count the early years of the Soviet sub fleet as learning the ropes which the USN already did.The Krusk cannot be counted due to the fact that the Russian navy now is broke and i'm surprised so far only 1 sub has sunk.And yes the Alfa's were crap.....too bloody noisy.
K-219 Yankee?
Mike class SSN?
The Kursk?
And the Echo II class that collided with another US sub?
Delta colliding with a 688?
And how many subs have the americans lost? Not too many.
And none lost due to a missile incident like what happened on board K-219.
All thanks to the hard work put in by Admiral Hyman Rickover.
Who has more experience in operating subs?
You tell me.
It might be interesting for you to read "blind man's bluff" a book on cold war espionage involving submarines.
And while the seawolf is good it's been cancelled due to cost....they are too expensive even for the USN!(interesting since they can spend money on those B-2s) -
But they are the best. No doubt about it.Originally posted by |-|05|:Hey i nv said the USN wasnt the best out there with subs.I was just stating the facts that the USN did lose something like 3 SSN's.And besides the Russian navy lost that many subs because incase you havent noticed they lagged far far far behind since they did not even bother about subs during ww2.While the US did put in alot of effort during the ww2 years.So you can count the early years of the Soviet sub fleet as learning the ropes which the USN already did.The Krusk cannot be counted due to the fact that the Russian navy now is broke and i'm surprised so far only 1 sub has sunk.And yes the Alfa's were crap.....too bloody noisy.
And while the seawolf is good it's been cancelled due to cost....they are too expensive even for the USN!(interesting since they can spend money on those B-2s)
How many shows do you see featuring British or French subs?
You want to count lost of subs? It's easy to see that the most subs lost are Soviet.
Lagged far behind? On the contrary, the first nuclear submarines were Soviet, and US. Even though the US operated the Nautilus first, that is no great excuse.
Fine, discount the Kursk.
What of the K-19 Hotel SSBN? Immortalized in "Widowmaker"
K-219 Yankee SSBN? Shown in "Hostile waters"
Mike class experimental sub?
Simply put, the USN can take on any other navy today, except perhaps the NATO navies combined.
To compare our SSKs with a 688, is like a shark next to a goldfish. -
Oh, and by the way,
K-19 was one of the early Hotel SSBNs, so there can be no argument that "ee! old ship, of coz will fall apart laH!"
Might even have been the first Hotel.
I'm RUSTY! -
Originally posted by |-|05|:
Your argument is that the USN is so good because of their WWII experience.
[b]
Hey i nv said the USN wasnt the best out there with subs.
.While the US did put in alot of effort during the ww2 years.
So you can count the early years of the Soviet sub fleet as learning the ropes which the USN already did.
b]
Very well.
I'll have you know the first Soviet SSN came out only 5 years after Nautilus. -
See....you read all this about how the world is heading towards asymetrical threats and so future actions likely to happen in 'green water'.....Originally posted by Laplace:And what of optical weapon guidance systems like the Thales Mirador? The Dutch are fitting them on four of their new AAFs. Is the role of Mirador simply to offer a ship other means of firing its weapons without the use of a fire-control radar? Shouldn't such systems work better onboard a smaller littoral warfare vessel like corvettes and missile gunboats than a large ocean-going frigate?
Ocean-going frigates, cruisers and the likes wouldn't be lighting up in deep waters so much except maybe for cruise missiles.
I think the future naval vessels are going to spend alot more fighting closer to shore no matter what their size is. And their enemies maybe stealthy vessels in the form of wooden trawlers in a fishing fleet with high power outboards for the last mile and human guidance system that is jam, chaff and decoy proof.
EO guidance comes in handy?
As for AAF role.....hmm what sort of threats facing in future......
Supersonic brahmos type ASMs?
MFRs reaction time suspect? Trade off between False alarms and .....? Clutter effect from landscape, commercial vessels in transit, fishing boats?
Maybe EO adds more redudancy and increase prob. of detection with Multi-Band(Spectral and EM) diversity?
With all these sensors, how do you make them work together? -
Yea but the USSR did not really have that much experience in Sub ops and in designing subs.Which the US already had.Infact i'm not even sure they even had any subs before that.Not too sure about that though.Originally posted by Johnston:Your argument is that the USN is so good because of their WWII experience.
Very well.
I'll have you know the first Soviet SSN came out only 5 years after Nautilus.But they are the best. No doubt about it.
Ya the USN is without doubt the best sub fleet out there.And i never was comparing our SSK's to the SSN's....or were you refering to someone else?
How many shows do you see featuring British or French subs?
You want to count lost of subs? It's easy to see that the most subs lost are Soviet.
Lagged far behind? On the contrary, the first nuclear submarines were Soviet, and US. Even though the US operated the Nautilus first, that is no great excuse.
Fine, discount the Kursk.
What of the K-19 Hotel SSBN? Immortalized in "Widowmaker"
K-219 Yankee SSBN? Shown in "Hostile waters"
Mike class experimental sub?
Simply put, the USN can take on any other navy today, except perhaps the NATO navies combined.
To compare our SSKs with a 688, is like a shark next to a goldfish -
That is a good question. With so many different weapon systems on board a vessel, is there only one integrated management suit onboard to coordinate them all or are there many smaller suits operating autonomously?Originally posted by Fairyland:With all these sensors, how do you make them work together? -
With multiple suites, crew manning goes up? What about skills set and training.....more specialists? So the raw data is digitally processed only at the sensors or should there be one central parallel processor to fused them into one picture? Or a little of both?Originally posted by Laplace:That is a good question. With so many different weapon systems on board a vessel, is there only one integrated management suit onboard to coordinate them all or are there many smaller suits operating autonomously?
Anyone knows what's out there now?
What if these mini suites spread over multiple vessels for various tactical reasons then we are getting into the USN CEC thing! I think maybe FIST has a little of that? Minus underwater stuff.
Whoa......one can spend his whole live at this....... -
Originally posted by |-|05|:
Not too much experience! But they learned along the way, didn't they?
[b]
Yea but the USSR did not really have that much experience in Sub ops and in designing subs.Which the US already had.Infact i'm not even sure they even had any subs before that.Not too sure about that though.
b]
True, true, Russia didnt get into the business of subs earlier than US, but they sure did learn along the way.
During the Cold War, you sure didnt see US Subs being detailed to watch over other countries subs, only Soviet subs.
Do some more research. please.
By WWII, several countries already had submarines, only the most famous of which is germany. -
pix of a Sub Harpoon...
got this frm Royal Navy webby...:Fitted to the batch III type 22 Frigates and the type 23 Frigates, the Boeing (McDonnell Douglas) Harpoon is a sophisticated anti-ship missile using a combination of inertial guidance and active radar homing to attack targets out to a range of 130km. Cruising at Mach 0.9 and carrying a 227kg warhead it is powered by a lightweight turbojet, but is accelerated at launch by a booster rocket. A submarine launched version, known as Sub Harpoon, is also in service aboard the Swiftsure and Trafalgar class SSNs.
Tot Harpoon range is 90km?
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Er??I know most countries had subs but i think Russia did not bother.Infact i think after Japan destoryed their fleet they hardly built up any till ww2 ended!!!Originally posted by Johnston:Not too much experience! But they learned along the way, didn't they?
True, true, Russia didnt get into the business of subs earlier than US, but they sure did learn along the way.
During the Cold War, you sure didnt see US Subs being detailed to watch over other countries subs, only Soviet subs.
Do some more research. please.
By WWII, several countries already had submarines, only the most famous of which is germany.
And yes the Russians have learnt. -
To compare our SSKs with a 688, is like a shark next to a goldfish
dunno about the RSN SSKs, but i thought usually SSKs were much quieter than SSNs? btw the RSNs SSKs got carry missiles one meh? i din noe..
any good naval resource webby anyone knows? -
Actually, RSN SSK is the most sophiscated SSK in all asia minus China, India, Australia, Japan and Korea, Indonesia?Originally posted by sgFish:dunno about the RSN SSKs, but i thought usually SSKs were much quieter than SSNs? btw the RSNs SSKs got carry missiles one meh? i din noe..
any good naval resource webby anyone knows?
Do subs have to be so quiet in our waters? With all the ambient noise etc.
Best RSN tactic is to find a hole at sea bottom or something equivalent and sit there for 2 weeks. Read somewhere that SSK best viewed as a portable minefield.
Maybe there's a laptop to simulate missile launch and asses POK but of course the missiles will come later when RSN buy 688 or Seawolf next year.
Oh Changi Prison may probably buy Delta III subs too. Remove the missile tubes and put in cabins in place.
I saw some picts of the command suite.......not so integrated..... -
Above post is full of smoke.Originally posted by Fairyland:Actually, RSN SSK is the most sophiscated SSK in all asia minus China, India, Australia, Japan and Korea, Indonesia?
Do subs have to be so quiet in our waters? With all the ambient noise etc.
Best RSN tactic is to find a hole at sea bottom or something equivalent and sit there for 2 weeks. Read somewhere that SSK best viewed as a portable minefield.
Oh HDB may probably buy Delta III subs too. Remove the missile tubes and put in cabins in place for new housing estate.
I saw some picts of the command suite.......not so integrated.....
Sjoormen class SSKs the best in SEA? Nope.
SSK is indeed a portable minefield, good for a ADCAP to hit it.
Look at the speed. Look at the range/speed of our torps.
30kt max speed? A 688 would never be hit by it. -
LOL dude he said minus of every other country in this reigon with subs.....Originally posted by Johnston:Above post is full of smoke.
Sjoormen class SSKs the best in SEA? Nope.
SSK is indeed a portable minefield, good for a ADCAP to hit it.
Look at the speed. Look at the range/speed of our torps.
30kt max speed? A 688 would never be hit by it.
no wonder it's the best!! hahaha
And a 688 in our waters?! those guys have balls considering our depth is like 55m! barely even there for them to operate in haha
And our torps 30kts max? heh yea i guess those bloody 688(i)'s could out run them! -
Brudder in SEA , the sjoormen is the best sub. Wait till the Scorpene and the Agusta arrive , then we shall hold third position.Originally posted by Johnston:Above post is full of smoke.
Sjoormen class SSKs the best in SEA? Nope.
SSK is indeed a portable minefield, good for a ADCAP to hit it.
Look at the speed. Look at the range/speed of our torps.
30kt max speed? A 688 would never be hit by it.
It is also no point figuring out the positioning because no one know wat stuff DSTA intergrate in that tin can.. -
Actually SSKs is only quieter than SSNs when they operate on batteries alone, but they need to surface & charge up the batteries one awhile by the running the noiser diesel engines.Originally posted by sgFish:dunno about the RSN SSKs, but i thought usually SSKs were much quieter than SSNs? btw the RSNs SSKs got carry missiles one meh? i din noe..
any good naval resource webby anyone knows?
Below is good site for info on today navies:
http://www.hazegray.org/
CHARGE!!!
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Let me take this opportunity to tell you about the SSKs fielded by japan. Most if not all are new build subs.Originally posted by foxtrout8:Brudder in SEA , the sjoormen is the best sub. Wait till the Scorpene and the Agusta arrive , then we shall hold third position.
It is also no point figuring out the positioning because no one know wat stuff DSTA intergrate in that tin can..
Are you saying that subs built originally in the 60's, and refurbished in the 90's are superior to new subs? And built by japan, one of the few countries that has Aegis. And a buncha other US Tech, which we'd never see, or smell. F-15J's to start with.
So i see, DSTA has come up with a torpedo faster than ADCAP, or the Brit Spearfish? *Applauds* But the base speed of our torps is given as 30kts. Even if we take into account disinformation, and add 10kt to the max speed, a SSN has a even chance of evading our torps.
while however, there has yet to be a SSK that can go past 30kts, at least not without some doing by the crew. -
Oh is it? I didnt know our seas were so deep (LOriginally posted by |-|05|:And a 688 in our waters?! those guys have balls considering our depth is like 55m! barely even there for them to operate in haha And our torps 30kts max? heh yea i guess those bloody 688(i)'s could out run them!
)
Not to say 688, but even a Akula could do it with ease. Hell, even a November.
Well, i dont know. There's always Sub-harpoon for yonder sub snorkeling to recharge. -
Let me try this one on refurbished being superior to new subs - ok the electronics of course no way.Originally posted by Johnston:Let me take this opportunity to tell you about the SSKs fielded by japan. Most if not all are new build subs.
Are you saying that subs built originally in the 60's, and refurbished in the 90's are superior to new subs? And built by japan, one of the few countries that has Aegis. And a buncha other US Tech, which we'd never see, or smell. F-15J's to start with.
So i see, DSTA has come up with a torpedo faster than ADCAP, or the Brit Spearfish? *Applauds* But the base speed of our torps is given as 30kts. Even if we take into account disinformation, and add 10kt to the max speed, a SSN has a even chance of evading our torps.
while however, there has yet to be a SSK that can go past 30kts, at least not without some doing by the crew.
But the steel hull having been 'massage' in the depths of the cold oceans will actually be stronger? heh heh heh
Anyone can validate this?
Of course that don't do much for the sub. -
Read SEA. Japan in SEA?