An unmentioned death???
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Void Deck T-board surfaces a possible mindef related death but got no media coverage??? btw got time can oso head down to website to vote in the ministar awards 2003, for all the gahmen cock-ups this year ... ur vote counts!
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Last month was a public relations disaster for the Ministry of Defense. First, the boiling over of the death of 2SG Hu, followed by Minsta for Def's declaration that he would get to the bottom of the issue, then CD Fool's confession that there was a WH policy prior to 2000.
You'd think that the gahment would be true to their own words. Lo and behold, read this, courtesy of Insider:
http://forums.thevoiddeck.org/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=143
Thanks to the keen eye of Insider (yo brudder, what are you doing checking out the Obit section??), yet another unreported death... The obituary was dated 2nd December 2003 so go check it out for yourselves. PTE Muhammad Shafiq bin Farouk Piperdy. Apparently he passed away at Tekong's BMTC School 2, due to unknown reasons and circumstances. TVD flipped through the various dailies and found not a single article reporting his untimely demise.
Who's accounting for his death? Is the full explanation given to his parents, if not the public? Why isn't the gahment being transparent like they said they would? Meanwhile this incident will be honourably put up on the T-Board to yet again remind the gahment to be transparent.
When will the gahment learn that the citizens of Singapore aren't stupid anymore? There is only so much BS we can take. If you truly want to be transparent, act like it ...
Bo Zheng Hu
05.12.03
www.thevoiddeck.org -
i read the obituary on that day and asked my friend about it (in sch 2) but to no avail.. i think its non-military-related la
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heard abt a tekong incident as well.... was on the train at pasir ris...standing beside a few soldiers... overheard them saying that got one guy during POP.... throw hat that time.. slipped... cos raining, then he he hit head on the parade floor.
thats all i heard b4 the 3 of them alighted the train -
har?!Originally posted by Moonstriker:heard abt a tekong incident as well.... was on the train at pasir ris...standing beside a few soldiers... overheard them saying that got one guy during POP.... throw hat that time.. slipped... cos raining, then he he hit head on the parade floor.
thats all i heard b4 the 3 of them alighted the train
that's quite sad leh. 
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i dun agree tt every single incident shud be splashed all over the tabloids, esp for those "accidents" or "mishaps" tt are non-trg related.Originally posted by The Void Deck:Void Deck T-board surfaces a possible mindef related death but got no media coverage??? btw got time can oso head down to website to vote in the ministar awards 2003, for all the gahmen cock-ups this year ... ur vote counts!
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Last month was a public relations disaster for the Ministry of Defense. First, the boiling over of the death of 2SG Hu, followed by Minsta for Def's declaration that he would get to the bottom of the issue, then CD Fool's confession that there was a WH policy prior to 2000.
You'd think that the gahment would be true to their own words. Lo and behold, read this, courtesy of Insider:
http://forums.thevoiddeck.org/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=143
Thanks to the keen eye of Insider (yo brudder, what are you doing checking out the Obit section??), yet another unreported death... The obituary was dated 2nd December 2003 so go check it out for yourselves. PTE Muhammad Shafiq bin Farouk Piperdy. Apparently he passed away at Tekong's BMTC School 2, due to unknown reasons and circumstances. TVD flipped through the various dailies and found not a single article reporting his untimely demise.
Who's accounting for his death? Is the full explanation given to his parents, if not the public? Why isn't the gahment being transparent like they said they would? Meanwhile this incident will be honourably put up on the T-Board to yet again remind the gahment to be transparent.
When will the gahment learn that the citizens of Singapore aren't stupid anymore? There is only so much BS we can take. If you truly want to be transparent, act like it ...
Bo Zheng Hu
05.12.03
www.thevoiddeck.org
we shud also be sensitive to the closed ones of the deceased. they may not want the incident to be publicised.
don't think we want to alarm the public unnecessarily. -
yup, i agree. most ppl seem 2 assume tt deaths in d army r all trg related...Originally posted by wuming78:i dun agree tt every single incident shud be splashed all over the tabloids, esp for those "accidents" or "mishaps" tt are non-trg related.
we shud also be sensitive to the closed ones of the deceased. they may not want the incident to be publicised.
don't think we want to alarm the public unnecessarily. -
nothing wrong to question right?Originally posted by dead_clone:yup, i agree. most ppl seem 2 assume tt deaths in d army r all trg related...
but if its just an accident..just let it be bah.. -
nothing wrong questioning.Originally posted by NathanG5:nothing wrong to question right?
but if its just an accident..just let it be bah..
but no need to publicise everything. -
precisely..Originally posted by wuming78:nothing wrong questioning.
but no need to publicise everything.
but what if its another "accident" cause by some rogue instructor again?
is there the need to publicise if that happen? -
It is the continued mind set of over zealous Singapore Citizens - performing their duties as NSF or Regular Service Instructors, and doubting the actual physical state of the Singapore Citizen NSF Trainees - that need to be shaken and changed.
There seem to exist in the minds of these Singapore Citizen NSF or Regular Service Instructors that the Singaporean NSF Trainees will always attempt to malinger ( 'eating snakes' ) and will attempt to risk pushing the 'sick' trainees to perform.
Even the young and newly graduated Medical Doctors, performing their Singapore Citizen NSF duties, have not much way to discern whether a Trainee is malingering - (rubbing soap into eye to fake 'red eye' disease).
These young and newly graduated NSF Medical Doctors DO NOT have enough experience that some of the Reservist Medical Doctors (in Private Practise) have to send some Trainees will leg problems to see Orthopaedic Specialists. They do not even realise that normal X-Ray cannot pick out minor hairline fractures on the shin bones of Trainees, and that only a complete 3-D CT-Scan can pick out such fine hairline fractures that have been bothering and hampering a Trainee in his performance.
It is a 'clash of cultures' between the enthusiastic Singapore Citizen NSF or Regular Service Instructors, and the apprehensive Singapore Citizen NSF Trainees enlisted from the comfort of a civilian life.
Firstly, there need to be a change in attitude and training standards for the Instructors.
How many of these Instructors and Medical Officers are THROWN into their role as Instructors and Medical Officers, fresh from some other training from which they have recently graduated from ?
How many of them have been trained to be an Instructor, even if they have graduated as a Combat Leader ?
How many years of experience has our NSF Medical Officers have in General Practise before serving their role as NSF Doctors ?
Here lies the problems that are resulting in unnecessary 'accidents' that at times end tragically.
These observations are made from personal experiences. -
1. MOs are also wary of mis-diagnosing. it may cost them their career.Originally posted by Atobe:It is the continued mind set of over zealous Singapore Citizens - performing their duties as NSF or Regular Service Instructors, and doubting the actual physical state of the Singapore Citizen NSF Trainees - that need to be shaken and changed.
There seem to exist in the minds of these Singapore Citizen NSF or Regular Service Instructors that the Singaporean NSF Trainees will always attempt to malinger ( 'eating snakes' ) and will attempt to risk pushing the 'sick' trainees to perform.
Even the young and newly graduated Medical Doctors, performing their Singapore Citizen NSF duties, have not much way to discern whether a Trainee is malingering - (rubbing soap into eye to fake 'red eye' disease).
These young and newly graduated NSF Medical Doctors DO NOT have enough experience that some of the Reservist Medical Doctors (in Private Practise) have to send some Trainees will leg problems to see Orthopaedic Specialists. They do not even realise that normal X-Ray cannot pick out minor hairline fractures on the shin bones of Trainees, and that only a complete 3-D CT-Scan can pick out such fine hairline fractures that have been bothering and hampering a Trainee in his performance.
It is a 'clash of cultures' between the enthusiastic Singapore Citizen NSF or Regular Service Instructors, and the apprehensive Singapore Citizen NSF Trainees enlisted from the comfort of a civilian life.
Firstly, there need to be a change in attitude and training standards for the Instructors.
How many of these Instructors and Medical Officers are THROWN into their role as Instructors, fresh from some other training from which they have recently graduated from ?
How many of them have been trained to be an Instructor, even if they have graduated as a Combat Leader ?
How many years of experience has our NSF Medical Officers have in General Practise before serving their role as NSF Doctors ?
Here lies the problems that are resulting in unnecessary 'accidents' that at times end tragically.
These observations are made from personal experiences.
2. yes, nsf doctors largely do not have as much experience, since they are most likely to have graduated from med sch for only 1-2 yrs. this is a constraint we haf. but if we do not even give them the chance to be exposed cos they r inexperienced, they will never learn - the bad will become worse.
and precisely cos they are inexperienced, they r more likely to be even more careful in diagnosing. hence i do not agree tt the inexperienced will gloss over patients. its may in fact be the more experienced doctors who has seen his fair share of faked illnesses who is more likely to overlook symptoms.
3. if we want to get the more experienced doctors in as MOs, it means we haf to get them to resume and complete their ns liability much later in their careers. would this be fair to them, since tt is more likely to disrupt their careers outside?
4. as for instructors thrown into trg others even when they are fresh grads, its a fact of life - we all learn on our jobs.
5. but i agree wif u tt the mentality tt recruits r always out to circumvent the system must change. -
on the last part..yes it must change..but there are too many chao keng kias out there..too lenient..everyone will go chao keng n no one serve..Originally posted by wuming78:1. MOs are also wary of mis-diagnosing. it may cost them their career.
2. yes, nsf doctors largely do not have as much experience, since they are most likely to have graduated from med sch for only 1-2 yrs. this is a constraint we haf. but if we do not even give them the chance to be exposed cos they r inexperienced, they will never learn - the bad will become worse.
and precisely cos they are inexperienced, they r more likely to be even more careful in diagnosing. hence i do not agree tt the inexperienced will gloss over patients. its may in fact be the more experienced doctors who has seen his fair share of faked illnesses who is more likely to overlook symptoms.
3. if we want to get the more experienced doctors in as MOs, it means we haf to get them to resume and complete their ns liability much later in their careers. would this be fair to them, since tt is more likely to disrupt their careers outside?
4. as for instructors thrown into trg others even when they are fresh grads, its a fact of life - we all learn on our jobs.
5. but i agree wif u tt the mentality tt recruits r always out to circumvent the system must change.
if too strict..might misdiagnose n cos death..
any way out? -
Has the SAF NSF Doctors completed their 'housemanship' before being enlisted into National Service; or are the Captain rank planted on their shoulders upon completing their 4 year Medical Course from the University, with the 'housemanship' being concluded at the SAF Medical Centre with total independence ?Originally posted by wuming78:1. MOs are also wary of mis-diagnosing. it may cost them their career.
2. yes, nsf doctors largely do not have as much experience, since they are most likely to have graduated from med sch for only 1-2 yrs. this is a constraint we haf. but if we do not even give them the chance to be exposed cos they r inexperienced, they will never learn - the bad will become worse.
and precisely cos they are inexperienced, they r more likely to be even more careful in diagnosing. hence i do not agree tt the inexperienced will gloss over patients. its may in fact be the more experienced doctors who has seen his fair share of faked illnesses who is more likely to overlook symptoms.
3. if we want to get the more experienced doctors in as MOs, it means we haf to get them to resume and complete their ns liability much later in their careers. would this be fair to them, since tt is more likely to disrupt their careers outside?
4. as for instructors thrown into trg others even when they are fresh grads, its a fact of life - we all learn on our jobs.
5. but i agree wif u tt the mentality tt recruits r always out to circumvent the system must change.
It is obvious that the best for the SAF cannot be compromised, and if Doctors are serving their internship in the SAF Medical Centres, surely the SAF Soldiers deserve a higher standard of medical attention then from inexperienced doctors.
Surely the minimum rank of Captain for a Medical Graduate is far too senior for an inexperienced person undergoing training ?
In most SAF Medical Centres, these young doctors act as any other General Practictioners attending to the simple daily illnesses - such as flu, cold, coughs, skin problems, aches, rashes, pains in the joints.
As General Practictioners they are hardly specialists in any field of medicine, and have basic and limited knowledge that qualify them only as Medical General Practictioners.
From their inexperience, they will need the immediate and close supervision of more senior SAF, or Reservist, or Civil Medical Officers to act as their Consultants.
However, for this to work, the inexperienced NSF Medical Officer will need the patient guidance of senior Medical Officers, some of whom can be abrasive for the demands made on their limited and profitable time.
It is not a question of fairness if we want to get the more experienced doctors in the SAF, even if "it means we haf to get them to resume and complete their ns liability much later in their careers".
It is a question of serving the National Service mid-way in their medical training and being recruited BEFORE intership experience, and having the SAF recruit inexperience doctors; or allowing the Medical Students to complete their entire medical training that include 'internship' or 'housemanship' before qualifying as Doctors, and serving the SAF as such.
The SAF and the soldiers will deservingly obtain experienced and truly qualified Doctors, who will be more then willing to complete their entire medical education before being called up, instead of being called up
From two frightening medical incidences over the last five years, I am doubtful of the standards of the young and inexperienced NSF Medical Officers acting as General Practitioners, risking the lives of other NSF men as guinea pigs for the advancement of their own career experience and development.
The system of recruiting, supervising, and training the SAF Medical Officers needs to be completely reviewed, if they are actually practising their 'internship' or 'housemanship' while serving their National Service in the SAF. -
please be rest assured that the housemanship can be considered part of the med course, and yes, all new doctors have to go thru their housemanship, before they are actualli considered true blue doctors. and they complete their housemanship before resuming their services with the armed forces.Originally posted by Atobe:Has the SAF NSF Doctors completed their 'housemanship' before being enlisted into National Service; or are the Captain rank planted on their shoulders upon completing their 4 year Medical Course from the University, with the 'housemanship' being concluded at the SAF Medical Centre with total independence ?
It is obvious that the best for the SAF cannot be compromised, and if Doctors are serving their internship in the SAF Medical Centres, surely the minimum rank of Captain for a Medical Graduate is far too senior for an inexperienced person ?
In most SAF Medical Centres, these young doctors act as any other General Practictioners to attend to the simple daily flu, cold, coughs, skin problems, aches, rashes, pains in the joints.
As General Practictioners they are hardly specialists in any field of medicine, and have basic and limited knowledge that qualify them only as Medical General Practictioners.
Coupled with their inexperience, they will need the supervision of more senior SAF, or Reservist, or Civil Medical Officers to act as their Consultants.
However, for this to work, the inexperience NSF Medical Officer will need the patient guidance of senior Medical Officers, some of whom can be abrasive for the demands made on their time.
From two frightening medical incidences over the last three years, I am doubtful of the standards of the young and inexperienced NSF Medical Officers acting as General Practitioners, risking the lives of other NSF men as guinea pigs for the advancement of their own career development.
The system of recruiting, supervising, and training the SAF Medical Officers needs to be completely reviewed, if they are actually practising their 'internship' or 'housemanship' while serving their National Service in the SAF.
the rank of CPT for the MO, i think, is largely for operational and estab purposes, and not his experience in his field relative to the experiences of the other officers in their related fields.
i understand and share ur concern for our soldiers' health and medical coverage. but i am oso concerned abt over-reacting or knee jerk reactions to the spate of recent incidents.
how many cases are there each yr where the MOs misdiagnose? how many cases of such misdiagnosis were by young MOs and due to their inexperience? think we need hard evidence rather than anecdotal ones.
human life is important, and for one life to be lost due to misdiagnosis is one too many. we should do all we can to prevent such incidents. but there are other systems in place currently to support this.
and im not comfortable wif ur sweeping statement tt the NSF MOs are risking "the lives of other NSF men as guinea pigs for the advancement of their own career development." if they indeed are concerned with their career development, they wont choose to go thru this NSF route if they haf a choice. -
i feel that young MOs seem more enthusiastic in their job.
i don't remember much about the MO that inspected me 4 years ago, but the young MO i met last month seemed quite concern about my just-healed bone fracture and told me to report any pain no matter how insignificant in future.
coincidentally, he trained under the NUH doctor (or assistant professor) that diagnosed and performed surgery on me. -
yo wuming :
Your points are totally valid. Certainly agree that irresponsible publicising is not desirable. We had a tip from a forummer, we tried to scan the newspapers, check out the net for any mention and found nothing. So we put up something and wonder ... We are glad to see some bros in this forum explaining "what really happened", the bros' explanation seems reasonable, it appears to be a totally freak accident and so Mindef is not at fault in this instance then. But what if ... it was another 2Sg Hu case? No one publicises it, it gets "covered", how do we prevent this abuse from occurring? To get to the stage of worrying about irresponsible publication, we must have a culture of open publication first, i guess ... anyway thanks for your responses; this is a great forum, arguments are sensible and this kind of spirit is whats needed for Singapore and which is what our site is aiming for.
laterz
Lau Ah Pek -
thanks!Originally posted by The Void Deck:yo wuming :
Your points are totally valid. Certainly agree that irresponsible publicising is not desirable. We had a tip from a forummer, we tried to scan the newspapers, check out the net for any mention and found nothing. So we put up something and wonder ... We are glad to see some bros in this forum explaining "what really happened", the bros' explanation seems reasonable, it appears to be a totally freak accident and so Mindef is not at fault in this instance then. But what if ... it was another 2Sg Hu case? No one publicises it, it gets "covered", how do we prevent this abuse from occurring? To get to the stage of worrying about irresponsible publication, we must have a culture of open publication first, i guess ... anyway thanks for your responses; this is a great forum, arguments are sensible and this kind of spirit is whats needed for Singapore and which is what our site is aiming for.
laterz
Lau Ah Pek
in the end wat gets publicised depends on if the media finds it newsworthy.
i feel tt yes, being transparent is good, but 1. we mus be sensitive to the relatives and friends of the deceased. they may not want the publicity. 2. we mus know why we are publicising. in the case of the recent incident, its clear there were some wrongdoings, and publicising in fact was correct - in a way, the media became the "finger pointer", the fourth estate if you would, tt forms the check and balance to the system.
but if the purpose of publicising is to sensationalise, to sway, and for economic purposes, then i really would beg to differ.
pls continue to post discussion topics, and do share ur viewpoints too!
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yea will participate more indeed .. sometimes our crew gets too tired sieving for gems in the local net to participate ... hehe oni 4 of us doing this so ... anyway this is not an advertisement but if you or other members in this thread wanna contribute articles to our site juz send in to our box at [email protected], we try to give people in the local Net a voice. laterz Lau Ah Pek