government worried about shortage of male birth?
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Hahaha!Originally posted by |-|05|:yea and pay 55% for income tax
I was hoping that someone would point that out...well then, let's see....
How much do you pay for cost of living in S'pore? for example, groceries, public transport, or even nightlife for that matter?
How much do you pay for a HDB flat that doesn't belong to you at the end of the day?
How much do you pay for a COE and the car itself for only ten years?
How much do you pay for university education in NUS/NTU?
How much do you pay for hospitalization or healthcare for that matter?
The point I'm trying to make is this: you may think that taxes are lower in S'pore and its a good thing...but don't forget...cost of living does not match up to salaries. So what you dun see being deducted from your salary directly through taxes, will be taken away elsewhere. So you may hold hard cash in your hands, but how long and how much is left?
True, taxes may be higher here (btw, its not 55%...the max tax bracket is 50%, but that's if you make a ton of $$$). But I know that I'm getting something back in return...highly subsidized healthcare, social safety nets, and affordable tertiary education for my offsprings...when I have them. Plus, I get tax rebates and if you know how to do your taxes and find the loopholes, you actually get back a back a sizable chunk of it. -
Well said Tango1, unfortunately thats the misconception many uninformed Singaporeans have about the system thats in place in countries like Australia and Canada.Originally posted by Tango1:Hahaha! I was hoping that someone would point that out...well then, let's see....
How much do you pay for cost of living in S'pore? for example, groceries, public transport, or even nightlife for that matter?
How much do you pay for a HDB flat that doesn't belong to you at the end of the day?
How much do you pay for a COE and the car itself for only ten years?
How much do you pay for university education in NUS/NTU?
How much do you pay for hospitalization or healthcare for that matter?
The point I'm trying to make is this: you may think that taxes are lower in S'pore and its a good thing...but don't forget...cost of living does not match up to salaries. So what you dun see being deducted from your salary directly through taxes, will be taken away elsewhere. So you may hold hard cash in your hands, but how long and how much is left?
True, taxes may be higher here (btw, its not 55%...the max tax bracket is 50%, but that's if you make a ton of $$$). But I know that I'm getting something back in return...highly subsidized healthcare, social safety nets, and affordable tertiary education for my offsprings...when I have them. Plus, I get tax rebates and if you know how to do your taxes and find the loopholes, you actually get back a back a sizable chunk of it.
We always hear about the locals in these countries moan about high taxes etc.But yet why do they still go on contributing instead of sitting there and accepting handouts, or voting to dismantle the welfare state altogether? In fact Sweden even voted for higher taxes in return for retaining their welfare state! Why? Because these people know that they are paying these taxes for a reason and they know that one day, they will be the ones enjoying the benefits. Low to free education for kids up to university, extensive low-cost healthcare benefits, an ability to lead a relatively comfortable lifestyle from welfare should they be infirm or retired in recognition of the past contributions to society. Enough to get by should they be out of a job.
When people claim our system is superior, have we seen what kind of lifestyle the elderly in Singapore lead if they have no-one to take care of them when they are old? What kind of recognition do they get in return for their part in making Singaproe what it is today?
I was a detractor of the welfare state until I went over and saw what it was about. Then I understood what "Fair Go" in an Australian context meant.
Talk about opening one's eyes and realising what a goldfish bowl one's existence was before. -
I have lived in Australia before and I hated it. While a welfare state is nice for the average person, it is terrible for the high flyers. You will be dragged down if you are a go-getter. Your success will be stripped from you, by being forced to pay for things you yourself do not use or want, and for mistakes that other people made. In Singapore, at least I know I personally will use what my taxes pay for. You can't fall in a socialist society, but you can't shine either. That is why cool, cruel capitalism has produced all the bright stars of the modern world.Originally posted by Viper52:Well said Tango1, unfortunately thats the misconception many uninformed Singaporeans have about the system thats in place in countries like Australia and Canada.
We always hear about the locals in these countries moan about high taxes etc.But yet why do they still go on contributing instead of sitting there and accepting handouts, or voting to dismantle the welfare state altogether? In fact Sweden even voted for higher taxes in return for retaining their welfare state! Why? Because these people know that they are paying these taxes for a reason and they know that one day, they will be the ones enjoying the benefits. Low to free education for kids up to university, extensive low-cost healthcare benefits, an ability to lead a relatively comfortable lifestyle from welfare should they be infirm or retired in recognition of the past contributions to society. Enough to get by should they be out of a job.
When people claim our system is superior, have we seen what kind of lifestyle the elderly in Singapore lead if they have no-one to take care of them when they are old? What kind of recognition do they get in return for their part in making Singaproe what it is today?
I was a detractor of the welfare state until I went over and saw what it was about. Then I understood what "Fair Go" in an Australian context meant.
Talk about opening one's eyes and realising what a goldfish bowl one's existence was before.
In the end, that is why we reject the welfare state. We want a country that encourages people to excel, by making it unbearable to do anything but. We want a country where if you don't climb, you will be shit on from above. We want a lean, mean and angry culture, where everyone fights desperately to win because the alternative is suffering and humiliation. We want a system where if you don't plan ahead, you will lead your old age in agony. Why? Because that is reality and we should not shield adults from it like children. Nations that do not compete simply die. So should individuals. The world is not a bed of roses.
If you don't want to live in such a culture, then "quit". Unlike the government, I think that's a valid choice. Move somewhere where life is easier, but be prepared to be nothing more than an average schmuck for the rest of your life. Expect your children to also be average schmucks for their rest of their lives, and their children too. If you can even call that "life".
In the end, it comes down to personal responsiblity and justice. You should reap exactly what you sow. In a welfare state, that is no longer true. That is nice for those who don't sow much, but really sucks for those who sow more. I want more. I like to fight. I like to win. I want the potential to fail. I want to worry. I want to struggle. I want to live, not merely exist.
The problem of course, is that depending on your definition of "winning", this kind of culture may reduce birthrates. I personally want heirs. It is one of my goals. But this is not true for everyone. A more relaxed culture allows people to explore more avenues in their lives, including the bearing of children. Should Singapore ease up? Maybe, but not too much IMHO. I think people need to define success more broadly and personally, but should still be encouraged to pursue success. We will see what this "total solution" (at least he didn't call it a "final solution" ) will be. -
And judging by the number of self-made millionaires that have come out from countries with a purported "welfare state" or which you describe as socialist society, doesn't it mean that both can exist together?Originally posted by dkhoo:You can't fall in a socialist society, but you can't shine either. That is why cool, cruel capitalism has produced all the bright stars of the modern world.
As for high taxes, sure, you get taxed more, especially if you are in the higher income brackets. But at the end of the day, your take home and disposable income is more, your dollar stretches further, you get actual tangible benefits of paying taxes and when the day comes that you're retired, you'll be taken care of.
Why thank you, thats exactly what I plan to do.
We want a system where if you don't plan ahead, you will lead your old age in agony.
[/quote]
But the reality here is that no matter how much you plan, you might end up with not having enough to ensure you do not lead your old age in agony.
If you don't want to live in such a culture, then "quit".
Thats where you are wrong my friend. Because of a more forgiving and less judgemental society, it is actually a place where hard work could actually get you further than you ever could in Singapore. Of course, having good family connections, being born to a rich family and going to top schools help. Just look at Bill Gates and Herb Kelleher (SouthWest Airlines). Could they have got to the top in Singapore? A look at Sim Wong Hoo's treatment by the government when he was starting out should tell you the answer.
Move somewhere where life is easier, but be prepared to be nothing more than an average schmuck for the rest of your life. Expect your children to also be average schmucks for their rest of their lives, and their children too. If you can even call that "life".
In Singapore we have a lot of degree holders who lack the riches and connections in their families, those are the very personification of who you define as "average schmucks" or whom a local journalist referred to as "Second-lower brigade". They struggle with an ever shrinking paycheck, CPF account to make payments for an overpriced pigeon hole till they're in their 40s (if they're lucky). And guess what, they work their socks off!So I guess that all those unemployed in Singapore are reaping exactly what they sowed? Because your point so far, has been to emphasize that Singapore's system is one that is fair and just and where rewards are in proportion to their input.
You should reap exactly what you sow. In a welfare state, that is no longer true.
You can do that anywhere. The difference comes when your potential to fail is realised and then you see the difference in the help you get to pick yourself up again.
That is nice for those who don't sow much, but really sucks for those who sow more. I want more. I like to fight. I like to win. I want the potential to fail. I want to worry. I want to struggle. I want to live, not merely exist.[quote]Of course, do you see any statements where people are encouraged to fail in Canada or Australia? The difference is that failure does not mark you with a stigma in these countries, and the definition of success is different from what we have here.
The problem of course, is that depending on your definition of "winning", this kind of culture may reduce birthrates. I personally want heirs. It is one of my goals. But this is not true for everyone. A more relaxed culture allows people to explore more avenues in their lives, including the bearing of children. Should Singapore ease up? Maybe, but not too much IMHO. I think people need to define success more broadly and personally, but should still be encouraged to pursue success. -
Of course there are successful people in countries which are more socialist. But the plural of anecdote is not data. You cannot deny that the barrier to success is higher there, though the aid given to you when you fall is also greater. The most open and least socialist societies have succeeded most in generating wealth for everyone. Look at Singapore, Hong Kong, S. Korea and Taiwan, and consider their humble beginnings.
In the end, Australia's economy is weak, as is Canada's. Europe as a whole is even worse off. All suffer from falling or stagnant real stadards of living. If you think the economic situation in Singapore is bad, you obviously have not lived elsewhere or know people who live elsewhere. If 6-7% unemployment is "bad" to you, you need to open your eyes. Try getting a good job in Australia. Try getting a good job in Canada. Ask people who live there how the law gets in the way, above and beyond the state of the economy, then come back and talk. I think we are a nation of whiners who have never seen a really bad situation. Your fishbowl comment is spot on, though the wrong way round.
Truth is, life doesn't magically become better in a socialist society. A bad economy is a bad economy. You can only spread your butter so far before simply you have too much bread. You can't hand out benefits to your citizenry you can't afford.
As for the need for connections in Singapore: you think it isn't different elsewhere? And do you really think that is true in Singapore? My own father has no connections, no degree and was bankrupt about a decade ago, even serving a short term in debtor's prison due to some terrible mistakes. My family rebuilt everything from scratch, faxing documents from the neighbor's machine, living in our uncle's home, making grenade pins all night in the living room for ST, delivering equipment ourselves in between schoolwork and tuition, later building telecommunication servers by hand.
Fast forward to 2003. Now the family company has annual revenues of more than a million dollars. We have our own house, two cars and a maid. I am a scholar, my sister will soon be a lawyer, and my father is a grassroots leader and has headed a few national committees. This is from bankruptcy and prison, with still no degree, no connections, not even a home at first. We had a few lucky breaks, but in the end, what mattered was that the playing field was level and my father was a fighter.
So don't give me nonsense about The Man holding you down. Don't tell me about a lack of opportunities in Singapore, or class warfare. Don't give me the old saw about the system being unforgiving. Because I have seen it is not true as long as you have a backbone.
I have lived elsewhere since then and I know we could not have done it elsewhere. The law would have gotten in the way. You need this to get a loan, that to get a grant. You must be of this race, or have not worked for that long. You cannot have been in prison or bankrupt if you want to do that. Your new business must pay this much tax and that much fees, besides giving your employees this much benefits. That is what is really unforgiving. Singapore is really so much better. Why do you think the phenomenon of long-term joblessness is much more prevelent elsewhere despite the so-called "help" you get to get back on your feet? Because it only will help you up to a point where you are on life support. Then you are trapped. That is what I meant by "average schmuck".
So take your privileged Singaporean self and look elsewhere and compare. Get out of this fishbowl and look carefully before talking. You'll be surprised at what you take for granted. -
i beg to differ.. IHO ,look @ britain's social welfare system..today its costing billions..it makes the citizen reluctant to work when u give out $..look at singapore although a ex britain colony ..it didnt follow the system..although we followed the education system and stuff..why?becoz we learn from their experience
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I hope that nobody would not have realized by now that Singaporean soceity and education are not geared towards producing sucessful people, but rather designed to bash, hammer and brutalize the average Tan into another dehumanized cog in the machine called Singapore .Inc designed to serve the upper class of the WICOs (Wealthy Important Connected Ones).
Singaporeans in general have very basal, shallow inspirations, are generally apathic and take whatever grevious insult that is dished onto them, generally unquestioning and unconcerned to the way Big Bro. pulls their strings and clamps down on their individuality (ironically this same system implores them to cultivate individuality that would be solely useful to them), all the while stuck in the gar'men created Matrix of of getting the 5Cs and struggling making ends meet all the while unaware that they are just human batteries supporting the affulent and comfortable lifestyles of the WICOs.
Enter the Singamatrix.
For a long time I would not believe it, but then I saw the fields with my own eyes, there are fields... endless fields, where children are no longer educated, they are dehumanized. All this to turn a creative human individual a unquestioning, machine that is just a small part in the larger scheme of Singapore Inc. whose indivdual destinies and aspirations are irrevelant.
Whoever said the outside world would be better? But maybe that world is a real world, a world where you can be who you can be. We can all take the blue pill, wake up in our bed, and believe whatever we want to believe, but I choose to take the red pill, and take on the responsibility of thinking for myself and see how deep the Singaporean rabbit hole really goes. -
Hooray! One up to you man. You have told my story.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I hope that nobody would not have realized by now that Singaporean soceity and education are not geared towards producing sucessful people, but rather designed to bash, hammer and brutalize the average Tan into another dehumanized cog in the machine called Singapore .Inc designed to serve the upper class of the WICOs (Wealthy Important Connected Ones).
Singaporeans in general have very basal, shallow inspirations, are generally apathic and take whatever grevious insult that is dished onto them, generally unquestioning and unconcerned to the way Big Bro. pulls their strings and clamps down on their individuality (ironically this same system implores them to cultivate individuality that would be solely useful to them), all the while stuck in the gar'men created Matrix of of getting the 5Cs and struggling making ends meet all the while unaware that they are just human batteries supporting the affulent and comfortable lifestyles of the WICOs.
Enter the Singamatrix.
For a long time I would not believe it, but then I saw the fields with my own eyes, there are fields... endless fields, where children are no longer educated, they are dehumanized. All this to turn a creative human individual a unquestioning, machine that is just a small part in the larger scheme of Singapore Inc. whose indivdual destinies and aspirations are irrevelant.
Whoever said the outside world would be better? But maybe that world is a real world, a world where you can be who you can be. We can all take the blue pill, wake up in our bed, and believe whatever we want to believe, but I choose to take the red pill, and take on the responsibility of thinking for myself and see how deep the Singaporean rabbit hole really goes.
I was considered "trouble maker" in secondary school because something in me just didnt believe that there is only one standard answer to a question. But I was hammered, stonewalled and put down for my quest of knowledge. Then I called it quits and went abroad to study (top U in Canada), but when I came back, they said that my degree is second to an NUS degree. Again, the stonewalling came from the govt sector, local banks and likes. Finally, I said no more and went abroad to pursue a career. In other markets, people dont really give a shit about whether you are straight As or MBA or not, what is more important is whether you can deliver results. After working in 3 markets, whenever a headhunter call me up and ask me if I want to work in Singapore, I give them a straight NO WAY JOSE!
Now I am happily living in China and I always joke with my Chinese colleagues: "You call yourselves socialist? Ha, you havent seen the real thing" -
Let me make those staying in spore rethink:Originally posted by Tango1:Hahaha! I was hoping that someone would point that out...well then, let's see....
How much do you pay for cost of living in S'pore? for example, groceries, public transport, or even nightlife for that matter?
How much do you pay for a HDB flat that doesn't belong to you at the end of the day?
How much do you pay for a COE and the car itself for only ten years?
How much do you pay for university education in NUS/NTU?
How much do you pay for hospitalization or healthcare for that matter?
The point I'm trying to make is this: you may think that taxes are lower in S'pore and its a good thing...but don't forget...cost of living does not match up to salaries. So what you dun see being deducted from your salary directly through taxes, will be taken away elsewhere. So you may hold hard cash in your hands, but how long and how much is left?
True, taxes may be higher here (btw, its not 55%...the max tax bracket is 50%, but that's if you make a ton of $$$). But I know that I'm getting something back in return...highly subsidized healthcare, social safety nets, and affordable tertiary education for my offsprings...when I have them. Plus, I get tax rebates and if you know how to do your taxes and find the loopholes, you actually get back a back a sizable chunk of it.
Bought a bungalow in Shanghai for S$200,000 one and half year ago. Now it is valued at S$450,000.
Bought a brand new VW PASSAT for S$50,000.
MRT trip S$0.20
Casual lunch box at the office S$2. Big bowl of noodles S$1.20.
Cigarette per pack S$0.80
Night out with pals in a trendy bar 6 bottles of Tiger beer S$20.
Dinner at nice Chinese restaurant 5 dishes (exclude seafood): S$20-30.
Eat your heat out.
You can escape income tax by declaring some portion as allowances. Better still if you are a business owner, you can use the company to pay for almost everything including groceries which can be logged as corporate expenses. Get shelter from your real profits too. -
hmmm...nice...so according to your reasoning, you posit that capitalism, or rather, the classical liberal ideal, based on Adam Smith's conception of the free market, would automatically generate wealth for everyone? Funny how the top welfare states have also produced some of the top MNCs in the world. Ikea? why, its from Sweden! Nortel? From Canada! Volkswagen? From Germany! Funny how come the founders of these companies never felt like success was 'stripped' from them.Originally posted by dkhoo:I have lived in Australia before and I hated it. While a welfare state is nice for the average person, it is terrible for the high flyers. You will be dragged down if you are a go-getter. Your success will be stripped from you, by being forced to pay for things you yourself do not use or want, and for mistakes that other people made. In Singapore, at least I know I personally will use what my taxes pay for. You can't fall in a socialist society, but you can't shine either. That is why cool, cruel capitalism has produced all the bright stars of the modern world.
On the other hand, since Singapore is considered one of the 'capitalist paradise', how come we haven't seen the rise of any big multinational firm that is homegrown, apart from Creative Technologies?
ahh...misconception here again. Life isn't any easier than you think it is in S'pore. Competition is just as fierce here too. Almost everyone is as well-educated as each other, since the socialist system provides everyone with an equal opportunity to tertiary education. Funny how come people here too have enuff drive to innovate...so by moving overseas, we become schmucks? The vice-president of Yahoo, who is a former S'porean, must be a damn big schmuck...so is the former director of IMCB, whom the S'pore gov't actually 'requested' (or rather, begged) for him to return from Canada to head the institute...wow...talk about schmuck existence overseas huh?
In the end, that is why we reject the welfare state. We want a country that encourages people to excel, by making it unbearable to do anything but. We want a country where if you don't climb, you will be shit on from above. We want a lean, mean and angry culture, where everyone fights desperately to win because the alternative is suffering and humiliation. We want a system where if you don't plan ahead, you will lead your old age in agony. Why? Because that is reality and we should not shield adults from it like children. Nations that do not compete simply die. So should individuals. The world is not a bed of roses. [/quote]
so after having rejected the welfare state 38 years ago, have we actually reached that level of excellence that matches the big capitalist giants like the U.S. and Western Europe? So how come we are no longer experiencing the kind of economic growth that our parents enjoyed? Logically speaking, even if you plan ahead in S'pore, the reality is that we are still gonna face a crisis in the future. The average S'porean in our generation is gonna end up with an average of $10'000 left for retirement, after paying for flats, and all that 3-letter acronyms around S'pore, etcetera...that's gov't report...you can check it up in the ST archives....
If you don't want to live in such a culture, then "quit". Unlike the government, I think that's a valid choice. Move somewhere where life is easier, but be prepared to be nothing more than an average schmuck for the rest of your life. Expect your children to also be average schmucks for their rest of their lives, and their children too. If you can even call that "life". dude...that's simplistic thinking...there are always pros and cons to every system...keep an open mind when you travel... 
Again, you are assuming that the welfare state simply hands out $$ to people that don't wanna work. It was in the initial beginning...but the welfare system has worked out most of its kinks. I can tell you that you are better off working than collecting welfare, since it is nothing more than subsistence. Having the welfare state doesn't mean that people are necessarily lazy, although I do admit that it does exist to a certain degree. But empirically, it has been shown that there are more people working than on welfare. Do you thikn you actually reap what yo sow in S'pore? you only think that you do....S'porean workers have one of the lowest wages per capita in the world. And we are highly educated too, but we get paid peanuts as compared to our peers in other states...funny how come we are existing and not living in S'pore now....
In the end, it comes down to personal responsiblity and justice. You should reap exactly what you sow. In a welfare state, that is no longer true. That is nice for those who don't sow much, but really sucks for those who sow more. I want more. I like to fight. I like to win. I want the potential to fail. I want to worry. I want to struggle. I want to live, not merely exist.[quote]The capitalist culture reduces birthrates? Or the socialist-democratic culture reduces birthrates? Either ways, birthrates are declining worldwide in 1st world states... anyway, on to your next post...
The problem of course, is that depending on your definition of "winning", this kind of culture may reduce birthrates. I personally want heirs. It is one of my goals. But this is not true for everyone. A more relaxed culture allows people to explore more avenues in their lives, including the bearing of children. Should Singapore ease up? Maybe, but not too much IMHO. I think people need to define success more broadly and personally, but should still be encouraged to pursue success. We will see what this "total solution" (at least he didn't call it a "final solution" ) will be. -
Look out the bright side, at least, guys can have more choices of gf...
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I'm afraid that's only your own thoughts.Originally posted by Viper52:...the definition of success is different from what we have here.
Definition of success depends on who it's from.
1) Definition from the weak, common, vulgar, licentious crowd - being wealthy $$$
2) Definition from your heart - Devote your life for what you believe in. -
ahhh...I thought you thrive on competition like a true capitalist? Then you shouldn't be afraid of higher barriers then...a true capitalist will fight in the sea of competition and try to come up as a winner. That's what S'poreans need to do....go out there and face the sharks...Originally posted by dkhoo:Of course there are successful people in countries which are more socialist. But the plural of anecdote is not data. You cannot deny that the barrier to success is higher there, though the aid given to you when you fall is also greater. The most open and least socialist societies have succeeded most in generating wealth for everyone. Look at Singapore, Hong Kong, S. Korea and Taiwan, and consider their humble beginnings.
In the end, Australia's economy is weak, as is Canada's. Europe as a whole is even worse off. All suffer from falling or stagnant real stadards of living. If you think the economic situation in Singapore is bad, you obviously have not lived elsewhere or know people who live elsewhere. If 6-7% unemployment is "bad" to you, you need to open your eyes. Try getting a good job in Australia. Try getting a good job in Canada. Ask people who live there how the law gets in the way, above and beyond the state of the economy, then come back and talk. I think we are a nation of whiners who have never seen a really bad situation. Your fishbowl comment is spot on, though the wrong way round.
Truth is, life doesn't magically become better in a socialist society. A bad economy is a bad economy. You can only spread your butter so far before simply you have too much bread. You can't hand out benefits to your citizenry you can't afford.
As for the need for connections in Singapore: you think it isn't different elsewhere? And do you really think that is true in Singapore? My own father has no connections, no degree and was bankrupt about a decade ago, even serving a short term in debtor's prison due to some terrible mistakes. My family rebuilt everything from scratch, faxing documents from the neighbor's machine, living in our uncle's home, making grenade pins all night in the living room for ST, delivering equipment ourselves in between schoolwork and tuition, later building telecommunication servers by hand.
Fast forward to 2003. Now the family company has annual revenues of more than a million dollars. We have our own house, two cars and a maid. I am a scholar, my sister will soon be a lawyer, and my father is a grassroots leader and has headed a few national committees. This is from bankruptcy and prison, with still no degree, no connections, not even a home at first. We had a few lucky breaks, but in the end, what mattered was that the playing field was level and my father was a fighter.
So don't give me nonsense about The Man holding you down. Don't tell me about a lack of opportunities in Singapore, or class warfare. Don't give me the old saw about the system being unforgiving. Because I have seen it is not true as long as you have a backbone.
I have lived elsewhere since then and I know we could not have done it elsewhere. The law would have gotten in the way. You need this to get a loan, that to get a grant. You must be of this race, or have not worked for that long. You cannot have been in prison or bankrupt if you want to do that. Your new business must pay this much tax and that much fees, besides giving your employees this much benefits. That is what is really unforgiving. Singapore is really so much better. Why do you think the phenomenon of long-term joblessness is much more prevelent elsewhere despite the so-called "help" you get to get back on your feet? Because it only will help you up to a point where you are on life support. Then you are trapped. That is what I meant by "average schmuck".
So take your privileged Singaporean self and look elsewhere and compare. Get out of this fishbowl and look carefully before talking. You'll be surprised at what you take for granted.
In citing your examples of the four states, you have forgotten that they are all NICs. They all boomed in an era when China was still a sleeping giant. Secondly, these NICs came about in the post-WWII period when there was little competition from other developing states and the economy was growing...Third, these states depended on ISI (with the exception of S'pore since we have no natural resources) to actually prop their domestic sector in the initial stage, so isn't that anti-capitalistic in nature? Your case selection essentially sets up a 'straw man' argument already.
Funny how come people from these countries haven't left in droves too...what's your definition of a 'good job?' A poly grad starting out earns about the same salary (+ 200 to 300 dollars more) now as compared to 8 years ago, but inflation has skyrocketed...real income has in fact fallen. That doesn't even come close to meeting the rate of inflation...look at our NUS/NTU grads...now working as cabbies, waiters, sales staff, mainly p/t work, with little or no benefits...'good jobs' huh?
1st-world economies don't grow as much as developing countries. That's an economic fact. But developing states are simply cheaper, that's all. It effectively allows itself to be exploited for cheap labour and/or raw materials. However, that doesn't last forever...when your labour gets too expensive, MNCs simply pack up and move... Singapore cannot be placed in the developing state category anymore. Its simply too expensive...
True, life does not magically become better in a socialist-democratic society. But at least there are some safety nets in place. It at least prevents the growth of an underclass in society, which in turn, would cost you more in the future. Point is, with some social safety nets in place, the population can be properly sustained. Kids don't have to give up their educational aspirations just because times are hard. When the economy improves, there is a ready pool of talent to tap into already
Lastly, you think that life automatically becomes better in a capitalist society too? That there are no winners and losers? Capitalism necessarily creates winners and losers; ths tends to fall along ethnic and socio-economic classes. Having a socialist-democratic system allows for equal opportunity to essential goods and services that provides a level playing field. The individual just takes off from there.
With regards to your family history, you have first, a fortiori assumed that because your family succeeded, others are therefore should be able to follow your path. This by itself is a fallacious assumption already, since you have left out the fact that there are a whole host of factors that affect individuals differently. Second, I take my hat off to your father for coming so far, but this is still anecdotal. Generalizations made from anectdotal evidence is kinda hard to apply in reality.
Singapore is still a young state in the developed nations category. Let's see how its economy would be like in another 20 yrs before we make further comparisons
The reason why there are rules like the ones you describe (with the exception of race, which I'll refer back to) is simply to prevent worker exploitation at the hands of capitalists. Sure, you may say that S'pore is better, since its labour laws are lax with regards to wages, therefore we can pay our workers near-subsistence wages. But do you think that's fair? If you're the boss, sure that's fair. Not if you are the worker. We have an underclass in S'pore if you haven't realized. When we talk about the U.S. and how there are always racial tensions, do we actually ask why this happens? Blacks are all lazy? They should get a job? Get off welfare? It isn't as simple as you think it is. The only reason why such a thing hasn't happened in S'pore is because of a strong-arm government with pretensions to democracy. But ask our Malay Singaporeans if they sometimes feel like a second-class citizen...you'll know what I mean.
Please enlighten me on why you would be excluded from taking a grant or loan on the basis of your race. I find that rather strange in liberal democracies.
Dude...its not just simply looking....its about keeping an open mind. Yours is evidently closed. You'll be surprised at how much you have been taken for granted in S'pore. -
It never fail to amaze me how a simple topic like this can led to great controversies - it always happens, like magick!
Actually, no one is right or wrong. All parties have their own tales to tell.
Recall the story of The Prince and the Pauper? Both the prince and the pauper wants to switch places with one another because they think the grass is greener on the other side. At the end of the day, only to realise that it's all the same - both worlds have their own good and bad! -
Did the Government actually say that they are worried about shortage of MALE birth ?
Or was the concern with the continuous lowering of annual birth rate that can affect manpower requirements - especially for the SAF ? -
As usual, the gor'men has a split-second, knee jerk, ham-fisted reaction to almost any problem that comes their way, coming up with solutions that truly showcase the concept of the singaporean populace as just a collection of parts in a machine that deserve little consideration to their importance as individuals. Of course, only their own sectors are spared such treatment...
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Tango1, it is clear we have very different ideas of what socialism and capitalism mean. I think you are talking about economic systems, while I am talking about social and philosophical systems (meritocracy might have been a better term for what I support). I don't think we will ever be able to reach any kind of agreement arguing from such different premises. You also seem to have had good experiences there, so I'll just wish you and yours a good life in Canada.
However, I still see a lot of ignorance in this thread. Singapore's education system is a lot less oppressive than, for example, America's or Japan's. If you don't think systemic racism exists in the boardrooms or even governments of western, developed countries, you need to look harder. Underclasses exist in welfare states -- look at Spain, Greece or Italy. Sometimes the majority of the country is in the underclass ("average schmucks" ). Our inflation rate is extremely low by international standards. We have even been undergoing mild deflation in recent years. If you want to compare prices with another country, make sure that you also take into account how much people there earn. I could buy a house for $100 in Zimbabwe, but that's a fortune there. Basically, Singapore is bad, but most other places are worse. Certain things are difficult or unpleasant by nature, and wishing it weren't so won't change that.
However, you have a point that as nations transition from developing to developed status, their social and economic priorities may need to change as well. Different states of a nation's development present different challenges. While before we had to run fast, now we must run far. I do not think it would be unreasonable for another cultural change to overtake Singapore at this point in its development. Competition for resources in Singapore is less fierce now, so there need not be this much pushing and shoving. A "softer", more inclusive culture might serve us better now, where success is defined more broadly and failure is not immediately or so fiercely punished.
I am convinced that ultimately, improving the birth rate involves cultural rather than economic change. Most Singaporeans are more than capable financially of having more children, certainly more so than their own parents. They just don't want to, for a wide variety of reasons, which ultimately boil down to culture. Several other problems that we have, such as our perceived lack of creativity and entrepreneurship and our political apathy, are also ultimately cultural, if you again compare our behaviour to others. The good news is that if it changed once, it can be changed again. The bad news is that nobody knows how. We will just have to see what happens. -
Originally posted by dkhoo:
Have you lost your mind? Prehaps it would behoove us to remind you the amount of cash it takes to support a single child now? That could easily sastify any family back then with eight kids. Has the cost of living now been lost out on you?
I am convinced that ultimately, improving the birth rate involves cultural rather than economic change. [b]Most Singaporeans are more than capable financially of having more children, certainly more so than their own parents. They just don't want to, for a wide variety of reasons, which ultimately boil down to culture. Several other problems that we have, such as our perceived lack of creativity and entrepreneurship and our political apathy, are also ultimately cultural, if you again compare our behaviour to others. The good news is that if it changed once, it can be changed again. The bad news is that nobody knows how. We will just have to see what happens.[/b]
Maybe the gar'men should just scrap HDB and rebuild kumpongs, that'll surely bring down the cost of living.
As for the "culture" of lacking creativity, is it any surprise when Singaporeans have to contend with the gar'men paradox of "think for yourselves but don't think for yourselves" where creativity is encouraged but any form of individualism that appears to threaten the status quo rapidly and heavily crushed with overbearing firepower and an comprehensive, omnidirectional assualt on some hapless individuals?
This supposed interest in encouraging creativity is largely a farce, an attempt to milk more out of the Singaporean cow to serve the status quo. Why complian when Singaporean students don't ask questions or speak up? After all, this was all that they had been trained to do since young, is it any surprise at all? Now they want us to think out of the box when they were the ones that put us in it in the first place.
Yes be creative, but only in our politically approved ways?