2nd MAF ASTROS II MLRS regiment are operational!!!!!
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cargo rounds ... or some people just call them cluster bomb delivery system.
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im not refering to the rounds, but the system. or is there such a term for it at all?Originally posted by Icemoon:to wuming78, HE? As opposed to HEAT.
Ok, maybe those are not the exact arty terms
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wuming, those rounds can be fired out of any howitzer in S'pore service, so there is no overall name for the system. In US service, the rounds are called ICM (improved conventional munitions), most often DPICM (dual purpose = anti-vehicle + anti-personnel) is used. The general term for the rounds are cargo rounds, though that also covers rounds which contain mines. In US service, rounds which contain mines are called FASCAM (field artillery scatterable mines).
ASTROS is a very impressive system and I congratulate Malaysia on getting them operational. They help to maintain the balance of power in the region and deter aggression from all sides, so I guess they are good in the end. If Singapore gets too strong compared to her neighbors, it would not be good either.
Of course, being in range of them means that we need to be concerned. Past experience has shown that MLRS systems are very difficult to hunt down with air or counterbattery fire, as long as the crew is skilled. I have no doubt that the SAF has some way of dealing with MLRS if they are used against us. Probably some strike aircraft will always be kept in the air with bombs but no specific target, for opportunistic strikes on high-value assets. Special forces might also be used. Maybe there is some weapon that the SAF is keeping secret, like the rumored cruise missiles or IRBM.
Regardless, it is no reason to get hostile toward HARIMAU. He is doing us a favor by telling us these things and should not be attacked for it. This is a forum, not a cock-size contest.
Anyway, happy new year, everyone. -
SAF has been playing this game of "Mine is longer, harder, thicker...." for quite some time now.Originally posted by dkhoo:ASTROS is a very impressive system and I congratulate Malaysia on getting them operational. They help to maintain the balance of power in the region and deter aggression from all sides, so I guess they are good in the end. If Singapore gets too strong compared to her neighbors, it would not be good either.
Of course, being in range of them means that we need to be concerned. Past experience has shown that MLRS systems are very difficult to hunt down with air or counterbattery fire, as long as the crew is skilled. I have no doubt that the SAF has some way of dealing with MLRS if they are used against us. Probably some strike aircraft will always be kept in the air with bombs but no specific target, for opportunistic strikes on high-value assets. Special forces might also be used. Maybe there is some weapon that the SAF is keeping secret, like the rumored cruise missiles or IRBM.
Regardless, it is no reason to get hostile toward HARIMAU. He is doing us a favor by telling us these things and should not be attacked for it. This is a forum, not a cock-size contest.
Anyway, happy new year, everyone.
Though there are merits to this approach......it's not going to work in the long run or when overplayed as I think is the case.
No point having the tools and not using it! Let's not forget that superior specs don't count too much until you get 'REFERENCEs' with practise
Peacekeeping ops is the way to go. Some day other soldiers will say they SAW
SAF fight well and give respect! -
nobody is wrong here. but rather i think it is better to translate to something that everybody can understand. no point talking abt something that most of us don't read or write malay. how are we suppose to contribute even if we want to, in this way.
hope this clears the air a bit.
btw, this is on the internet and its world-wide/international. some degree of translation is only appropriate.
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the news report is what harimau said in the 1st post. though the report looks quite long, its more about the regt's 10th anniversary celebrations.
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6th Royal Artillery Regiment gets rocket launchers
by Nawawi Majit
The 6th Royal Arty Regt, based at Lok Kawi Camp, Kota Kinabalu, just celebrated
its 10th annivesray and had been equipped with MLRS with 89km range.
Multiple rocket launcher is one of the most modern weapon in the country and is used
by the army.
This unit provides arty fire support to friendly forces in all phases of war, be it
conventional or insurgency.
"In order to shoulder this responsibility, every personnel had been trained to
operate this system and is now operationally ready" said its CO, Col Satwant Singh.
He said this in his speech at the Regt's 10th anniversary celebrations recently.
At the parade celebrations, he inspected the guard or honour, handed out certificates of
excellence and ranks to his men.
The parade was lead by Asst CO Major Salehudin Ahmad.
Corp Ngumbang Anak Garu, lead the recepient list and was confered the rank of Sargeant.
followed by L/Corp Jerim Mijin and Azmi Abdul Gafar.
Salwant said, the weapons provided by the government is in line with the regt's role
which is the 2nd largest in the country with the establishment of 17 artilery units
in the camp.
...blah, blah...more on the speech about loyalty and commitment to the regt etc. -
Just an article that I found:
During the Second World War, the Russians deployed hundreds of rocket launchers in lines, firing off thousands of unguided rockets which came crashing down on German positions. The simultaneous launching of the rockets must been an awesome sight but the accuracy and effectiveness of such ‘area’ weapons were questionable. Nevertheless, in the past few decades, military technology has greatly improved the accuracy of such rockets and has developed deadlier warheads filled with special munitions, mines or bomblets. During the 1991 Gulf War, the American-developed Multiple Launch Rocket System made its operational debut and appeared to have made a satisfactory appearance. However, the MLRS’ hefty price tag and technological complexity put it out of the reach of many armed forces in the world. The solution: the Brazilian AVIBRAS’ ASTROS (Artillery SaTuration ROcket System).
Shoot and scoot
AVIBRAS has much experience in developing multiple rocket launchers since the 1960s. In the early 1980s, a Middle Eastern country, believed to be Iraq, requested AVIBRAS to design a mobile MRL system. This resulted in the ASTROS II modular system which is mounted on a Tectran 6 x 6 truck chassis. When in a firing position, the truck deploys 4 outrigger legs to ensure stability. On the road, the truck is able to travel at a speed up to 90 km/h while in off-road conditions, it drops to 40 km/h. Utilising its high speed, the ASTROS can quickly enter into position, fire its rockets and flee before enemy counter-battery action can destroy it. The truck itself has no protection against enemy fire, is not protected against nuclear/biological/chemical warfare but is equipped with 6 smoke grenade launchers. On the roof of the cab, there is a M2H heavy machine gun for self-protection. The whole system is air-portable where it can be ferried by a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft.
Putting it all together
A typical firing battery would consist of 6 ASTROS launchers, 6 ammunition supply vehicles and 1 fire control vehicle. Each ammunition supply vehicle is able to carry 2 complete reloads. As for the fire control vehicle it is based on the well-respected Contraves Fieldguard radar system. At the battalion level, there would be a command and control vehicle which can coordinate and direct the fire missions for 3 ASTROS batteries. All the vehicles utilise the same chassis which provides for inter-changeability.
Devastating warheads for all purpose destruction
The ASTROS multiple rocket launcher is an ideal offensive weapon systems due to its many different warheads. There are 4 warhead variants for the ASTROS launchers; the 32-round SS-30, 16-round SS-40, 4-round SS-60 and the 4-round SS-80. The difference in the variants is dependent on the weight and size of the rockets they fire. The numbers used in the variants indicates the range of the rockets; an example would be the SS-80 which has an impressive range of 80 km. All the warheads are high explosive-fragmentation ones. Prior to an attack, it can be used to shatter enemy defences which enables the infantry and armour to punch through. It is able to swamp a target area with more high explosive than several batteries of conventional artillery. Alternative munitions have also been developed. There is a high explosive white phosphorous incendiary warhead which can be used against enemy personnel and material. It can also deploy smoke to conceal an impending attack. There is also a mine deploying warhead which can be used against soldiers and armoured vehicles. More ominously, the ASTROS system can be used to develop chemical agents which are far more lethal when delivered at one go rather than being steadily built up by a conventional artillery barrage. The most unique application for the ASTROS rocket would be its runway denial warhead which is able to penetrate into reinforced concrete runways up to a depth of 0.5 metres. Armed with a delayed action fuse designed to hinder repair work to the runway, it is intended to crater runways so as to prevent enemy aircraft from operating.
International success
Iraq took possession of 66 ASTROS II batteries which they used against Iran during the long-drawn Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. Impressed with the weapons in their hands, they obtained the licence to build copies called the Sajil-60. Other Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar too chalked up impressive sales that between 1982 and 1987, sales reached US$1 billion for AVIBRAS. Both the Iraqi and Saudi ASTROS saw action during the 1991 Gulf War.
However, with the end of the war between Iran and Iraq and the decline in the Brazilian governmentÂ’s support, AVIBRAS fell into bankruptcy. Nevertheless, ABIBRAS worked off its debts slowly over the 1990s. In 1999, the Brazilian Army signed a contract to acquire the ASTROS system. As a signal of the revived fortunes for the company, the Malaysian Army also announced in November 2000, it was purchasing 18 ASTROS systems which was valued at over 185 million ringgit. Significantly, with the purchase, Malaysia would only the second ASEAN country operating an MLRS system; the other being Thailand. -
why didnt singapore acquire MLRS systems? or r we going to do so?
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Apart from MAF (ASTROS II 300mm MLRS) and RTA (PRC copy of the Yugo 27mm MLRS) Indonesian Marines also has procured an initial 4 units of GRAD type MLRS........extra nos could be made soon????
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We wanted to buy the US Army's MLRS sometime back. But I think it wasn't approved by the US government as the sale will "introduce a new/more capable weapons platform to the SEA region" or something to that effect.Originally posted by wuming78:why didnt singapore acquire MLRS systems? or r we going to do so?
Same reason as why we didn't have a BVR AAM for such a long time. -
Maybe in the future we will get the guided US MLRS or a similar Israelis system. The Astros 2 is a waste of money.Originally posted by wuming78:why didnt singapore acquire MLRS systems? or r we going to do so?
The reasons are :
1.They are extremely in accurate as compare to a gun howitzers.
They are inaccurate becos they are not guided.
The west(including US & Israel) does not even produced or deployed any rockets systems that have the range above 50km in the 90s, this is becos of the extreme inaccuracy of a unguided rockets system above 50kms which will most probably cause more collateral damage than hitting the target. Only recently with GPS guidance they then started to develop LR rockets. Check the link below for the US MRLS:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/himars/index.html
Even though the CEP of the ASTROS 2 is not given by the Brazilian, a similar unguided system from China will give us a rough idea.The Chinese has boosted that their system has a CEP of 1-1.5%. Therefore assuming the Astros2 is as accurate as the Chinese system(most probably not as the Chinese has more experiences in rocket technology than the Brazilian), the SS80 at the range of 80km will hit the traget with an error of 800m - 1600m!!!
Check the link below for the Chinese MRLS:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ws1b/index.html
2. The unguided system is also much expensive & its rocket is also much more expensive then a gun system and it's projectiles.
3.Becos of it's electronics, it will also be less reliable than a simple projectile and charges of a gun system.The Astros 2 is also less efficient than any other available system.
Astros 2 has complicated electronics ,therefore there is always the possibility of electronic error.Currently US missile technology allows for a 10-20 percent failure rate. That could prove deadly if the vehicles were offering close artillery support.
The Astros 2 has no mechanical loading facilities, the 5.6m SS80 rockets will have to loaded manually by manpower. Therefore after the one salvo, it need to be scoot and take some time for it to reloaded. One more thing, becos of the size of the rocket(5.6m), it might even be shot down by modern AA guns & missiles.
In conclusion,for a range of 40km and below, it will be cheaper as well much more accurate using a gun howitzers than rockets especially with today laser/GPS guided arty gun shell.
For range above 50 km, the US , Israeli & Russian are still developing the GPS guided rockets that have even higher range than Astros 2, I am sure that the SAF is looking closely on these development. IIRC, the Israeli GPS guided rocket system has a CEP of 5m at 100km range.
CHARGE!!!
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ASTROS II not accurate????HELLOOOOO!!!! the MLRS projectiles aint no SLBM or ALCM (still the US Tomahawk went off course nos of times!!!).Their main objective to "neutralise enemy strongpoint or column or whatever" with extreme prejudice.Furthermore the SS80 rounds are carrier rounds with 64 DPCIM bomblets......with that kind of bomblets it's okay not hit the target with superb accuracy.BTW the so call 800m-1600m off course speculation......well just base on speculation .....coz as far as the MAF concern.....they SS80 rounds were more than "accurate" to get the job done hence they bought another 18 launcher + god knows how many rounds
Last year MAF conducted the live fire exercise with 48 SS80 rounds.....aimed somewhere at the Malacca straits......being the busiest straits in the world.....it's a wonder such "inaccurate" rounds the SS80 didnt went off course towards ships plying the tight waterway
So Garry.....next time get ur facts rite okay
Talking about speculation and hearsay......some said MAF also purchase the ASTROS TACTICAL MISSILE with 300km range -
I think he got it a bit wrong. It is NOT 'extremely inaccurate'. Its just that rockets are by nature RELATIVELY more inaccurate than tube rounds. Of course, this is more than compensated for by the rockets carrying big payloads of ICM munitions.
By the way, is any of the SS-XX rocket series guided, especially the long ranged ones? (lazy to check out myself, sorry) Also, is there any published info on the dud rate of the ICM munitions? -
With regards with the dud rounds...have to check it out...... As for as i know only the SS150 are guided....but i dont think MAF bought that version.
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OK , tell me the CEP of the Astros 2 rockets so to prove that they are accurate? Give me your Fact!!!Originally posted by HARIMAU:ASTROS II not accurate????HELLOOOOO!!!! the MLRS projectiles aint no SLBM or ALCM (still the US Tomahawk went off course nos of times!!!).Their main objective to "neutralise enemy strongpoint or column or whatever" with extreme prejudice.Furthermore the SS80 rounds are carrier rounds with 64 DPCIM bomblets......with that kind of bomblets it's okay not hit the target with superb accuracy.BTW the so call 800m-1600m off course speculation......well just base on speculation .....coz as far as the MAF concern.....they SS80 rounds were more than "accurate" to get the job done hence they bought another 18 launcher + god knows how many rounds
Last year MAF conducted the live fire exercise with 48 SS80 rounds.....aimed somewhere at the Malacca straits......being the busiest straits in the world.....it's a wonder such "inaccurate" rounds the SS80 didnt went off course towards ships plying the tight waterway
So Garry.....next time get ur facts rite okay
I could you tell now , you will not find it any where becos the manufacturer dun even dare to reveal it!!!!
If they are accurate , the manufacturer would have reveal the CEP long time ago!!!
US and other Western countries have not produced any long range rockets before 90s becos of the nature of unguided rockets is so inaccurate that it will not be viable as a arty system, it will most probably cause more collateral damage than hitting the target, they are only now developing the LR version with GPS guidance.Only with some form guidance, a LR rocket system become viable.
A similar unguided rocket sytem like the Chinese is a good example as they are like the Astros 2, both unguided rockets system.
As I said , unless you could show us any documentary proof of the accuracy of Astros 2, that is no way one could believe that the unguided Astros 2 is more accurate than the Chinese system, afteall the Chinese has rocket technology that could send someone to space!!!
Last thing, why fire the rockets toward the sea where you need to ensure that the target is clear, why not fire toward a land based arty range where it will less troublesome? This is becos that they might actually hit a MY town!!!!
CHARGE!!! -
Short range yes, it is still viable system.Originally posted by YourFather:I think he got it a bit wrong. It is NOT 'extremely inaccurate'. Its just that rockets are by nature RELATIVELY more inaccurate than tube rounds. Of course, this is more than compensated for by the rockets carrying big payloads of ICM munitions.
By the way, is any of the SS-XX rocket series guided, especially the long ranged ones? (lazy to check out myself, sorry) Also, is there any published info on the dud rate of the ICM munitions?
But longer range like above 50 km, this inaccuracy will be compounded, therefore will only be good against a large concentration of enemy forces.
CHARGE!!! -
The reasons why.....simply our CATC in Gemas just aint ready yet....should be ready by this year i guess.....u really need a huge space for a live exercise.....why take risk when u could make use of the sea???
Last thing, why fire the rockets toward the sea where you need to ensure that the target is clear, why not fire toward a land based arty range where it will less troublesome? This is becos that they might actually hit a MY town!!!!
CHARGE!!!
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AVIBRAS for those who have attended DSA,IDEX etc.....aint like others....they are very discreet.....talk to nobody except VIP delegation.Dont expect company that managed to supply Iraq with weapons during the UN embargo to sing like a bird on the internet -
Talking about speculation and hearsay......some said MAF also purchase the ASTROS TACTICAL MISSILE with 300km range
No other longer range rockets has been developed after SS80.
All longer range R&D has stopped becos they almost filed bankruptcy before they are developed.
The proof is provided below:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/astros.htm
CHARGE!!! -
As I said, if the Astros is so good and accurate, it will sell like hot cakes, all western countries would have bought one instead of the more expensive US's MLRS, only a few countries in middle east bought them & the company almost went bankrupt becos of the "good" sales.Originally posted by HARIMAU:The reasons why.....simply our CATC in Gemas just aint ready yet....should be ready by this year i guess.....u really need a huge space for a live exercise.....why take risk when u could make use of the sea???
AVIBRAS for those who have attended DSA,IDEX etc.....aint like others....they are very discreet.....talk to nobody except VIP delegation.Dont expect company that managed to supply Iraq with weapons during the UN embargo to sing like a bird on the internet
Why be discreet to sell a products, the sales persons will try all kind of sales tactics like boosting the CEP, reliability etc of the system to the buyers as well as to military analyst so get the sales as well as get good review from military analyst.
Since they dun even dare to reveal the CEP to the miliatry analyst, it must be good sales tactics!!!
Another thing, the Astros 2 was sold to the Iraqi during the Iraq-Iran war, during that time even the US is helping the Iraq!!
CHARGE!!! -
I believe the truth of the matter is, that the MAF ASTROS II will be more of a terror weapon like V2 Buzz Bombs then actual tatical weapons designed to deal damage. Great for shooting a city full of civillian targets, but not good for suppressing a moving enemy force far away.
Moving the MLRS close where it can get better at shooting would expose it to SAF tube arty, in which the ASTROS will be woefully undergunned. Maybe that's why SAF just revealed the Primus, self propelled arty pieces to balance the ASTROS. While the ASTROS can get off a massive barrage in one salvo, it is unable to sustain a steady barrage with corrections. If they fail to suppress their target with one shot, they better be running rather then struggling to reload.
The Primus on the other hand, can snap off a few shots, move and reload at the same time. I wonder which is of more tatical value in the long run... -
[quote]Originally posted by HARIMAU:
The reasons why.....simply our CATC in Gemas just aint ready yet....should be ready by this year i guess.....u really need a huge space for a live exercise.....why take risk when u could make use of the sea???
Guess this proves that M'sia Army knows that its inaccurate and doesn't wanna take a risk of hitting a town. The sea thing.. hmm... port of authorities of malaysia definitely have warned all sea faring vessels to avoid the area by at least 30nautical miles from the target zone during the livefire. -
this gets interesting... why are we assuming that the Astros got names of Sg new towns painted on them?
and why should Sg be forced to react and publicly announce a counter-measure like Sg and M'sia are in a pissing contest?
not going to degenerate into proclaiming Sg might or laughing about MAF inferiority. just wish that pple would stop assuming that every goddamn system bought by malaysia is aimed at Sg and vice versa.
anyway, has anyone ventured to wonder how many rockets the system will utilise in one salvo and how many salvos the re-supply vehicle can carry? assuming that both sides do come to blows and assuming that this system is to play a descisive role (both of which are unlikely of course), the biggest challenge will not be who has the bigger bang, but who can sustain and re-supply its troops efficiently out in the field. not the most sexy topic to explore but a significant one nonetheless...
less offensive than this pissing contest anyway. and i think we did something like this on the Astros some months ago already... this is repetitious... -
For the Astros 2 , you could find all the available spec & history from this site:Originally posted by CX:anyway, has anyone ventured to wonder how many rockets the system will utilise in one salvo and how many salvos the re-supply vehicle can carry? assuming that both sides do come to blows and assuming that this system is to play a descisive role (both of which are unlikely of course), the biggest challenge will not be who has the bigger bang, but who can sustain and re-supply its troops efficiently out in the field. not the most sexy topic to explore but a significant one nonetheless...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/astros.htm
For ans to your qns, 4 rockets/lanucher for SS60-80 rockets;
16 rockets/lanucher for SS40 & 32 rockets/lanucher for SS30.
A ammunition supply vehicle carries two complete loads for each launcher.
And lastly reloading is completely manual, no auto-loading system for support.
CHARGE!!! -
I think rocket artillery system like Astros doesn't have to be accurate(area denial weapon)....and if directed at Singapore should have more impact than SAF doing the same in the other direction since ours is a small island.Originally posted by CX:this gets interesting... why are we assuming that the Astros got names of Sg new towns painted on them?
and why should Sg be forced to react and publicly announce a counter-measure like Sg and M'sia are in a pissing contest?
not going to degenerate into proclaiming Sg might or laughing about MAF inferiority. just wish that pple would stop assuming that every goddamn system bought by malaysia is aimed at Sg and vice versa.
Seen as a weapon system integrated into MAF.....maybe some loop holes.....sounds like a job for "buttock eating" SAF Commandoes?
So, MAF is longer, thicker........SAF's only shows as a long stub over tight swimming trunks. "It seems to be BIG.....BUT what is it?!"
And then there's the issue of stamina.......sigh
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Originally posted by gary1910:
You should further explore the site you provide....
No other longer range rockets has been developed after SS80.
All longer range R&D has stopped becos they almost filed bankruptcy before they are developed.
The proof is provided below:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/astros.htm
[b]CHARGE!!!
[/b]
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/avmt-300.htm
This is the guided version with a longer range....300km.
And Avibras is not bankrupt.
What is interesting to note is that "Malaysia" was mentioned when this product was revealed.