2nd MAF ASTROS II MLRS regiment are operational!!!!!
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Uhh, no. Each projectile will actually be radar guided to their target by a radar tracker, if i remember correctly. Also, what do you think the dispense altitude for the rockets are? Should any intercept against a rocket be attempted, that would be a consideration. (but its just a theoretical thought. I guess you'll agree with me
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I realise I have a made a mistake, you are actually talking abt anti-rocket projectile!! SorryOriginally posted by YourFather:Uhh, no. Each projectile will actually be radar guided to their target by a radar tracker, if i remember correctly. Also, what do you think the dispense altitude for the rockets are? Should any intercept against a rocket be attempted, that would be a consideration. (but its just a theoretical thought. I guess you'll agree with me )
One thing I wanted to ask, anyone here know the term consistency of fire Bo/X = 1/100 - 1/150 , it seem that the lower , the better it is. It this same thing as the Dud probability?
CHARGE!!!
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Do we have anything close to a rocket/missile launchers in our artillery?
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facts or fats?? 
You keep bringing this CEP and doubting the Astros accuracy...to put things in perspective, let me paint a simple scenario...(i have provided this info in a previous thread on Astros). I hope i don't scare you with it.
1 Astros launcher - 4 SS80 rockets.
Each rockets can provide area saturation with anti-personnel, anti-amour submunition to 1 sqkm.
where u got the info that each rocket can provide area saturation for an area of 1 sqkm??? according to this website... http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/submunitions.pdf 
it takes about 7,728 submunition to cover an area of approx. 240,000 square METERs (not kilometers ok?) using the US MRLS system as example... 
but each Astros2 rocket only carry 64 submunition leh..... according to the same website..... 7728 divide by 64 gives 120 SS-60/80 rockets leh!! how many rockets can one launcher carry again?? and how many rockets do you need to fire to cover 1 kmsq?? i estimated .... 120*5 ... around 600 astros2 rocket!! how long will it take for MAF to launch 600 rocket? and if MAF wanna cover singapore with rocket... how many rocket would that take.... lets see... 600*624 gives 374,400 rockets!!! wow... MAF must be damn freaking rich!!
1 regt with 18 lauchers - 72 rockets
2 regt with 36 launchers - 144 rockets in one salvo. ahhh.... 144 rocket per salvo... 374,400 rocket would take.... 2,600 salvos!!! wow.... i wonder the launcher can tahan or not... sekali after 2 salvo... break down liow...
From the first launch, 144sqkm will be saturated with blasts from submunitions.
correct figure should be 240,000sqmeter divide by 7,728 multiply by 144*64 (submunition carried in each A-2)... gives a total area of....286,211 sqmeter... convert to sq kilometer gives... 0.286 sqkm...
Therefore, to blanket an area of 640sqkm, it will require 5 salvoes. therefore to blanket an area of 640km would require 640/0.286 gives.... 2238 salvos...
Time from launch to a target 89km away - 2 min
Reload time - 6 min
Time taken for 5 salvoes - 34min. assuming it takes 34 min to launch 5 salvos... the time needed to launch 2238 salvos would be 2238/5*34 gives....83,219 minutes equals to 1,387 hours or ....58days (assuming MAF soldier all no need rest, eat, shit, sleep or even pee for 58 days, redbull all the way.)
Assuming if you do survive the first barrage, and recover from the shock....you have 32min to mount a response, else within the next 32min, an area of 640sqkm will be reduce to wasteland.
yah... lor... my house only 100 meter square niah... probably 1 SS-80 rocket direct hit... enough liow.
This is their version of "Shock and Awe"....coming from the MLRS.
The tube arty will followup with sustain arty fire.
That is why MLRS and tube arty are complementary.
Now tell me, would CEP be important here. Don't muddle yourself with the leaves when what you need is a helicopter view. tube artillery... soild piece of stuff... plus the cargo rounds.. they make very big mess of enemies position... due to high rate of fire and accuracy... though they may not have the range of the A-2... i am sure that the enemy frontline troops could not be more then 30 km away from our forces right?? -
by the way... did some take a closer look at the leaves... of 144km blown away by 1 salvos of A-2???
i read somewhere that a 5 megaton nuke warhead has a blast radius of 5km... which is to say... an area of 78.5kmsquare would be gone by a single nuke warhead...
yet... unbelieavably... some malaysians actually can claim that an MAF A-2 salvos has a destruction area of 144kmsquare.. that is TWICE the blast radius of a 5 megaton warhead NUKE!!!!
frankly... i doubt that 144 A-2 rocket can even carry 1 million tons TNT explosive and still able to fly 90km.... not to mention the possibility of carrying enough TNT to do the damage equivalent to 10 million tons of TNT (equal to 2x 5 megaton NUKE) -
A little off topic......
I guess it's probably mentioned somewhere in all the pages before.....but what's the effect of these submunitions on HDB concrete and bomb shelters?
Seems to me only those on the higher floors will be affected plus the precious reserve water in the water tanks there! -
Good analysis tripwire!
Actually I was also looking for the data on the dispersion of submunitions of rocket system, thank for providing the link.
Actually my simplistic view Circular Error Probable (CEP) was wrong and I apologise to everyone here about it.
It is actually worst, remember the US General talk abt the probabiity of hitting a stationary tow gun at range of 21km with a pod of six rockets with a mean deviation of 50m with only 33% of success!
A US MRLS rockets has abt 644 submunitions per rocket, which mean a total 3,864 submunitions yet only 33% chance!!!
That is becos my understanding of the term CEP is wrong.I thought that all rounds will hit within the CEP!!!
Below if the quote from some arty expert from another forum:Yes it is a Gaussian distribution, but instead using 'Standard Deviations' (ie almost everything will be within 3 times SD distance) military ballistics used PEs, where almost everything falls within 4 times the PE distance, with 50% falling within 1 PE.
Let me give example to explain, the Astros 2 let say has a CEP of 1% mean deviation at range 89km, that mean the mean error is 890m, an area of pi x 890sq =approx 2.5 sq km with probability of 50%!!!!
Data quality for artillery is mostly very good, although there are some development firing ranges in some countries (we won't name them) where the quality control leaves something to be desired. However, real-world conditions are not necessarily as well-managed as they are on development ranges.
Based on the distribution, that is 32% chance of with deviation 2 times of the CEP( 1 CEP is actually 1 PE, probable error) that is from 890m to 1780m deviation.And abt 14% chance with deviation from 1780m to 2670m(3 times of PE) and lastly 4% chance with deviation from 2670m to 3560m!!!!
Below is the distribution chart:
To have a better understanding about arty ballistics, below is link abt the science of it, a bit "chim" but very good:
http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/6-40/Ch3.htm#p7
I hope you will have a better understanding of arty ballistics.
With this data, if the Astros 2 is to target Woodland at range of 89km, I think there is 25% chance of hitting JB itself and the surrounding water!!
CHARGE!!! -
that bad huh?? i mean... i know that A-2 aint accurate... but never realise it could go so far off target....
if so... they gonna need alot LOT LOT LOT more rockets then i calculated if they wanna cover singapore with their cluster munition. since many rockets would probably be hitting the same place or end up in the sea or perhaps even inside malaysia and right on top of malaysian troops!!
this is one weapon i dont want on my side!! its as good as carry an expired grenade that could blow a hole in my tummy anytime!! -
Originally posted by Fairyland:A little off topic......
I guess it's probably mentioned somewhere in all the pages before.....but what's the effect of these submunitions on HDB concrete and bomb shelters?
Seems to me only those on the higher floors will be affected plus the precious reserve water in the water tanks there! the bomb shelters are more then a match for those puny cluster munition...
remember... cluster munition are meant for soft targets... against bomb shelters with walls the thickness calculated in foots of reinforced concrete... you gonna need the US bunker buster to do the job.
as for those HDB flats... cluster munitions no good... you will need 155mm AP or HEDP arty shells to knock them down.. and you will need at least afew rounds to knock a HDB flat down depending on the buildings structural strength and design.
in my personal opinion, present day flat design takes the HDB flats strength to a new level.... with HS and most of the key pillars pulled towards the central region of a flat... while the rest of HDB structural exteriors are builds around it like add on applique armor to take and absorb the direct impact... the rooms and corridors could act as vents to permit the explosive gas to rush through...
remember in GW1 and GW2... the americans uses LGB not cluster bombs against iraqi buldings they wanna blow up.... they have good reason to do so...
and against iraqi fortification and bunkers... the americans have to come up with bunker busters and other deep throat bombs even though they have lots of cluster bomb, cruise missile as well as LGBs. all got reason one... -
Exactly my point... that observe won't be back for some time already, choosing the listen to his credible Maj. Gen, the same credible person who if heard how he was being quoted by observe, would probably slap observe's face ten times and ask him to apply some logic and common sense when reading his statements.
Why would the malaysians even want to hit Singapore indiscriminately? To kill civillians for no good reason? To earn them international commendation for their prowess at using MLRS? It's a stupid, unworkable plan that no sane Malaysian would consider, this is something that only rabid, illogical MAF net dwellers would consider. And of course, they have total faith in their MLRS to do more damage then nuclear weapons as well.
How more delusional can they get? -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Exactly my point... that observe won't be back for some time already, choosing the listen to his credible Maj. Gen, the same credible person who if heard how he was being quoted by observe, would probably slap observe's face ten times and ask him to apply some logic and common sense when reading his statements.
Why would the malaysians even want to hit Singapore indiscriminately? To kill civillians for no good reason? To earn them international commendation for their prowess at using MLRS? It's a stupid, unworkable plan that no sane Malaysian would consider, this is something that only rabid, illogical MAF net dwellers would consider. And of course, they have total faith in their MLRS to do more damage then nuclear weapons as well.
Kaboof... oh you hit a reinforced concrete HDB block with 5-6 scattered submunitions... oooh serious damage. The damage certainly looks like wasteland...
How more delusional can they get? -
On the subject of firepower and precision, it seems that SAF has gone from the "more firepower" to "more precision" mentality. I wonder has that translate to getting guided munitions and submunitions (both 155 rounds and 120mm mortar rounds) for our guns and mortars?
I was hoping that SAF would obtain smart munitions like BONUS and Swedish STRIX. -
It is stated in one website abt the SAF that SG has acquired a licence to produce the Russian laser guided 155mm projectile Krasnopol.The link is below, check the weapons section:Originally posted by Joe Black:On the subject of firepower and precision, it seems that SAF has gone from the "more firepower" to "more precision" mentality. I wonder has that translate to getting guided munitions and submunitions (both 155 rounds and 120mm mortar rounds) for our guns and mortars?
I was hoping that SAF would obtain smart munitions like BONUS and Swedish STRIX.
http://www.geocities.com/ptone50/
CHARGE!!! -
Yap, seen it, but I don't believe it.Originally posted by gary1910:It is stated in one website abt the SAF that SG has acquired a licence to produce the Russian laser guided 155mm projectile Krasnopol.The link is below, check the weapons section:
http://www.geocities.com/ptone50/ -
Well, I also consider it as rumour as well since there is no other collaborating proof.Originally posted by Joe Black:Yap, seen it, but I don't believe it.
But it is really not unbelieveable since we did get the licence for Igla production from the Russian, afterall as long as you got money, one could get some high tech weapons with technology transfer from Russia.
CHARGE!!! -
Below is quote from CyberPioneer sum it all for today modern arty, collateral damage is big no-no in today warfare.
"However, with increasing urbanisation, we cannot use artillery as in the past without resulting in collateral damage. As such, it is important to improve the precision of artillery fire," explained LTC Leong.
Therefore I am not surprise at all that the SAF has already acquired laser guided or even GPS guided arty shells, as the matter of fact, based on the article below where they keep on talking abt "precision", some form of guidance must be available for our arty units.
"Precision firing is one of the cornerstones in Army Transformation."COL Lim said: "The Artillery is perhaps one of the most technical branches in the Army, and we have many opportunities to take advantage of technology."
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/cyberpioneer/setfeatures.html
"We have been able to exploit technology to enable us to have better comprehensive awareness.
It also permits us to have an integrated sensor-shooter link, at various levels of commands, cemented by good doctrine and training," he explained.
"Technology has permitted us to venture way beyond the traditional artillery, one which provided fire support to manoeuvre forces."
CHARGE!!! -
Rumors have it that the MAF special forces are training to ride on Astros rockets.......first they learn how to hang on.........then they learn to steer..........then they learn to EAT and steer(intensive efforts to integrate microwave oven on boardOriginally posted by tripwire:that bad huh?? i mean... i know that A-2 aint accurate... but never realise it could go so far off target....
if so... they gonna need alot LOT LOT LOT more rockets then i calculated if they wanna cover singapore with their cluster munition. since many rockets would probably be hitting the same place or end up in the sea or perhaps even inside malaysia and right on top of malaysian troops!!
this is one weapon i dont want on my side!! its as good as carry an expired grenade that could blow a hole in my tummy anytime!! don't ask what they eat up there it's TOP SECRET! ), approx. 500m above ground they will let go and deploy their parachute.
This last phase they haven't reach yet. But they are learning to use the microwave on the ground now as we forum?
The plan is to reach IOC in June. Aggressive recruiting now going on amongst the new recruits coming in for National Service.
Heated debate going on in higher echelons whether females can steer a rocket better than man.......hmm I have my own biased opinions. -
Yes this brings pictures of the Slovenian, Bosnian etc escapade. You see how those shells keep pounding on the apartment blocks but they still standing.......Originally posted by tripwire: the bomb shelters are more then a match for those puny cluster munition...
remember... cluster munition are meant for soft targets... against bomb shelters with walls the thickness calculated in foots of reinforced concrete... you gonna need the US bunker buster to do the job.
as for those HDB flats... cluster munitions no good... you will need 155mm AP or HEDP arty shells to knock them down.. and you will need at least afew rounds to knock a HDB flat down depending on the buildings structural strength and design.
in my personal opinion, present day flat design takes the HDB flats strength to a new level.... with HS and most of the key pillars pulled towards the central region of a flat... while the rest of HDB structural exteriors are builds around it like add on applique armor to take and absorb the direct impact... the rooms and corridors could act as vents to permit the explosive gas to rush through...
remember in GW1 and GW2... the americans uses LGB not cluster bombs against iraqi buldings they wanna blow up.... they have good reason to do so...
and against iraqi fortification and bunkers... the americans have to come up with bunker busters and other deep throat bombs even though they have lots of cluster bomb, cruise missile as well as LGBs. all got reason one...
What about the water tanks though? -
the water tanks?....
eh... i think there is a reason why we need to que up for water on the ground floor from CDF or PUB water station during food and water emergency exercise...
obviously... while the relative small size of the water tank makes them hard to hit... and the presence of some concrete "wall" does help to protect it slightly... from sharpners....
but make no mistake... those water tanks dont have a titanium or composite armor like those MBTs and thunderbolt attack aircraft. chances is... if hit.. they will leak if not burst into a fountain...
of course... there is a bright side to this sad affair... all our water pipe distribution network are underground... safe from most conventional weapons and should ensure sufficient water supply as long as we can hold onto the reservoir.
alternatively... you can buy hyflux latest home gadget... produce water from the air... then no need to worry about water...
and if worst come to worst... stick out your pail and let uncle rain fill it up for you....
according to one report... singapore's total rainfall is more then 4 times the total water consumption of singapore's entire population.... our govt should seriously think of this resouces abit more harder..... -
Tripwire, u working in Hyflux huh??
haha. -
Hey you are right on the Hyflux Water Making Air Con, it's one useful machine.Originally posted by tripwire:the water tanks?....
eh... i think there is a reason why we need to que up for water on the ground floor from CDF or PUB water station during food and water emergency exercise...
obviously... while the relative small size of the water tank makes them hard to hit... and the presence of some concrete "wall" does help to protect it slightly... from sharpners....
but make no mistake... those water tanks dont have a titanium or composite armor like those MBTs and thunderbolt attack aircraft. chances is... if hit.. they will leak if not burst into a fountain...
of course... there is a bright side to this sad affair... all our water pipe distribution network are underground... safe from most conventional weapons and should ensure sufficient water supply as long as we can hold onto the reservoir.
alternatively... you can buy hyflux latest home gadget... produce water from the air... then no need to worry about water...
and if worst come to worst... stick out your pail and let uncle rain fill it up for you....
according to one report... singapore's total rainfall is more then 4 times the total water consumption of singapore's entire population.... our govt should seriously think of this resouces abit more harder.....
If we go to Defcon 2 or 1 our precious reserves on top of each HDB block has to be pumped out somewhere........just in case.
You know if you add up the total capacity of all those water tanks they become another reservoir. There is more rainfall than we can catch.......they are using drains to channel storm water into mini reservoirs near our neighbourhoods.
Don't know why they bothered going thru the torturous negotiations those years?!
Wonder if authorities have planned for that?
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Thats right we must eventually be self-sufficient with our water supply.We must now allow other country to use water to threaten us in the future again.I was thinking,maybe we can have this new Hyflux air con technology to replace existing air con systems nation wide. Then come out with a system to collect all this water.The waters supply in Singapore will certainly increase!
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Hence the reason for the development for NewWater! Its even better, cos it draws water from the sea—u dun have to depend on the rainfall, and its free! Neither can our dear neighbour claim control over it.. And a host of other benefits. I think its those guys are still perfecting the technology—although its nothing new, and the states alreadi had counties based on that model, for years.
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haha. skarli our dear neighbour say we take too much water from e sea den the ikan bilis on their side all die how??Originally posted by -=hellfire=-:Hence the reason for the development for NewWater! Its even better, cos it draws water from the sea—u dun have to depend on the rainfall, and its free! Neither can our dear neighbour claim control over it.. And a host of other benefits. I think its those guys are still perfecting the technology—although its nothing new, and the states alreadi had counties based on that model, for years. -
Yes, I believe it is reverse osmosis, used by NASA for space trips and Coke too.Originally posted by -=hellfire=-:Hence the reason for the development for NewWater! Its even better, cos it draws water from the sea—u dun have to depend on the rainfall, and its free! Neither can our dear neighbour claim control over it.. And a host of other benefits. I think its those guys are still perfecting the technology—although its nothing new, and the states alreadi had counties based on that model, for years.