Rare picture of SAR-21 with foregrip.
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Check this out man... -
interesting... wats the purpose of the foregrip?
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To stablise the rifle's recoil for better accuracy?
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Most soldiers prefer a tactical foregrip and this can be seen with effort to equipped US COLT series with RIS system (almost all US M4 are equipped with RIS).AUG do have this foregrip.....which the SAR failed to copy
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Fail to copy or we dun see the need to copy? I dun see a standard foregrip in the XM-8..Originally posted by HARIMAU:Most soldiers prefer a tactical foregrip and this can be seen with effort to equipped US COLT series with RIS system (almost all US M4 are equipped with RIS).AUG do have this foregrip.....which the SAR failed to copy -
XM8 too big for a foregrip.....not to mentioned still at its infancy.....M4 when first introduced do not spot RIS either.RIS are for a lightweight weapons like M4,AUG etc......have u ever seen one on M16A2???
BTW why do you think SAF follow suit????
For fun.....i dont think so -
AUG a light weight weapon? With a weight of 3.8kg , i dun think it is light. The Famas is 0.2kg lighter than the AUG , i dun see it with a foregrip. The M-16A2 is 3.77kg which is lighter than the AUG , i dun see it with a foregrip too.Originally posted by HARIMAU:XM8 too big for a foregrip.....not to mentioned still at its infancy.....M4 when first introduced do not spot RIS either.RIS are for a lightweight weapons like M4,AUG etc......have u ever seen one on M16A2???
BTW why do you think SAF follow suit???? For fun.....i dont think so
The reason why some guns require a foregrip is to stabilise the recoil of some guns to improve accuracy. A foregrip will not be a standard issue for some guns which do not need a foregrip for better accuracy. Foregrip will not improve the accuracy of some guns greatly and thus wont be introduce.
The AUG's foregrip can be push forward so that the firer can shoot the weapon without the foregrip. In some shooting stances , it is better without the foregrip ( such as firing in narrow trenches )....
The SAR-21 is well reputed for her accuracy even without the foregrip , thus i will see that we dun need a standard foregrip on the SAR-21. -
agree. perhaps there were operational considerations too. and i was wondering which part of the barrel is the foregrip fixed to.Originally posted by foxtrout8:The SAR-21 was well praised for her accuracy even without the foregrip , thus i will see that we dun need a standard foregrip on the SAR-21. -
I believe it was fixed into a modified RIS in the gun's barrel.Originally posted by wuming78:agree. perhaps there were operational considerations too. and i was wondering which part of the barrel is the foregrip fixed to.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/sar21_3.jpg -
nice.
btw wich variant of the sar 21 is tis? -
The RIS fitted to the rifle (in the first image) looks like AUG type....movable....but the second image looks a bit "fixed" to me??
A new stock more likely for the RIS SAR featured above (first image). -
I think they call it SAR-21 P-rail.Originally posted by wuming78:
nice.
btw wich variant of the sar 21 is tis? -
characteristics? and wats it used for?Originally posted by foxtrout8:I think they call it SAR-21 P-rail.
i only heard and seen pictures of the m203 and SAW variants. -
I believe it is designed to accomodate different types of scopes and aiming devices and thus will be most likely favoured by SOF troops.Originally posted by wuming78:characteristics? and wats it used for?
i only heard and seen pictures of the m203 and SAW variants. -
SAR failed to copy AUG??
why should SAR copy AUG in the first place?? AUG very good meh? can shoot nuclear missile out of its barrels har?
why not turn around and say that AUG dont posses many of the finer edge that SAR has.
SAR is a locally manufactured rifle for the use of SAF based on SAF requirement...
while i cant say if that foregrip would be for the better or not... one is certain... our SAR is considered one of the best even without foregrip...
if there is any copy here... that would be malaysia... since AUG aint from malaysia... they pay for the license right to reproduce(copy lah) 80 percent of AUG in malaysia... that factory already close liow ... because no buissness....
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My dear tripwire.....just because ur down there at Sun tech city with high speed broadband - does not mean that you know everything.Ask fellow SAF member who came up here for DSA 2002 .....and they will tell you after delivering 124,000 of AUG to the MAF, a repeat order of another 24,000 rifles were signed.But just in case the SAF officer aint talking to you.....you could always check news site (defence related) abt SME ....AUG.....MAF....repeat order for another 24,000.
SAR 21 also a copy of the TAVOR TAR 21......dont bull lah.....maybe some of u can bull some of the boys here....sorry not me Face it....Sg only bought the TAR 21 .....redesigned it...plus adding the troublesome adapter for M16 mags..bla....bla....waalllaaaa.....SAR 21.SAR 21 good weapon indeed.....100 percent Sg design????????DONT THINK SO -
Ahem...
I never had any illusions about the SAR-21 being a ORGINAL weapon, as par say. For no firearm in the world can be considered original. They all draw their design heritage from some earlier design. Even the US army OICWS is not an entirely new weapons system in it's like. There's no denying the SAR-21 draws it's design inspirations from several sucessful firearm designs... who wouldn't? Is Proton Saga even remotely malaysian save the logo?
But what is the line between a copy and an indigenous firearm. A copy simply rips off the original design and creates a crude product that is a parody or little different from the original. The SAR-21 is certainly no AUG wannabe or rip-off. It has been carefully designed drawing inspiration and lessons from previous firearms, not just the AUG, to create a firearm that is indigeous to Singaporean requirements, and not only that, it is one of the finest firearms in the world as well.
So is the SAR-21 a AUG rip off, any weapons expert can tell you that you have to be half out of your mind/ or malaysian trying desperately to put it down, to buy that little piece of spin telling, not surprising, considering that a certainly northern country trives on telling themselves wild stories to boost their own ego.
if you put both rifles side by side, you'll realize that despite external apperances, the SAR-21 is a more advanced rifle then the AUG.
There are several reasons for this: Firstly, the SAR-21 is a whole generation of firearms ahead of the AUG, and hence uses new technologies and designed based on lessons learned from older weapons. The SAR is more reliable, durable, accucrate and far easier to strip and maintain then the AUG. In terms of patented technology, the SAR-21 is a generation ahead, simply because it's a newer weapon, there's no propangada involved here, it's just that way.
As for the TAR-21, ahem... do you think the similarities are a result of coincidence? It's an open secret that ST cooperates with the IDF on weapons R&D, and it's hardly a surprise that these two firearms have a interwoven development history.
Before you raise issues of copying, it would be good to know that the SAR-21 came out BEFORE the TAR-21 was revealed.
All in all, it is almost too easy to argue, no, point out, that the SAR-21 easiy suceeds the AUG as an infantry weapon. And in war, big talk about who copies who becomes irrevelant because what you need is not rethoric, but a better weapon. Unfortunately, it appears the MAF is stocking up on rethoric rather then hardware and brains.
Maybe when you guys come up with the MAT-21 then we'll talk. Other then that, to buy cheap stories of the SAR-21 being a AUG copy is indicative of your true level of grounding in reality. -
Well my apology then.....yet i still stand firm - SAR 21 aint really 100 percent Sg effort.BTW AUG stripping is as simple as ABC.....never stripped SAR ...so could not compare though.....but i'm telling you this....a blindfolded cadets could easily stripped it....and put it back
Morale of the story....not everything good from Sg are really own design -
Who ever said SAR-21 is 100 percent Sg? But it's undeniable that while not 100 percent Singaporean, it is clearly an indigenous weapon, and a really good one at that.
SAR-21 stripping is far easier then the AUG, that's for sure, ahving seen how both weapons break down. In terms of design, the SAR-21 is a generation ahead. It breaks down into three parts without any tools and it can be down within 12 seconds relaxing and not rushing.
Stripping aside, that weapon is a real mule as well, built to wistand the harshest of abuse and still work well. Teething problems aside, the SAR-21 is right up there as one of the finest firearms in the world.
Let's not start on another Indigenous weapon, the Ultimax. -
according to wat i know... your little AUG factory has closed... if they had been restarted... its probably to replace damaged or lost rifles durin service with MAF...
but ultimately... they will be closed... if no further orders are made.
secondly... the key component of the AUG MUST be imported from the original manufacturer.. this is one of the key agreedment set during license production to enable the original maker to limit and control the number of AUG malaysia can made... and of course pay for it.
looks like malaysia still got some way to go... before they can produce their own rifle locally...
however.... if malaysia is really desperate... i reccomend to you the Singapore technologies mobile small arms factory... which they sold to burma a few years back... that should speed things up abit...and you can bring them around during your national day for show!! -
i think we can keep our discussions within the scope of the weapon and not wander into politics and nationality here.
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seen all 3, touched all 3, tried all 3 (dry run). m203 version is cool..Originally posted by wuming78:characteristics? and wats it used for?
i only heard and seen pictures of the m203 and SAW variants. -
I'm afriad the paper "Tiger" in here has crossed that line a long time ago, chosing to relate his arguments about the SAR-21 to petty little politically/nationally motivated arguments which hold little water. I simply pointed out the all to obvious flaws in the typically malaysian style of his arguments on how the SAR-21 is "obviously" a copy.
One needs to look at the "obvious" logic of his arguments. Just observe the "SAR-21 is a adapted TAR-21" gag, true blue malaysian politicx...
Maybe the paper tiger needs to know a few more facts about the SAR-21 before he formulates his next "arguments", which would be good. Because it would be nice to hear an actual fact come from him once in a while. -
Bro... look at the Israeli TAR-21... its the bloody same design.. if not wrong TAR-21 came out first..Originally posted by tripwire:SAR failed to copy AUG??
why should SAR copy AUG in the first place?? AUG very good meh? can shoot nuclear missile out of its barrels har?
why not turn around and say that AUG dont posses many of the finer edge that SAR has.
SAR is a locally manufactured rifle for the use of SAF based on SAF requirement...
while i cant say if that foregrip would be for the better or not... one is certain... our SAR is considered one of the best even without foregrip...
if there is any copy here... that would be malaysia... since AUG aint from malaysia... they pay for the license right to reproduce(copy lah) 80 percent of AUG in malaysia... that factory already close liow ... because no buissness.... -
The TAR-21 and SAR-21 probably share interrelated design histories, not surprised at all if notes were traded under the table (and they probably where).
Those two rifles are prehaps the clearest sign of Singaporean-Israeli cooperation.