Navies
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Well, a few exercises with the USN, Indian Navy and the RAN, and "sinking" of RSN so many times, soon made RSN and General Chief of Staff realised that if RSN had to fight a war, there will be no more ships within the first week, or even the first 3 days....Originally posted by tripwire:i would have thought that your previous sentence was in reference to present time rather then the situation 8 years ago or more...
frankly... we all knows that the RSN has been on the last in line for any budget for a good few decades... i still remember the time when we only have 6 MGBs to be "proud" of... so to speak...
there was once a time i remeber that PM GCT actually said in a public speech that given the choice between a fighter and a ship... he would go for the fighter as they are cheaper and something blah blah blah... cant remember them...
Thus, the sudden emphasis on AAW and ASW warfare. No more ya ya. Even a lousy post WW2 sub would be able to sink the MCVs if properly deployed and used. Thus now RSN has the 5 dedicated ASW PVs, and the new Formidable class are armed to the teeth for both ASW and AAW. The purchase of the Soojmen is also to rectify the fact that RSN didn't have a sub force for it to horn its ASW skills. Of course, having good enuff hand-me-down subs also provides RSN and instant sub surface offensive power to threaten any sub surface and surface unfriendlies.
Getting a new fleet (4 ships) of submarine, (A19 or U212) is going to provide the edge RSN has never enjoyed before. (side comment: I like the Dolphins too.) Strengthening both AAW and ASW capability should continue to be an ongoing event until RSN can hold its own against experience Navies like the USN, RAN and Indian Navy in joint exercises.
I would hope the following things to happen for RSN:
1. purchase a decent helo for the Formidable frigates, ie, either the Seahawk or NH90(still my perference). Immediate.
2. upgrade the MPAs with anti-sub capabilites. Eg. add sonabuoys capability, plus any other detection devices such as a magnetic anomoly detector, a hyper sensitive IR detector, a SIGINT/ELINT to detect any surface and surface communications. Around 2006
3a. upgrade the sub surface force with 4 new advanced SSK. A19, U212, Dolphin or a Sorpene variant. Build 3 locally by ST Marine.
AIP or Fuel cell could be added advantage RSN should consider. Retained 1 current RSS Challenger class sub for training and convert 1 into a commando insertion sub. Around 2010
3b. purchase and build locally in ST Marine (in preparation for building the larger SSK - see point 3a above) mini subs for NDU insertion and minelaying. Also use mini subs to defend "choke points". An example of minisubs I am thinking of is the Russian P-130 or Piranha-T Small-class submarine. Around 2008 to 2012
See:
http://www.milparade.com/2001/44/02_02.shtml
http://www.rusarm.ru/products/navy/small.htm
4. Design and build a "modified and stretched Endurance class LST" (and call it whatever we want) into a Helicopter assult ship (note: Not carrier). A LHD would act as a command ship for ASW operation and any amphibious/assault operation. Around 2008-2012.
5. Add a new anti-surface missile into the infantry. Something like the Norwegian NSM. Upgrade MCV hard-kill and soft kill options. Add a torpedo decoys to the MCVs. Around 2005 to 2007
6. Introduce a locally design stealth OPV/Covette to replace the PVs. The PVs are then transferred to PCGs or sell to a third country. Post 2012
Just my 2.2 cents -
My mistake on the nos Laksamana...typo error...it should have been just 4.When i mentioned 4 deivered means 4 Lynx not Lekiu!!
Nos of improvement has been made to host of RMN asset like the Kasturi class FSG and Perdana class FAC.eg now every FAC are equipped with THALES DR3000 ESM among others.Kasturi just completed their SLEP hence more ESM/ECM,new SSM,CIC etc.For you boys who are still do not earn ur own pocket money.....go ahead believe the dated RMN or steven websites
I'm posting the facts not for u boys.....but for the men
Since RSN operate MPA (which actually RSAF) then i should include 4 X BEECHCRAFT B200T MPA and 1 X PC -130H-MP which are use for MPA.
RMN helo are flown,maintain,own,paid by RMN and not RMAF......on the other hand RSN do not have such capabilities.RMN are in the final round to select 4 x armed MPA soon.
I'm not in the mood to start another the biggest dick thread like u guys have done to my ASTROS thread......simply getting the facts rite. -
I know its a bit off topic.... but I just had a thought for a multipurpose UAV. Create a very fast flying UAV that has a very high radar signature. Send the thing blasting over any enemy territory be it sea or land. And then let enemy AA weapons and ships reveal their positions. Best for it to be disposable and add a cheap warhead so you can just crash it into targets of opportunity when fuel runs out.
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Why not just get IAI Harpy?Originally posted by V1NS@niTY:I know its a bit off topic.... but I just had a thought for a multipurpose UAV. Create a very fast flying UAV that has a very high radar signature. Send the thing blasting over any enemy territory be it sea or land. And then let enemy AA weapons and ships reveal their positions. Best for it to be disposable and add a cheap warhead so you can just crash it into targets of opportunity when fuel runs out. -
Originally posted by HARIMAU:
simi astros thread???
My mistake on the nos Laksamana...typo error...it should have been just 4.When i mentioned 4 deivered means 4 Lynx not Lekiu!! i knew it.... typo... 
Nos of improvement has been made to host of RMN asset like the Kasturi class FSG and Perdana class FAC.eg now every FAC are equipped with THALES DR3000 ESM among others.Kasturi just completed their SLEP hence more ESM/ECM,new SSM,CIC etc.For you boys who are still do not earn ur own pocket money.....go ahead believe the dated RMN or steven websites I'm posting the facts [b]not for u boys.....but for the men
as if you knew how good those ESM and ECM are vs RSN's... frankly you dont know either.... just becos its new... doesnt always mean its better... it could be because its cheap
Since RSN operate MPA (which actually RSAF) then i should include 4 X BEECHCRAFT B200T MPA and 1 X PC -130H-MP which are use for MPA.
RSN MPA carries the APS-114 and E2C carries the APS-138 radar... your beechcraft MPA carries what? APS-eyeball?
RMN helo are flown,maintain,own,paid by RMN and not RMAF......on the other hand RSN do not have such capabilities.RMN are in the final round to select 4 x armed MPA soon. RSN.. RSAF all under SAF... ours is a tri-service armed forces... i dont know about RMN ... but whats so great of a naval air wing? arent they all under MAF?? or you got a NAVY MAF, ARMY MAF and a AIRFORCE MAF?? important thing is we have them... and we can use them as where we desire either in support of army or navy... 
I'm not in the mood to start another the biggest dick thread like u guys have done to my ASTROS thread......simply getting the facts rite.[/b]
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If anything, time has long proven that the MAF are great at getting toys with lots of buttons, and they love pushing them, but really have no idea what to do with them at all.
"Alright, we have the latest, shiny (request chrome coloured) AD45X345A3452M253 MATBOLEH naval command battle computer! It can engage 25,000 targets in the air, land, sea and undersea... let's give it to the- AHHYEEEEE!"
*Kaboom!" Harpoon hit.
Post mortem they didn't know they had to plug it to a power source. ST marine retrieves it and find's it's a 286 DHX computer that had been chromed with space invaders and digger installed.
Extreme example, but you get the idea... -
um..can i ask what makes you think that way? are you referring to the time period after we get the Deltas?Originally posted by 84mmrr:yo, you abit optimistic. Juz between RSN &RMN, I think we lose. But we have RSAF that makes the difference. I believe our defence planner draw lessons from British ill-fated warships during WW2. Develop a strong Air force to rule the skies and turn enemies warships into sitting ducks
LOLOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:If anything, time has long proven that the MAF are great at getting toys with lots of buttons, and they love pushing them, but really have no idea what to do with them at all.
"Alright, we have the latest, shiny (request chrome coloured) AD45X345A3452M253 MATBOLEH naval command battle computer! It can engage 25,000 targets in the air, land, sea and undersea... let's give it to the- AHHYEEEEE!"
*Kaboom!" Harpoon hit.
Post mortem they didn't know they had to plug it to a power source. ST marine retrieves it and find's it's a 286 DHX computer that had been chromed with space invaders and digger installed.
Extreme example, but you get the idea... -
No doubt the m'sian have always a bad track record of maintaining n using equipments but let's not underestimate them n get complacent. They were like that doesnt mean they will be like that forever. They might improve n they can improve without annoucing or even showing as it could be their "silver bullet".Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:If anything, time has long proven that the MAF are great at getting toys with lots of buttons, and they love pushing them, but really have no idea what to do with them at all.
"Alright, we have the latest, shiny (request chrome coloured) AD45X345A3452M253 MATBOLEH naval command battle computer! It can engage 25,000 targets in the air, land, sea and undersea... let's give it to the- AHHYEEEEE!"
*Kaboom!" Harpoon hit.
Post mortem they didn't know they had to plug it to a power source. ST marine retrieves it and find's it's a 286 DHX computer that had been chromed with space invaders and digger installed.
Extreme example, but you get the idea...
A surprise in store for their opponent. -
yeah.. just consider the impact those sub have on any ship thin hull.Originally posted by tripwire:those aint no trainning subs... and as far as i check... RSN dont have afew dozen SSKs waiting desperately to be filled with crews that RSN need 5 trainning subs to satisfy the demand for trainning so many submariners.
important thing is... those subs can sink ships... who gives a damn if you called them trainning subs or pinky subs.... in war... we can turn around and call them SUPER SUBS!! STEALTH SUBS!! or any name we choose to give 
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Problem is the parts don't come easy. Remember.. those were antique.Originally posted by tripwire:E-2C is under both RSN and RSAF... check the navy seal on the E-2C if you no see....
how you know the last sub if for canibalise? how much spareparts can you gain from one sub and use to support 4 subs??
one sub for cannabilization if true... aint gonna be enough... and its dumb to cannabilise a sub just for spare parts... we aint that poor.. -
wow.. i must have failed my orbat or there is something missing from the list.Originally posted by HARIMAU:A bit abt RMN since bits posted by tripwire just aint that accurate
2 x F2000 FFG (aka Lekiu) armed with MM40 BLOCK II,VLS SEAWOLF SAM,AS 244S,57mm SAK2,DS 30B 30mm,Super Lynx MK 300 armed with depth charges,AS 244S and SEA SKUA (6 ordered 4 delivered to date)
2 x FS1500 (Lekir class) armed with MM40 BLOCK II,BOFORS 375mm ASW,57mm SAK,100mm COMPACT,DS30 30mm + MANPDAS mounting,able to carry Lynx yet at the moment likely carry AS555SN FENNEC (radar equipped for OTOMAT OTHT)
1 x YARROW TYPE 71 (Rahmat) armed with 114mm,40mm L70,ASW mortar and able to carry Lynx
1 x HANG TUAH (training FF not worth mention)
6 x Laksamana FMC armed with OTOMAT MK2,ASPIDE,76mm,30mm twin,AS 244S.
4 x Spica M FAC armed with MM38,57mm SAK,40mm L70
4 x Perdana FAC armed with MM38,57mm SAK,40mm L70
6 x Jerung FAC, 6 x NGPV armed with 76mm,30mm,RIM 116A SAM or MICA VLS,Polyphem SSM or MM40 can carry Lynx (1 delivered),2 OPV,21 PC armed with 2 x 40mm,17 CB90H armed with 20mm or HMG etc.....etc
1 SSK AGOSTA 70B armed with SM39 delivered.....another 2 SSK on order.....rumours has it RMN operate a nos of mini subs
RMN now has 2 sqn of helos operate and run by the navy with their own naval base.
so these baby dont have ASW capabilities huh???? -
For all who knows, rahmat primary attack might be ramming.Originally posted by tripwire:umm... actually hor.. that 8 FAC(M) of RMN not worth mentioning lah... no way they stand a chance one on one against RSN MGBs.
rahmat also not worth mentioning lah... no missile one... sitting duck more likely..
by the way... i thought malaysia's NGPV is gonna be delivered WITHOUT weapons?? or am i wrong?
so... actual RMN strength should be 12(?) helo, 2 lekiu, 2 lekir and 4 laksa VS RSN 6 MCV, 6 MGB, 4 E-2C, 4 F-50MPA and 4 subs? -
oh... may i know u are in which service?Originally posted by YI:wow.. i must have failed my orbat or there is something missing from the list.
rsn? which vocation? -
yah huh... why RMN haf so many vessels w/o strong armaments?? only haf the A Gun or wat only.... why some only haf MM38 or 40 only...Originally posted by YI:For all who knows, rahmat primary attack might be ramming. -
Source:
Submarines on Way to Singapore
(Source: Kockums; issued Jan. 21, 2004)
Following a complete refit at Kockums in Karlskrona, including modernization and conversion for operations in warmer waters, two Swedish “Sea Serpent” class submarines are now being shipped to Singapore aboard Dock Express, a large container vessel.
A third submarine is being shipped with its sisters, as a reserve vessel.
The two newly modernized submarines, now proudly bearing the names Centurion and Challenger, have served as training vessels for the Singaporean Navy crews who have undergone their training in Karlskrona over the past three years. The Swedish Navy has conducted the entire training program, which has been carried out in several stages.
Only a few ships in the world are capable of carrying such a massive cargo. The voyage to Singapore will take about a month. Each submarine weighs about 1,100 tons. Two modernized submarines in the same class, Conqueror and Chieftain, already await the arrival of their sister vessels in Singapore. In other words, the Singaporean Navy will soon have four modern submarines in service.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.2972290.1074784616&manuel_call_cat=3&manuel_call_prod=32202&manuel_call_mod=release&modele=jdc_inter -
so... total 5 sub lah.... wonder why they call it a spare sub... since there aint no parts in this world that cannot be custom made if neccessary...
i for one cant see the purpose of buying an extra sub just for cannibilazation... since ultimately... one day you will still run out of parts and be forced to customize order special parts...
and aint it stupid to buy a weapon that have serious problem in maintaing its seaworthiness due to sparepart shortage? -
Perhaps a point that should be considered in the debate of the combat effectiveness of the Lekiu class frigate is its sensor-weapon fit. As many of you may know, the Malaysian Armed Forces has an acquisition policy which sources from no single defence contractor. The Lekiu class sensors and weapon systems come from a number of European defence contractors and this caused a major delay in the launch and commissioning of the Lekiu class (over 3 years) because of integration problems.
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3 years is a very long time...
it probably can be implied that the problem they faced with the lekiu must be pretty serious if not very very serious....
who knows... maybe even now... the LEKIU could still be facing problem..
but this kind of information would be in the realm of serious intel. -
I do believe that RSN has a long way to go before it reaches the capability of the RSAF or even the Army. As others have said, it is not a secret that it was usually last in line for funding for most of the last 2 decades. Compared to its regional counterparts, it is rather lacking, especially considering its responsibilities. While the RSAF multiplies the power of our ships, you still need hulls in the water to exert sea control.
I think that this is changing, however. I think that planners have realized how vulnerable Singapore is to naval blockade, and how inadequate our forces currently are to break such a blockade. Also, the threat of maritime piracy and terrorism, while mostly the responsibility of the Coast Guard to deal with, also calls for greater naval power.
Even after we acquire the new Formidable class frigates, we still need more. Given our limited funds, I do not think that submarines are a good idea for us. They are too much of a one trick pony for too high a price, and the shallow waters of the region limit them even further. We should focus on obtaining more surface platforms similar to the Formidable and integrate them with our aerial and underwater UAVs and satellite reconnaisance capability. Joint operations with the RSAF should be emphasized and honed to perfection. -
I agree with you on this point man. What is the point of calling it a tri-service or combined arms when you do not even hold regular exercises between the arms and services.Originally posted by dkhoo:I do believe that RSN has a long way to go before it reaches the capability of the RSAF or even the Army. As others have said, it is not a secret that it was usually last in line for funding for most of the last 2 decades. Compared to its regional counterparts, it is rather lacking, especially considering its responsibilities. While the RSAF multiplies the power of our ships, you still need hulls in the water to exert sea control.
I think that this is changing, however. I think that planners have realized how vulnerable Singapore is to naval blockade, and how inadequate our forces currently are to break such a blockade. Also, the threat of maritime piracy and terrorism, while mostly the responsibility of the Coast Guard to deal with, also calls for greater naval power.
Even after we acquire the new Formidable class frigates, we still need more. Given our limited funds, I do not think that submarines are a good idea for us. They are too much of a one trick pony for too high a price, and the shallow waters of the region limit them even further. We should focus on obtaining more surface platforms similar to the Formidable and integrate them with our aerial and underwater UAVs and satellite reconnaisance capability. Joint operations with the RSAF should be emphasized and honed to perfection. -
underwater UAV??
i doubt they have the range and reliability.... in view of the difficulty in subsea communications...
and ... seriously... communications could end up revealing the subsea UAV location.. to the enemy subs on passive listening...
but if it is cheap ,reliable and can be mass deployed... like the US aerial LOCASS.. i might think its worth it..
by the way... looking at how modern ships like the formidable is becoming more and more like a sub.... why not make future RSN ships capable of diving? -
Incidentally, the delay of 3 years for the commissioning of Lekiu was cited in Janes.
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x2Originally posted by dkhoo:I do believe that RSN has a long way to go before it reaches the capability of the RSAF or even the Army. As others have said, it is not a secret that it was usually last in line for funding for most of the last 2 decades. Compared to its regional counterparts, it is rather lacking, especially considering its responsibilities. While the RSAF multiplies the power of our ships, you still need hulls in the water to exert sea control.
I think that this is changing, however. I think that planners have realized how vulnerable Singapore is to naval blockade, and how inadequate our forces currently are to break such a blockade. Also, the threat of maritime piracy and terrorism, while mostly the responsibility of the Coast Guard to deal with, also calls for greater naval power.
Even after we acquire the new Formidable class frigates, we still need more. Given our limited funds, I do not think that submarines are a good idea for us. They are too much of a one trick pony for too high a price, and the shallow waters of the region limit them even further. We should focus on obtaining more surface platforms similar to the Formidable and integrate them with our aerial and underwater UAVs and satellite reconnaisance capability. Joint operations with the RSAF should be emphasized and honed to perfection.
should RSN get 6 more Deltas and MCVs?