The Right Stuff?
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yea they are the "superior" one...back in my squadron..we beat them in every game n IPPT..sure they are "superior"..Originally posted by Gedanken:Yeah, well, he IS one of the "superior" ones.
for that pilot i mention up there...he is so "superior" that his gf dump for my fren
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And that, gentlemen, is the negative demonstraion of what a pilot should be.
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BASTIDO! MUTHA FARKER.Originally posted by Gedanken:Yeah, well, he IS one of the "superior" ones. -
But then again, how many of us have really worked with RSAF pilots? I was from RSAF TASC and I have had conversations with many senior pilots and worked with them before (hence gaining a understanding on their adminstrative and command skills) - but I have never had the opportunity to really know how good they are on the stick or what qualified them as pilots in the first place. And I don't think many people here do either.Originally posted by RussianPower:Look, how would anyone one know what's required of a pilot if you haven't spoken (not just idle chit chat) to quite a few?
Given our limited experiences and understanding on how good existing RSAF pilots are on the stick as well as their aplitude, it is highly difficult to take them as references for our discussions on potential candidate requirements. So to use a term cavsg and Viper52's coined, let's just participate in the "xiao di di" club and have a fun and informative time dabbling in our own amateur discussions.
If everybody knows what they want to know or would not accept anything without actual accurate facts at all, then we won't have this forum here would we?
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It is frightening to read that such careless pilots actually served in the RSAF. I should think there was a complete revamp in TRADOC and pilot selection process after this unfortunate incident, no?Originally posted by Gedanken:And that, gentlemen, is the negative demonstraion of what a pilot should be.
Do anyone here speculate that the result of this incident was due to inherent traits of the pilot? Careless, impatience or forgetfulness? If these traits were present, wouldn't the first class RSAF instructors have noticed it and chopped the pilot from grade before he even made it? -
It would be premature, and illogical to slime another service like that... especially when it comes to the real deal in war, you will be cheering those flyboys on as they provide life-saving close air support for you.
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to determine how 'good' something or someone is, u do a benchmark. just like u buy pc, u go read how fast something runs on a processor or how fast a graphics card can pump out frames. In car racing, there is always competitions to determine who is more skillful to win the race. for rsaf, to determine how good their pilots are is thru exercises with other airforces. so unless someone who have been to these exercises is going to share the outcome, we cannot judge how good they are. from what i heard back in the 90s when the usaf starts having detachments here, our pilots were always trashed by them. not sure how is it now.
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i wont if they start bombing us "accidentally" ...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:It would be premature, and illogical to slime another service like that... especially when it comes to the real deal in war, you will be cheering those flyboys on as they provide life-saving close air support for you.
if that happen..and if im happen to be alive from the "mistake"..im sure to seek out the pilot who did that...well there is no war yet..its still too early to say are they good enough..
im sure majority of the RSAF pilots are highly professional..but im not to sure about some of them ive met in my base.. -
Well, I heard a few years back that the RSAF trashed the USAF in their own RED FLAG, remember the movie "TOPGUN"? Yes, the US Airforce REDFLAG somewhere in the desert, I believe in Las Vegas. That is also why we have many of our RSAF pilots training in overseas bases where they can fly without getting into other people's airspace and have many targets to do their bomb runs...Originally posted by cavsg:to determine how 'good' something or someone is, u do a benchmark. just like u buy pc, u go read how fast something runs on a processor or how fast a graphics card can pump out frames. In car racing, there is always competitions to determine who is more skillful to win the race. for rsaf, to determine how good their pilots are is thru exercises with other airforces. so unless someone who have been to these exercises is going to share the outcome, we cannot judge how good they are. from what i heard back in the 90s when the usaf starts having detachments here, our pilots were always trashed by them. not sure how is it now.
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In the meantime they're turning our boys into street pizza and dropping us at 135 knots when the maximum safe airspeed is 115. In the latter case, I was actually there and, seeing the ground past my canopy, I wasn't too impressed by this particular flyboy's inability to distinguish between 115 and 135 (neither were the pathfinders, by the way).Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:It would be premature, and illogical to slime another service like that... especially when it comes to the real deal in war, you will be cheering those flyboys on as they provide life-saving close air support for you.
BTW, Laplace, as a psychologist I've worked with the RAAF on part of their pilot selection process - the qualities I mentioned in my first post are amongst those consisdered essential to the ability to perform the job. As for the rest of it, I've been on the receiving end of their handiwork and I have to say it's pretty damned poor. -
Don't forget that pilots are humans too, and humans make mistakes.... unfortunately, for people working in the military, a lapse in concentration could inevitably result in the life or death of others. As high as 80% of aviation accidents are due to human factors, and it happens to even the well-established airforces around the world....
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Just as RMA and aircraft technology continues to evolve, the requirements to become a pilot will continue to change as well.... flying abilities may no longer be as important as being able to manage all the avionics onboard aircraft nowadays. So what does it take to be a pilot? No one can be sure, which explains the high dropout rates.
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that was a major accident, it was all over the press during that time, the pilot was charged in court. commandos lost confidence with sembawang. the co of sembawang went to hedon and learn helo rappeling and went up with the cco to rappel from a UH, that picture showing both of them on the starboard side of uh preparing to rappel can be found on old airforce brochures and the sembawang museum. the uh was modified with a latch over the handle that releases the ropes, the pilot needs to release the latch, then he can release the ropes.Originally posted by Gedanken:I do believe it was 1992 or 1993 - this was in the batch just before mine. Four guys were on the skids and the pilot released the ropes. The company 2 i/c was one of the despatchers and managed to grab one of the guys but the other three dropped. My CSM was supervising from the ground and his heart stopped when he saw them drop - his first thought was that the ropes weren't tied properly around the carabiners. I believe the pilot received a suspended 8-year sentence. -
So you prefer not to have any CAS at all so as to eliminate all chances of blue on blue?Originally posted by NathanG5:i wont if they start bombing us "accidentally" ...
if that happen..and if im happen to be alive from the "mistake"..im sure to seek out the pilot who did that...well there is no war yet..its still too early to say are they good enough..
im sure majority of the RSAF pilots are highly professional..but im not to sure about some of them ive met in my base..
Blue on blue incidents don't just happen from the air bozo, it's just as happening on the ground especially when that Bionix starts spraying you with 25mm because you happened to move too far out of line. At over 200 knots and having only a few moments to identify you, somtimes blue on blue happens not because of pilot error, but because friendly troops were actually out of place of where they were supposed to be.
Of course, I hope you don't assume you are so pro yourself that the posibility of engaging friendlies with your tool of war is impossible. The truth is, it happens all the time not because people are lously or blur, but because war itself is a very murky affair and many times wrong choices are made. I don't see why flyboys should take the rap for the blue on blue reputation when such incidents are well distributed among all the forces... esp. arty.
Maybe you would like to charge head onto into battle without CAS and into an enemy malestorm of bombs, shells and bullets? These time deliberately aimed at you... I suppose your chances of survival are much, much higher.
Of course, it would not be fair to the entire service as a whole to site a few incidents as a sweeping label. One needs to know that countless more drops go without incident or mention, and it's only the handiwork of a few jokers that actually make the news. Because to be as widespread as you would make it out to be, our air force simply could not function. The truth is, statstically, egressing out of an RSAF aircraft is generally free of pilot error. And of course, you don't notice them as long as they do their job properly... thinking that your rapelling or paradrop was an issue of your own ability when in reality your life was hung by a thread they hold.
Is the general quality of our air force really so deplorable or is it just because of a few, big-headed individuals who think they are "above all". -
no..did i mention anything up there..on dun want any air support?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:So you prefer not to have any CAS at all so as to eliminate all chances of blue on blue?
Blue on blue incidents don't just happen from the air bozo, it's just as happening on the ground especially when that Bionix starts spraying you with 25mm because you happened to move too far out of line. At over 200 knots and having only a few moments to identify you, somtimes blue on blue happens not because of pilot error, but because friendly troops were actually out of place of where they were supposed to be.
Of course, I hope you don't assume you are so pro yourself that the posibility of engaging friendlies with your tool of war is impossible. The truth is, it happens all the time not because people are lously or blur, but because war itself is a very murky affair and many times wrong choices are made. I don't see why flyboys should take the rap for the blue on blue reputation when such incidents are well distributed among all the forces... esp. arty.
Maybe you would like to charge head onto into battle without CAS and into an enemy malestorm of bombs, shells and bullets? These time deliberately aimed at you... I suppose your chances of survival are much, much higher.
Of course, it would not be fair to the entire service as a whole to site a few incidents as a sweeping label. One needs to know that countless more drops go without incident or mention, and it's only the handiwork of a few jokers that actually make the news. Because to be as widespread as you would make it out to be, our air force simply could not function. The truth is, statstically, egressing out of an RSAF aircraft is generally free of pilot error. And of course, you don't notice them as long as they do their job properly... thinking that your rapelling or paradrop was an issue of your own ability when in reality your life was hung by a thread they hold.
Is the general quality of our air force really so deplorable or is it just because of a few, big-headed individuals who think they are "above all".
no rite..its u who assume that..
for me i prefer to bite my teeth n hope that my support bomb the rite target..
blue n blue incident dun happen? oh my..u come up on that one right? dun just look at us only..look at the American..remmeber anything from Iraq War..remember the convoy lead by a group of spec ops? the one where they almost win the war..hanging America flags on their vehicle? im sure its not that murky...so i guess we have to blame it on the spec ops people..they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time..
oic..now we are blaming the other service who are not pro enough?
oic..okok..seriously..i dun see much of a news on guys kena on guys at the land service..
read up the whole issue up there...so now we cant blame the pilot for making any mistake..becos most likely they cant recognise u..n its the G.Is fault when they kena bomb? cos maybe wrong coordinates were given by G.Is? so the pilots hands are clean? its that simple explain by u?
there u go..u put words into my finger..i never say anything on not engaging without air support..in fact i need every single service Land Air N Sea to back me up...are u trying to say otherwise?
about not noticing them..heh..i leave it to assume..
about the status of the Airforce..ask those who have seen bombing exercise..especially those lao jiao farmers pilot... -
n btw..KUDOS TO THOSE WHO TAKE THEIR JOBS SERIOUSLY
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Originally posted by NathanG5:
Since when did I say blue on blue don't happen?
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blue n blue incident dun happen? oh my..u come up on that one right? dun just look at us only..look at the American..remmeber anything from Iraq War..remember the convoy lead by a group of spec ops? the one where they almost win the war..hanging America flags on their vehicle? im sure its not that murky...so i guess we have to blame it on the spec ops people..they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time..
It was you who assume that I was pointing out that blue on blue does not happen usually. If anything, 50 percent of GF1 losses were due to friendly fire. Drawing from lessons learnt GF2, this proportion went down considerably. Now the greatest danger to combat ground troops is driving accidents... time to blame army drivers?oic..now we are blaming the other service who are not pro enough?
That's where the broad span of your ignorance is well shown. Apparently your only inking of the typical friendly fire incident is a plane bombing the wrong targets... which recieves good coverage from CNN. The truth is, blue on blue is far, far more common on the land then in the air, with far greater losses. From getting muddled and simply shooting at the wrong position, trigger happy sentries, to a tank mistaking that M113 for a BTR. Mispositioned air strikes are the least of your worries because it's far easier to communicate the situtation to an aircraft then the ground troop.
oic..okok..seriously..i dun see much of a news on guys kena on guys at the land service..
Statstically, In war, your you should be worried about getting shot and shelled by your own troops more then bombs falling on you accidently. I don't see you talking about how you are more worried about that happening. Apparently either you have double standards or are just "plane" ignoramus.read up the whole issue up there...so now we cant blame the pilot for making any mistake..becos most likely they cant recognise u..n its the G.Is fault when they kena bomb? cos maybe wrong coordinates were given by G.Is? so the pilots hands are clean? its that simple explain by u?
No, there are plenty of factors factoring into blue on blue and that goes far beyond a simplistic and sweeping idea of the hod rod pilot who is all to happy to bomb anything that moves.
Blue on blue usually happens when there is a misidentifying of target (most common), wrong cordinates (very often), miscommunication and sometimes even because some of the ground idiots called in fire near their position without considering the splash damage effect of cluster munitions or naplam tanks or CEP of bombs to plain incompetence on both parts. Trigger happiness is prehaps the furthest
Our RSAF pilots are far from incompetent in hitting their targets, and if you die from friendly fire it was because they thought you were the enemy and were really trying to kill you.
Trigger happiness is more of an aliment of the land rather then the air force, go ask any medic who treat such injuries.
The solution for friendly fire lies not in blaming either side, but building up better communication and situtational awareness. No pilot in his right mind would want to bomb friendly troops, unless they are as annoy as you that is, but I don't think the rest of us grunts are as ignoramus as you.there u go..u put words into my finger..i never say anything on not engaging without air support..in fact i need every single service Land Air N Sea to back me up...are u trying to say otherwise?
Nope, I'm just pointing out that your fears of getting bombed are misplaced, you should be far more afriad of getting shot by your buddies accidently, taking friendly grenades, having sg arty fall on you, and having an AMX-13 running over you in the heat of battle and crushing you to a pulp.
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If anything, modern CAS is often a precision affair, in Somalia Little Birds sucessfully strafed and held back a city of angry Somalis just across the road from the Rangers in the ground. Taken for granted, the air elements usually remove and soften up much of the resistence before your complianing butt actually hits the ground to do your job. Maybe you would like to think twice and keep your latent agressivness in check before you start questioning their competence in general. -
oh u didnt? my bad..didnt know u never say that..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Nope, I'm just pointing out that your fears of getting bombed are misplaced, you should be far more afriad of getting shot by your buddies accidently, taking friendly grenades, having sg arty fall on you, and having an AMX-13 running over you in the heat of battle and crushing you to a pulp.
If anything, modern CAS is often a precision affair, in Somalia Little Birds sucessfully strafed and held back a city of angry Somalis just across the road from the Rangers in the ground. Taken for granted, the air elements usually remove and soften up much of the resistence before your complianing butt actually hits the ground to do your job. Maybe you would like to think twice and keep your latent agressivness in check before you start questioning their competence in general.
ouch!! sorry dude..im not one bit afraid of being bomb or kill by friendly..
so much for precision affair during Iraq War..
indeed they were precision enough to hit their own guy..seem my words on the spec ops convoy incident is ignore..not worth abit to discuss? how about War On Terrorism in Afghan? can u remember any news on pilots killing their own on land?
u claim that our pilot are not incompetence? how do you know?
look at this picture now..
one using sophisticated technology..the other using an old age M-16..the one using the high tech stuff kill his own grunts on the ground...the other does the same thing..
we have more risk on the ground...all we hope for is a precision combat air support..
have u ever chat with a dude..with 3 crabs on his shoulder on how he feel about younger generation of pilots?
n yes i agree..we cannot blame each other..but to brush our skill n comms..
read my post again..did i blame 100% solely on the pilots?
look at your post again..did u hint its the fault of the ground troops?
wait a min here...did i say anything about Air Support not useful at all?
did u assume much of the things here yourself?
or trying to defend something u wish to be?
have u been on a chopper..where the pilots think its funny to scare u with their amazing flying skill..
oh so im annoying just becos i post my thoughts?
oh yea..i like it when that happen.
so much for frenly discussion.. -
u realize something..i can only quote part of your post..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Nope, I'm just pointing out that your fears of getting bombed are misplaced, you should be far more afriad of getting shot by your buddies accidently, taking friendly grenades, having sg arty fall on you, and having an AMX-13 running over you in the heat of battle and crushing you to a pulp.
If anything, modern CAS is often a precision affair, in Somalia Little Birds sucessfully strafed and held back a city of angry Somalis just across the road from the Rangers in the ground. Taken for granted, the air elements usually remove and soften up much of the resistence before your complianing butt actually hits the ground to do your job. Maybe you would like to think twice and keep your latent agressivness in check before you start questioning their competence in general.
u have any problem trying to quote mine? anyone? -
Becos of the fog of warfare ,friendly fire killed is sometime just part of today fast moving war as shown in GW1, but this blue on blue situation will be greatly reduce with NCW when all the friendly troop will be with GPS location f/b via the newtwork to the CP, therefore the commanders will know exactly where all his troops as well as the enemy locations with f/b from all the various sensors and will greatly reduce this blue on blue situation & maybe something from the past in a decade or so.
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No the problem is not because you post your thoughts, it is because your thoughts do not contain much thoughts behind them. And unfortunately, illogical thoughts when posted honestly, still remain illogical, and greatly annoying to anyone who has a basic grasp of reality reading them as well.Originally posted by NathanG5:oh u didnt? my bad..didnt know u never say that..
ouch!! sorry dude..im not one bit afraid of being bomb or kill by friendly..
so much for precision affair during Iraq War.. [/quote]
Dude, precision during the Iraq War was at an unprecedented level. Compare this to WW2 where 600 American G.Is were killed by falling stray bombs in a single attack.indeed they were precision enough to hit their own guy..seem my words on the spec ops convoy incident is ignore..not worth abit to discuss? how about War On Terrorism in Afghan? can u remember any news on pilots killing their own on land?
Are you insane? Have you not put more then a piscosecond of thought before you posted? The reason why friendly fire from the air now is so deadily is because the weapons and aircraft themselves are far, far better at getting their munitions onto the target then ever before. Even with unguided weapons, the CEP from aircraft can be as low as 20 feet.
Unlike you which can miss at 300 meters, a manverick can hit within a 3 foot circle from over 3km. Go figure. Precision? You have no idea what you are babbling about.
Those pilots misidentified what they were supposed to kill and they killed it. They were not imcompetent at their job of hitting targets, in fact, the truth is, they are so good at hitting and killing their targets, that when they aim at anything, be it enemy or not, it is as good as dead.
Precision and what target is actually killed are two different matters. I am amazed you could claim such a point.
And of course, if you would like to bring up these incidents, would you like to explain how the numbers of thousands of precision CAS sorties carried out in support of friendly troops happened without incident? Is friendly fire from the air as big as a problem as you are making it out to be? Or is it just an unfortunate, but ultimately unusual failure that happens in the fog of war that has little bearing on the precision of the weapons or the competence of the pilot?u claim that our pilot are not incompetence? how do you know?
Because staying alive as a pilot is a lot harder then staying alive as a grunt. You are in an environment where doing even slightly stupid things will get you killed. Contray to what you may like to think, crazy, risk taking pilots in the fast jets will be the first to die before they can even do any crazy flying stunts to scare you.
The fact that we have such a low rate of accidents, compared to some countries and a country up north, especially with how they have come out favourably with other air forces in exercises, proves that our pilots as a force hardly have attitude of incompentence throughout them. Cocky some may be, but actually incompetent? I doubt it.
You want an incompetent airforce? Try Iraq.look at this picture now..
I have already addressed this point. Aquiring the correct target and killing a target are two different things.
one using sophisticated technology..the other using an old age M-16..the one using the high tech stuff kill his own grunts on the ground...the other does the same thing..
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In which case, aquiring the correct target is based on many factors like intelligence, being on the right side of the line, not looking like enemy troops, and good communication. If all these work and the pilot still bombs and kill friendly troops, then he can be considered incompetent...
In all the suggested measures to curb aerial friendly fire, have you seen a "Increase pilot competence" one yet? No, because everybody, except you prehaps, knows that the pilots are already doing everything that is possible to avoid targeting friendly troops, but unfortunately thanks to the fog of war, it will happen thanks to murphy's law.have u ever chat with a dude..with 3 crabs on his shoulder on how he feel about younger generation of pilots?
I believe his grouses are more with their attitude, rather then their actual level of competence. If they were incompetent, he would be dead by their misadventures by now.
And of course, if he's land or sea, he probably dosen't know half of what he's talking about.we have more risk on the ground...all we hope for is a precision combat air support
And you already have it, modern CAS, is far, far more effective, precise, deadily and safer to friendly troops then it had been in Vietnam and WW2, the annoying thing about your ramblings, is that all that whining about friendly fire and hoping for precision combat air support is pretty moot, for you already have the best of the best at your disposal.
In which case, your posts are pretty akin to whining about why your M-16 can't shoot nuclear missiles.wait a min here...did i say anything about Air Support not useful at all?
Nope, but apparently you have a very distorted view of it. And as I have pointed out, most of your ramblings are greatly illogical and based more on emotion (hence the excessive use of emoticons to make no point) then logic AND AN ACTUAL STUDY OF FACTS INTO the subject.
did u assume much of the things here yourself?
or trying to defend something u wish to be?have u been on a chopper..where the pilots think its funny to scare u with their amazing flying skill..
Bad incident with a bad individual does not make the entire force in general bad... and you are alive today ain't it? So the problem was the pilot's cocky attitude and not his competence. So what's with all the rethoric about incompetent, wrong stuff pilots?
[quote]oh so im annoying just becos i post my thoughts?
oh yea..i like it when that happen.
so much for frenly discussion.. -
oh shit!!!! i just lost all my post..damn it..give me sometime to reply..knnz..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:No the problem is not because you post your thoughts, it is because your thoughts do not contain much thoughts behind them. And unfortunately, illogical thoughts when posted honestly, still remain illogical, and greatly annoying to anyone who has a basic grasp of reality reading them as well. -
Well if it helps you to feel any better, there was nothing personal agains't you, my main beef is always to adress ignorance and deal with hard facts, and not emotionalism.Originally posted by NathanG5:oh shit!!!! i just lost all my post..damn it..give me sometime to reply..knnz..
Ignorance is not bliss in the military, especially if it can get you killed... have you heard the "tatical reasons" for not equipping our troops with body armour? They hardly make half a pound of sense. -
dude i have nothing against u too..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Well if it helps you to feel any better, there was nothing personal agains't you, my main beef is always to adress ignorance and deal with hard facts, and not emotionalism.
Ignorance is not bliss in the military, especially if it can get you killed... have you heard the "tatical reasons" for not equipping our troops with body armour? They hardly make half a pound of sense.
i was planning to reply tomorrow nite..since u want my attention so much..
so here we go..
dude if u can debate on a much frenly way..this topic will go on a interesting path..
too sum up what im suppose to post just now..
u claim that im ignorant..thats fine with me..
every info ive got is base on 1st hand view on someone who is still in the related service who have all the right to comment on his boys...i will advise u to read on your own post again to see if it make any sense..
the thing we debate on is the competence of the pilots..not on whether if precision weapon are really effective..i wonder what make u stray to it?
so what if the weapon is high tech..if you kill your own colour..
u blame it on murphy's law..but not the one squeeze the trigger?
its all murphy's law..
look at your part on cockiness n competence..
cockiness will get you kill or get someone kill...
i find it weird that u seperate the 2..
seem that u think u know alot..guess u are in the service? longer then my acquaintance?
a incompetent pilot arm with a precision munition...saw a convoy..think its enemy..drop the damn bomb...n kill everyone..
who to blame? the convoy? is the pilot under attack that he have the right to return fire? if he bother to radio back to indentify the convoy...will that happen? is that competent?
the above scenerio up there is crap..make up by me(obvious right)
but how do the spec op convoy feel in Iraq War feel?
i would like to have body armour..if im a 6/6 ex All Star Quarter backs... i think i like to have one for my next in-camp
i remember this topic back..far back..damn far back..
think its related to the LSV topic right? -
ST, I can't say I know all that much about the performance of our CAS pilots, and in war, that really wouldn't be my concern - we'd be the ones taking out the radar stations ahead of them anyway. However, given my experiences with chopper and C-130 pilots and knowing how they could make life miserable for us, despite the fact they they were supposed to be on our side, I can only hope that the CAS pilots are better at their jobs.