MINDEF discusses technical details with Typhoon test pilot
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Source: Channel NewsAsia
S'pore MINDEF discusses technical details of flying Typhoon jet with test pilot
SINGAPORE: One of the three fighters in contention to replace Singapore's aging A4-Skyhawks is the Eurofighter Typhoon. Recently, a test pilot for this state-of-the art jet was in town and he told Channel NewsAsia why he thought the Eurofighter might win the dogfight for the more than US$1 billion contract.
Craig Penrice has more than 4,500 hours of flying experience in over 40 different types of aircraft.
Among them the American Boeing F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon, which are currently going head-to-head in a dogfight with the French Rafale to replace Singapore's Skyhawks.
But Mr Penrice, who is now testing the Typhoon, considers it the better of the two and the jewel in the crown is its cockpit.
"Things like being able to command the plane through voice control. I can do many tasks by simply talking to the plane. In my helmet, I have tactical information so wherever I'm looking, I don't have to look at the displays in the cockpit. Wherever I'm looking behind, outside I still have information available to me, this head-up-head-out looking out the plane is vitally important," he said.
BAE Systems which builds the Typhoon has been eyeing the Singapore contract for more than 4 years now.
Buying a new generation fighter jet is not a simple task.
It's much more complex than buying a new car for example. The technical details are so sophisticated and complex, BAE Systems specialists get questioned by MINDEF officials on technical issues a few times a day.
This is why Mr Penrice was in town recently to give the Defence Ministry his perspective as a Typhoon test pilot.
"Because we know what it is that the service pilot needs out of his airplane. Engineers appreciate that knowledge and they do listen to us. But with all the best intention something doesn't quite work as envisaged, we report on that and we discuss it and we come up with a plan to improve it," added Mr Penrice.
BAE Systems' Typhoon Export Programme Director, Andy Wilson, said: "The next phase we'll have to put formal information in front of the authorities here in terms of the specifications and costing data. All of that will be evaluated and assessed by the Singappore government before making their preferred choice."
Singaporeans may get a glimpse of the Eurofighter Typhoon next month at Asian Aerospace.
But the Defence Ministry is not expected to make its final choice till 2005. - CNA -
HUDs have been around for generations of fighter aircraft already.Originally posted by nWo:"Things like being able to command the plane through voice control. I can do many tasks by simply talking to the plane. In my helmet, I have tactical information so wherever I'm looking, I don't have to look at the displays in the cockpit. Wherever I'm looking behind, outside I still have information available to me, this head-up-head-out looking out the plane is vitally important," he said.
As for voice-activation, he conveniently forgot that the first operational (which is more than we can call the Typhoon) fighter to use that also happens to be one of the Typhoon's rival; the Rafale
Yup... a 1:1 wooden scale model. Like in 1996, 1998, 2000 and 2002. Ooohs and ahhhs...forgive me for not jumping up and down in excitement.Singaporeans may get a glimpse of the Eurofighter Typhoon next month at Asian Aerospace.
A fighter that
1)has not even been cleared to make intercontinental flights to visit potential customer countries
2) Has a test program that has delayed again and again
3) suffered so many cost overruns it scandalous
4) designed and built by a partnership about as solid as a house of cards
5) claims to be multirole...eventually (when the eventuality is, well another matter)
6) is dependent on a BVR missile from a country we can trust as far as we can throw as its primary BVRAAM, until 2012 (best case scenario)
I don't want to mention the crash because it was a one-off accident that I believe does not reflect on the product in any way
up against a solid combat proven design which proven its multirole ability, and the other who started life on the drawing board later than the Typhoon but whose pure A/A version is in operational service already while the delivery date of the first operational multirole version is imminent.
Need I say more? -
Whoa. That means AA2004 will not be when the deal is announced? DSTA really like to drag things man...But the Defence Ministry is not expected to make its final choice till 2005. - CNA
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Source : MIW Website
Article dated 3rd November 2003
Singapore assured of French support in warplane deal
Singapore gets French government support in joint on-board radar development and greater access to training areas in France if Rafale is chosen over two other aircraft...
Should Singapore go with the French aviation giant, Dassault Aviation, in opting for Rafale as the warplane to replace the SAF's aging A-4 Super Skyhawks, greater collaboration is expected in the pipeline. For one, a joint development of the Rafale's on-board radar - the advanced RBE-2 radar, is expected. This was reinforced by Marc Perrin de Brichambaut, the French Defence Ministry strategic affairs director, "It's true that if you get involved in the Rafale, the development of the new radar is to be done jointly."
Another plus factor for choosing the multi-role French fighter craft would grant "air space scarce" Singapore greater access to air force training areas in France.
Currently, MINDEF has short listed 3 fighter crafts from 3 respective contenders - F15T Strike Eagle from Boeing; Rafale from Dassault Aviation and Euro Typhoon from a consortium of European aircraft companies, in supplying sophisticated warplanes for the Republic's Air Force. If MINDEF does go with the Rafale deal, this will supplement its previous order of 6 stealth frigates from France's Direction des Constructions Navales International (DCN). The 110m-long frigates are being built both in France and in Singapore. They are expected to be commissioned here in Singapore in 2005.
The stealth warship is built with maximum security and firepower under its hood. It will be armed with guns, anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles, making it self-contained. To add to its already "invincible" status, each frigate will have a naval helicopter on board for search and destroy missions of enemy submarines. According to Mr de Brichambaut, the frigates are equipped with the best equipment, "...you (Singapore) have tended to choose the best equipment on these frigates. Most of that equipment has not been integrated before on a project of this scale."
A spin-off from this defence arrangement is France benefiting from Singapore geo-political knowledge of the region. Singapore's awareness of regional developments in a broader context will as a consequence aid France it its counter-terrorism planning. - Patrick, G. -
sound like a gd deal to me...
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Not to mention Singapore would be able to integrate weapons that are not currently used by the French, such as Python 4, Derby, Mavericks, etc.Originally posted by NathanG5:sound like a gd deal to me...
If RSAF does end up with Rafales, I hope we get both the active radar Mica as well as the IR version as primary AAMs. -
Control a plane thru voice control? Thats new.
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Python 4? Behind time liao Joe Black!Originally posted by Joe Black:Not to mention Singapore would be able to integrate weapons that are not currently used by the French, such as Python 4, Derby, Mavericks, etc.
If RSAF does end up with Rafales, I hope we get both the active radar Mica as well as the IR version as primary AAMs.
Imagine a full weapons suite of Mica EM/IR, Python 5 and Derby!
Now that'd be a weapons suite worth salivating for. Not to mention they can be integrated with the Vipers (the Israelis/French could help since Israel has experience integrating new weapons into the Viper). Then we can junk the 2nd rate Sidewinders we have as well as not to worry about US reluctance to fully support the AMRAAMs should that ever occur (which are arguably inferior to Mica/Derby in certain respects anyway). -
HUDs have been around for generations of fighter aircraft already.
the pilot is talking about his helmet mounted display (HMSS)
As for voice-activation, he conveniently forgot that the first operational (which is more than we can call the Typhoon) fighter to use that also happens to be one of the Typhoon's rival; the Rafale
DVI? no big deal, it was took out of the raptor becos the pilots didn't like it. some more its not used for safety critical systems like weapons firing. -
Originally posted by Viper52:
I cannot help but feel the need to correct your points. i've always held your comments with high regards but this time u write no different from many xiao di di here.[/b]
Yup... a 1:1 wooden scale model. Like in 1996, 1998, 2000 and 2002. Ooohs and ahhhs...forgive me for not jumping up and down in excitement.
A fighter that
1)has not even been cleared to make intercontinental flights to visit potential customer countries
[b] did LM flew a blk 52 anywhere to sell it to customers? did the F-16A flew here to convice rsaf to buy? did eurofighter flew to greece or austria to convice them to buy? did gripen flew to south africa to convice them to buy it? u are not a pilot so don't comment anything about 'cleared for intercontinental flight' u think what, need faa, caa jaa certification just to fly across borders ah? or to cross the atlantic? the fu!cking costs of AA is putting off alot of companies, its bloody expensive to come for AA. 1998 the sukhoi's fuel for the flying display was sponsored by alpha-s cos they got no more $$ to buy fuel. its cheaper to fly rsaf pilots on 1st class to europe and fly the plane there then to come for AA and what? just to give CAF a joy ride huh
2) Has a test program that has delayed again and again
rafale A flew 1st 4 july 1986, rafale C 1991, wow no delays huh
3) suffered so many cost overruns it scandalous
rafale dun have meh? well maybe french have better accountants
4) designed and built by a partnership about as solid as a house of cards
and still can convice so many countries to buy it
5) claims to be multirole...eventually (when the eventuality is, well another matter)
correct on this one
6) is dependent on a BVR missile from a country we can trust as far as we can throw as its primary BVRAAM, until 2012 (best case scenario)
no comments
I don't want to mention the crash because it was a one-off accident that I believe does not reflect on the product in any way
up against a solid combat proven design which proven its multirole ability, and the other who started life on the drawing board later than the Typhoon but whose pure A/A version is in operational service already while the delivery date of the first operational multirole version is imminent.
Need I say more?[/b] -
My bad. But all the same, helmet-mounted displays are not new, and certainly not pioneered by the Eurofighter.Originally posted by cavsg:the pilot is talking about his helmet mounted display (HMSS)
DVI? no big deal, it was took out of the raptor becos the pilots didn't like it. some more its not used for safety critical systems like weapons firing. -
Please no more USA F-15
both Typhoon and Rafale is alright for me -
1)has not even been cleared to make intercontinental flights to visit potential customer countries
did LM flew a blk 52 anywhere to sell it to customers? did the F-16A flew here to convice rsaf to buy? did eurofighter flew to greece or austria to convice them to buy? did gripen flew to south africa to convice them to buy it? u are not a pilot so don't comment anything about 'cleared for intercontinental flight' u think what, need faa, caa jaa certification just to fly across borders ah? or to cross the atlantic? the fu!cking costs of AA is putting off alot of companies, its bloody expensive to come for AA. 1998 the sukhoi's fuel for the flying display was sponsored by alpha-s cos they got no more $$ to buy fuel. its cheaper to fly rsaf pilots on 1st class to europe and fly the plane there then to come for AA and what? just to give CAF a joy ride huh
The original thrust of my argument is similar to that in the 2nd point below. For an aircraft that has been in development so long, it is nothing short of surprising, to say the least, that it is still not cleared for long flights. If you want to use yardsticks of its competitors, Rafale C flew in 1991 yet it managed to make its first flight here in 1996 (actually it was the Rafale B that came then, and it's first flight was in 1993). DA1 made its first flight in 1994, has 7 test aircraft and yet its test program has not achieved the milestones of its rival. Of course its simplistic to use this head-to-head consortium, and I'm not using it to knock the Typhoon, but my point, like it always has been, is that the delays and other political issues affecting the consortium and aircraft make it a very risky choice to make.
As for the part of FAA, CAA etc etc, thats not what I'm talking about. The fact is that he aircraft is not cleared by the consortium for long flights. Not the authorities, it is the companies who are developing the aircraft who have not cleared their own product for long flights. And that, is the official word. Not some rumour.
The key question is (as I've mentioned before): Can our fighter program wait for the consortium to get it's act together?
Its nothing about letting the brass take joyrides, they prefer junkets to Europe for those anyway. My argument has been rebutted out of context, but I'll admit, in my initial post, I made it easy to do so.
2) Has a test program that has delayed again and again
rafale A flew 1st 4 july 1986, rafale C 1991, wow no delays huh
See above
3) suffered so many cost overruns it scandalous
rafale dun have meh? well maybe french have better accountants
Again, they pale in comparison to the Eurofighter's. And the development schedule of the Rafale (and obviously the F-15), as I've stated before, is more suited to our entry-into-service requirements than the Typhoon. Anytime
4) designed and built by a partnership about as solid as a house of cards
and still can convice so many countries to buy it
So many? Off the top of my head, I remember Greece and Austria being the only non-participant countries. Greece has put its order on hold to re-consider the other options while Austria has admitted that its order has to do with the 4 EU votes the development member countries hold in its quest for EU membership.
5) claims to be multirole...eventually (when the eventuality is, well another matter)
correct on this one
So, do we want to wait while the consortium dithers? The question on the Tranche 2 and 3 is looking more and more a question of "if" and not "when" (remote but growing)
In short, of the 3 choices currently available, The Rafale and F-15 (not necessarily in that order) are my personal choice in terms of suitability before the Typhoon. We have our own schedule to keep, we cannot wait while the consortium hems and haws while their politicians fiddle
I cannot help but feel the need to correct your points. i've always held your comments with high regards but this time u write no different from many xiao di di here.
Its your right to raise questions, and the respect is mutual, but on your last statement, you have jumped to conclusions made pre-emptive judgements before thinking my points and your opinions through. Welcome to the xiao di di club.
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The question is will it be economical/worth it to buy this plane? The carrot being dangled to the Mindef is the opprotunity to develop the AESA version of the Rafale's radar, and probably plus some other technology thrown in for good measure...Originally posted by wombat:Source : MIW Website
Article dated 3rd November 2003
Singapore assured of French support in warplane deal
Singapore gets French government support in joint on-board radar development and greater access to training areas in France if Rafale is chosen over two other aircraft...
Should Singapore go with the French aviation giant, Dassault Aviation, in opting for Rafale as the warplane to replace the SAF's aging A-4 Super Skyhawks, greater collaboration is expected in the pipeline. For one, a joint development of the Rafale's on-board radar - the advanced RBE-2 radar, is expected. This was reinforced by Marc Perrin de Brichambaut, the French Defence Ministry strategic affairs director, "It's true that if you get involved in the Rafale, the development of the new radar is to be done jointly."
Another plus factor for choosing the multi-role French fighter craft would grant "air space scarce" Singapore greater access to air force training areas in France.
Currently, MINDEF has short listed 3 fighter crafts from 3 respective contenders - F15T Strike Eagle from Boeing; Rafale from Dassault Aviation and Euro Typhoon from a consortium of European aircraft companies, in supplying sophisticated warplanes for the Republic's Air Force. If MINDEF does go with the Rafale deal, this will supplement its previous order of 6 stealth frigates from France's Direction des Constructions Navales International (DCN). The 110m-long frigates are being built both in France and in Singapore. They are expected to be commissioned here in Singapore in 2005.
The stealth warship is built with maximum security and firepower under its hood. It will be armed with guns, anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles, making it self-contained. To add to its already "invincible" status, each frigate will have a naval helicopter on board for search and destroy missions of enemy submarines. According to Mr de Brichambaut, the frigates are equipped with the best equipment, "...you (Singapore) have tended to choose the best equipment on these frigates. Most of that equipment has not been integrated before on a project of this scale."
A spin-off from this defence arrangement is France benefiting from Singapore geo-political knowledge of the region. Singapore's awareness of regional developments in a broader context will as a consequence aid France it its counter-terrorism planning. - Patrick, G.
But the question I would like to ask is at what price??? Are we being suckered into helping to fund the development cost for the future version (F3 standard) because the French government is reluctant or simply don't have the dough to fund this development? Will we be paying so much more for the aircraft that the cost per plane would rocket to such a level that it would be a bargain to buy either the F15E or the Typhoon. Would we truly have the technology we wanted/promised, and recupped our investments? AND What about the cost of integrating non-french weapons, who is going to pay for this???
All these questions are simply hypothetical, we don't know for sure, we don't even know whether the radar can perform as advertised...There are simply too many uncertainties when it comes to choosing this plane, is that why NO other country has opt for it???
Much as I admire the Rafale, I have much trepidation when it comes to the selection of this plane. We don't want a white elephant, DO WE???
(PS: If MINDEF is reading this thread, please get this into your head!!!) -
The Eurofighter was as much a politically driven project as it was military. It was an attempt by European states to exhibit solidarity and a "can-do" spirit so as to ward off the "everything comes from across the Atlantic" phenomenon that was happening during the 1980s.
The 620 planes on the launch order list are for the states whose aerospace industries are involved in it's production. Austria and Greece are the only two European/Med countries who are not involved in Eurofighter production/techno design although the Greeks are expected to push the Hellenic Aerospace industry into the Consortium.
Because the Eurofighter is a multination project, it has its share of delays and inflated budget exceeds as well as technological compromises to meet the requirements and capabilties of member states. Most significant of these was that it was a fighter meant for the cold war eighties that could only start flying in production status in 2001. Many analysts point their fingers at the governments of Germany and Italy for failing to forfill their part of the contract on time in in fullness. Already recent UK defence budget reviews spell uncertainty for the Eurofighter when the bulwark project partner's involvement in Tranche 2 and 3 are becoming more uncertain. -
Typhoon is not coming to AA2004. Featured in Fri 13 Feb ZaoBao, page 2.Originally posted by Viper52:Yup... a 1:1 wooden scale model. Like in 1996, 1998, 2000 and 2002. Ooohs and ahhhs...forgive me for not jumping up and down in excitement.
A fighter that
1)has not even been cleared to make intercontinental flights to visit potential customer countries -
Export Boost
AW&ST
Feb 23, 2004
Launch of key software upgrade may improve Rafale's Singapore prospects despite potential slowdown in French orders.
French plans to go ahead with an anti-ship/reconnaissance upgrade for the Dassault Rafale fighter and ensure timely air force service entry signal the government's willingness to boost the aircraft's export potential. However, the extent of that support is unclear.
Defense procurement agency DGA reaffirmed on Feb. 2 that an audit ordered to evaluate whether existing Rafale delivery timetables can be maintained --as well as who will pay for the impact of previous stretchouts-- would have no effect on export sales. In particular, the DGA said the review should not affect a Singapore air force competition to be decided later this year. The Rafale has been shortlisted for the 20-aircraft purchase, along with the Boeing F-15 and Eurofighter Typhoon.
A dozen Rafales are currently in service with the French navy on the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier. These have only the basic F1 software package, with a limited air-to-air engagement capability, although a second flotilla with upgraded software is to be added over the next five years.
Moreover, the DGA confirmed that a contract for development of a software upgrade designed to add a strategic strike, reconnaissance and antiship capability to the Rafale--the basis for the export version being offered to Singapore-- would be awarded by month's end. Known as F3, the upgrade is intended specifically for the new ASMP-A missile that will equip France's nuclear fighter-bomber fleet, but it will serve conventional applications as well.
In addition, the DGA insisted that further delays to the program, which is already 10 years late, would not affect the planned dates for introducing the aircraft into service with the French air force. This is expected to be another key element in the Singapore selection.
The first air force squadron equipped with the current F2 software--intended to improve air-to-air combat capabilities and add a surface strike dimension-- will become operational in 2006, as planned, the DGA said. The F2 package will allow the Rafale to carry the new AASM modular standoff weapon and Scalp cruise missile, integrated with the Damocles laser designator pod.
The first F3 nuclear-armed Rafale squadron will enter service in 2008, about in line with Singapore's target for initial operational capability. This version will be associated with a new-generation reconnaissance pod and other improvements. On Feb. 10, the DGA issued MBDA an award to adapt the MM39 airborne version of the Exocet antiship missile to the multirole version, as part of a larger Exocet upgrade award.
Furthermore, the agency said new delays would not influence the total number of Rafales to be acquired(294), and in particular a pending buy of a new batch of multirole aircraft to supplement the 61 on order. The government said this purchase, which had been expected in 2003, would go ahead this year, although it did not specify whether the buy would cover all 59 aircraft originally planned. In fact, officials noted, a lower delivery rate could actually benefit the Rafale in Singapore, by freeing up production slots.
For their part, Dassault Aviation executives noted that the second issue in the audit--who is to pay for extra costs to replace obsolescent electronics stemming from past delays-- will affect only existing F1 standard aircraft, not future purchases. Replacing these components will entail considerable redesign, testing and rejigging of production that could cost several hundred million dollars or more, they indicated.
Nevertheless, despite broad evidence of the government's good will, Dassault officials--mindful of past refusals to support export upgrades with state money-- remain unsure of the ultimate level of public commitment. True, Singapore has been offered the possibility of using air force training facilities in Cazaux, France, and participating in development of a new RBE-2 active-phased array antenna radar for the Rafale(AW&ST Nov. 10 , 2003,p.19).
But Dassault considers that a French government commitment to the RBE2, which is only at the demonstration stage, may be crucial to the outcome. Currently, France does not plan to launch development of the radar until 2008. The RBE 2 would permit use of the new-generation Meteor beyond-visual-range weapon, to be introduced in 2012, as well as an all-weather metric-precision AASM version and future suppression of enemy air defense systems(AW&ST June 23 , 2003,p.3
.
No indication was given about the number of aircraft that might be affected by the possible delivery cutback. But the two air force squadrons would account for around 40 of the 76 aircraft to be delivered by 2008, and the naval flotilla for a dozen more. -
Originally posted by Viper52:
Well from what i heard...the Singapore version still being assembled......
[b]
1)has not even been cleared to make intercontinental flights to visit potential customer countries
did LM flew a blk 52 anywhere to sell it to customers? did the F-16A flew here to convice rsaf to buy? did eurofighter flew to greece or austria to convice them to buy? did gripen flew to south africa to convice them to buy it? u are not a pilot so don't comment anything about 'cleared for intercontinental flight' u think what, need faa, caa jaa certification just to fly across borders ah? or to cross the atlantic? the fu!cking costs of AA is putting off alot of companies, its bloody expensive to come for AA. 1998 the sukhoi's fuel for the flying display was sponsored by alpha-s cos they got no more $$ to buy fuel. its cheaper to fly rsaf pilots on 1st class to europe and fly the plane there then to come for AA and what? just to give CAF a joy ride huh
The original thrust of my argument is similar to that in the 2nd point below. For an aircraft that has been in development so long, it is nothing short of surprising, to say the least, that it is still not cleared for long flights. If you want to use yardsticks of its competitors, Rafale C flew in 1991 yet it managed to make its first flight here in 1996 (actually it was the Rafale B that came then, and it's first flight was in 1993). DA1 made its first flight in 1994, has 7 test aircraft and yet its test program has not achieved the milestones of its rival. Of course its simplistic to use this head-to-head consortium, and I'm not using it to knock the Typhoon, but my point, like it always has been, is that the delays and other political issues affecting the consortium and aircraft make it a very risky choice to make.
As for the part of FAA, CAA etc etc, thats not what I'm talking about. The fact is that he aircraft is not cleared by the consortium for long flights. Not the authorities, it is the companies who are developing the aircraft who have not cleared their own product for long flights. And that, is the official word. Not some rumour
Oh and 1 more thing...the french actually flew the damn plane all the way here?Who refueled them ar? -
I don't know what they mean by that, Singapore version being assembled? The Tranche 1 is still in low rate production, going to the 4 consortium members. The Tranche 2 is still mostly on paper, like the Tranche 3.Originally posted by |-|05|:Well from what i heard...the Singapore version still being assembled......
Oh and 1 more thing...the french actually flew the damn plane all the way here?Who refueled them ar?
The Rafale has flown here since AA'96, usually with Mirage 2000s. Refueled by French AF C-135FR tankers with stopovers in a few countries. -
Any idea we will be allowed to use US missiles (AIM-120, Maverick, Harpoon etc) on the Typhoon and Rafale?
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That's what the people at the eurofighter at AA04 said.Originally posted by Viper52:I don't know what they mean by that, Singapore version being assembled? The Tranche 1 is still in low rate production, going to the 4 consortium members. The Tranche 2 is still mostly on paper, like the Tranche 3.
The Rafale has flown here since AA'96, usually with Mirage 2000s. Refueled by French AF C-135FR tankers with stopovers in a few countries.
Oh and the the rafale and the eurofighter people think the biggest treat is boeing and not each other....interesting...
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Probably be software upgrades on the Rafale to allow that to happen. Typhoon is quite all right with american weapons.
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Of course S'pore would get all this, no problem at all. And with some SCALP-EG and AASM on top of that !Originally posted by Joe Black:Not to mention Singapore would be able to integrate weapons that are not currently used by the French, such as Python 4, Derby, Mavericks, etc.
If RSAF does end up with Rafales, I hope we get both the active radar Mica as well as the IR version as primary AAMs. -
On Typhoon probably, on Rafale forget it.Originally posted by touchstone_2000:Any idea we will be allowed to use US missiles (AIM-120, Maverick, Harpoon etc) on the Typhoon and Rafale? -
heard from source in DSTA "rafale in good position"
anyway i dun see why we tax payers should spend our money on an aircraft that its own govt is reluctant to buy.
french aircraft are never cheap to maintain, the french once charge rsaf for $75 for ---- A GASGET!!! A "flight certified" GASGET, can u imagine that.
this competition ultimately doesn't depend on how capable the planes are but now cheap it will be able to upgrade and maintain in future. a few industry officials are wondering if singapore might forgo this competition and wait for JSF if the a/c is made avaiable in 2012, just 4 years from delivery of the new fighter.