Replacement for our LAW?
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if you read the forum "mbt in urban area" abt battle for the chechian capital grozny. You will find that it took them 60,000 troop against 12,000 chechian fighters or ratio of 5:1 just to secure and defend every building in the city. Not to mention the equipment + stacks and stacks of explosives, grenades and demo charges and other ordanance used in the process. In the end all the russians got was a city of rubble. Here is an excerpt of what happened.Originally posted by :Going according to the FIBUA exercise that SAF conducts, since we know some day hopefully not, we will fight in the hdb blocks of Singapore or in KLCC. Hence, using a LAW was not taught as we wanted to capture the building and secure hostages if any or reuse it as an objective to defend.
If we wanted the building to be blown to bits, I would just call for an FO or air strike!!!
LAW is a precious item 1 shot only, only 2 LAW to a section. What if you encountered a tank.
Sure but your point is taken as well, firing a LAW into a RPG mounted on the window would be good. My point was, not to use the LAW just to make a hole into a wall.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/grozny.htm
... City fighting in Grozny required much larger stocks of hand grenades, smoke grenades, demolition charges and disposable, one-shot anti-tank grenade launchers (similar to the U.S. LAW) than expected. Each infantry soldier needed a rope with a grappling hook for entering buildings. Light-weight ladders were also very valuable for assaulting infantry. Trained snipers were essential, but were in short supply.
Conclusion.
The reality of urban combat in Grozny was different than the urban combat the Soviets planned for. The terrain, circumstances and enemy were different. Grozny could not be bypassed. The Russians were faced with the dilemma of having to destroy Grozny in order to save it. The Russian Army also faced the same problem it faced 136 years earlier when it also fought to subjugate Chechnya. The Chechens turned every city, village and hamlet into a fortress and inflicted serious casualties on the Russian columns. On both occasions, the Russian army performed poorly initially, but adapted and eventually triumphed in urban combat. These recent Russian lessons are now being incorporated in Russian urban tactics.
With our current forces dun think that's any possibility to capture anybody's capital and defend ours at the same time. Not to mention protecting the msr artery leh? The most we can do is hold a few towns.
But it's good news for us, we have more buildings than in grozny. Any would be attacker will have to first contend with a difficult amphibous landing.
Then just to take the whole island for fibua They will need a ratio of 5:1 just to take us on.
The only reason why anybody wanting to attack us will be to totally demolish everything, which means not only the arm forces will be fighting, a few hundred thousand able bodied will be armed to the teeth, they will have so much problems up to their eyeballs because we will turn the whole place upside down and bury them here in the end they will get nothing. -
In December 1994, the Russian Army entered the break-away Republic of Chechnya and attempted to seize the Chechen capital of Grozny from the march. After this attempt failed, the Russian Army spent two months in deliberate house-to-house fighting before finally capturing the city. During the fighting, the Russian conscript force was badly mauled by the more-mature, dedicated Chechen force. During the first month of the conflict, Russian forces wrote off 225 armored vehicles as non-repairable battle losses. This represents 10.23% of the armored vehicles initially committed to the campaign. The bulk of these losses were due to shoulder-fired antitank weapons and antitank grenades.
The Chechen forces were armed with Soviet and Russian-produced weapons and most Chechen fighters had served in the Soviet Armed Forces. The Chechen lower-level combat group consisted of 15 to 20 personnel subdivided into three or four-man fighting cells. These cells had an antitank gunner (normally armed with the RPG-7 or RPG-18 shoulder-fired antitank rocket launcher), a machine gunner and a sniper. Additional personnel served as ammunition bearers and assistant gunners. Chechen combat groups deployed these cells as anti-armor hunter-killer teams. The sniper and machine gunner would pin down the supporting infantry while the antitank gunner would engage the armored target. Teams deployed at ground level, in second and third stories, and in basements of buildings. Normally five or six hunter-killer teams simultaneously attacked a single armored vehicle. Kill shots were generally made against the top, rear and sides of vehicles. Chechens also dropped bottles filled with gasoline or jellied fuel on top of vehicles. The Chechen hunter-killer teams tried to trap vehicle columns in city streets where destruction of the first and last vehicles will trap the column and allow its total destruction.
The elevation and depression angles of the Russian tank barrels were incapable of dealing with hunter-killer teams fighting from basements and second or third-story positions and the simultaneous attack from five or six teams negated the effectiveness of the tanks' machine guns. The Russians attached ZSU 23-4 and 2S6 track-mounted antiaircraft guns to armored columns to respond to these difficult-to-engage hunter-killer teams. -
The RPG-7V is a recoilless, shoulder-fired, muzzle-loaded, reloadable, antitank grenade launcher. It fires an 85-mm (PG-7) or 70-mm (PG-7M) rocket-assisted HEAT grenade from a 40-mm smoothbore launcher tube. The launcher has two hand grips; a large optical sight; a thick, wooden heat guard around the middle; and a large, flared blast shield at the rear of the tube. The RPG-7V is light enough to be carried and fired by one person. However, an assistant grenadier normally deploys to the left of the gunner to protect him with small arms fire. The grenadier normally carries two rounds of ammunition, and the assistant grenadier carries three rounds.
In recent years, Bazalt has developed the newest models of multifunctional antitank grenade weapons that meet the requirements of modern combat. First of all, it is an array of new ammunition items for the renowned RPG-7 grenade launcher. These include rounds with a high degree of commonality with base models and invariable rules and technique of their firing from the RPG-7 grenade launcher:
- PG-7VR with a tandem warhead capable of defeating modern tanks provided with apron explosive reactive armor;
- TBG-7V with a thermobaric warhead which in terms of lethality is comparable to the 120mm artillery projectile or mortar shell;
- OG-7V with a fragmentation warhead whose accuracy is very close to that of small arms.
The PG-7VP was the first grenade launcher round in the world which realized the tandem principle of shaped charge warhead functioning.
The thermobaric TBG-7V round operates on the enhanced blast principle. It is a powerful and effective weapon of a motorized rifle element. The warhead explosion creates a high temperature field possessing an efficient incendiary effect and simultaneously generates a powerful blast wave. In addition, the explosion forms a fragmentation pattern with an initial velocity of splinters 1.5 to 1.7 times higher than in the event of traditionally filled projectiles. The joint effect of these factors engages unsheltered manpower within a radius of 10 m from the point of explosion. The entrenched manpower is engaged even in the absence of a direct hit owing to the strongly marked "pouring" effect of thermobaric filler explosion products. When firing at lightly armored materiel, the warhead, due to its peculiar structure, pierces a hole 150 to 180 mm in diameter or makes a breach measuring about 200 x 500 mm. In either case, the explosion products get behind the armor and defeat the crew and mounted troops.
The OG-7V fragmentation round is particularly effective against weapon emplacements during combat operations in populated and industrial areas and on broken terrain. As a rule, these targets are specially prepared embrasures and firing ports made in brick and reinforced concrete structures for the delivery of small arms fire. The accuracy and effectiveness of the warhead ensures the first-round hit of such a weapon emplacement at a range of up to 300 m.
Thus, the RPG-7V1 grenade launcher with new PG-7VP, TBG-7V and OG-7V rounds allows a soldier to accomplish an unprecedented range of missions on the battlefield.
Antitank rocket grenades, as well as RPG-26 and RPG-27 dispensable grenade launchers, developed by Bazalt, are individual soldier's weapons intended to fight armor and destroy manpower in bunkers, brick and reinforced concrete structures and fortifications.
The technique of firing the RPG-26 and RPG-27 grenade launchers boils down to three simple operations. Having small dimensions (73 mm in caliber and 750 mm long) and a light weight (2.9 kg), the RPG-26 can be carried by a paratrooper. The RPG-26 warhead defeats armor up to 500 mm thick as well as reinforced concrete, brickwork and timber 1,000, 1,500 and 2,400 mm thick, respectively. Judging by the use of this grenade launcher in various local conflicts, it is considered the best soldier's weapon.
The RPG-27 is the follow-on to the RPG-26 grenade launcher and is outfitted with a 105mm tandem warhead, unified with the PG-7VR round and capable of defeating modern tanks at any course angle.
On the basis of the RPG-26 and RPG-27 launchers, the RShG-1 and RShG-2 assault weapons were developed to enhance a soldier's firepower in modern warfare. Rocket assault grenades with disposable grenade launchers, retaining all the merits of base models and provided with new multiple destructive effect warheads, can effectively defeat virtually all types of targets on the battlefield.
The antitank grenade weapons, developed by the Bazalt State Research and Production Enterprise, can accomplish traditional missions of defeating current and future tanks with enhanced protection.
The achievement of these objectives has become possible owing to the use of a principally new approach to the design and manufacture of weapons. First of all, this is a principle of modular weapon development. It is based on the creation and manufacture of a broad range of universal modules. Bazalt began to introduce this principle in the mid-1980s. The creation of universal modules is naturally more complicated than the development of traditional components and requires unique engineering approaches and advanced technologies that can ensure the weapon's long service life and conformity with assigned specifications.
The first universal module for antitank grenade weapons developed by Bazalt was a 105mm shaped-charge warhead tipped to PG-7VR, PG-29V and RPG-27 rounds. Principally new engineering approaches to the design satisfy the assigned high requirements in terms of effectiveness and use against armored materiel to be manufactured till the year 2005.
Their potential allows modernization of the warhead to increase its armor penetrating ability to 10 - 12 calibers and prolong the life of ammunition to the year 2010, at the least. -
Hi,jus a regular military buff here,anyway its interesting to hear tt the SAF is changing their Armburst LAW.I checked the Net,and I suppose this is the one MBT LAW made by Swedish Bofors.Cuz,when i checked Matador out,it turns out to be a Ballistic missile.So,i suppose it is the MBT LAW.Check it out here:
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I think its real good, that armburst getting replaced, but i hope they replace it after my NS, cos i will surely kao beh kao bu if i have to carry something like MBT LAW lor! So bloody huge!! Armburst knock head already pain lor...MBT LAW knock head confirm concuss liaoz.......
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actually also checked. Found 3 matadors.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Hi,jus a regular military buff here,anyway its interesting to hear tt the SAF is changing their Armburst LAW.I checked the Net,and I suppose this is the one MBT LAW made by Swedish Bofors.Cuz,when i checked Matador out,it turns out to be a Ballistic missile.So,i suppose it is the MBT LAW.Check it out here:
First as you said matador is a very obsoleted cruise missle built by the americans at white sands.
second matador is a very old troop carrier used in WWII
Third matador is a FCS.
So either there is really a matador LAW system or someone at mindef "let go" aeroplane ... -
I think they are one-use items so that ammo need not be a consideration for the weapon. Furthermore, as stated earlier by other people, I think that LAWs are meant to soften up targets and not to actually take out tanks. U need to be really lucky to get a hit with a LAW that can take one out. Most of time, you are hoping to disable the turret or tracks, immobilising the tank and then closing in for kill.Originally posted by :But the LAW is a crampy weapon though, one of SAF's purchaser for the LAW got somewhat conned that it is really good. Indented a whole stock of it...
I mean which ATW, anit tank weapon, can only be used once? Duh, you're bound to miss at least once!
Finally, they decided to phrase it out... when it came to my turn, I intended 30 laws to a Company! All of the men super high morale after the L/F.
And they still have more stock?
Each law is $50k I think
Each ATGM missle is about $1m <- I intended a couple of these babies for L/F haha... sweet!
You would'nt want to know how much my unit spent on ammo each year! Wander if its because I just indented alot alot! hehe
but having said all that.. really wished I could have been there to fire all those LAWs..
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As you yourself have said, the LAWs would be ineffective against modern tank armour, especially the Chobham type. Reactive with spaced and multi-layered armour behind.Originally posted by :Just want to query, are you infantry trained? Cause last time I checked the targets were tanks? Not BUNKERS or walls(why do you want a hole in a wall for? FIBUA, we use C4 door charge).
Btw, what a LAW(thus, the name Light Antitank Weapon) does is not blow up the tank like the ATGM(Heavey Antitank Weapon). Its meant to drill into the tank, and once inside, its creates a thermo heat reaction which causes the tank to heat up and melt the crew inside.
For the latest US tank used in Iraq, their armour has a reflective shield which most conventional ATWs would bounce off. Our LAW would be ineffective against it. The weakest spot is still between the turret. But thats the hardest spot to aim and also the most dangerous. The best use of the LAW in this case would be to aim for the tank's tracks. Once the tracks are destroyed, it will be a sitting duck. However, looking at the formidable US tank division, I will be over run by say a 100-odd tanks. Haha...
->The Main Battle Tank and Light Armour Weapon, MBT LAW, developed by Saab Bofors Dynamics, was selected in May 2002 for the UK Army Next generation Light Anti-tank Weapon (NLAW). The portable, short range, fire-and-forget system will enter service in 2006 to replace the British Army's existing Insys LAW-80 system that is reaching the end of its operational life.
We might follow the British... and get the MBT. But the Javalin looks sweet!
I read somewhere that Israel troops actually use a weapon that blows holes in doors during FIBUA situations as planting charges actually leaves the "Bomb man" vulnerable to sniper action.
And actually, some promotional material for the Armburst does say that it is effective against enemy emplacements e.g. Bunkers, pillboxes, MG nests.. -
After reading yr post, my recommendation to Mindef : BUY RPG-7!!!Originally posted by 5.56:The RPG-7V is a recoilless, shoulder-fired, muzzle-loaded, reloadable, antitank grenade launcher. It fires an 85-mm (PG-7) or 70-mm (PG-7M) rocket-assisted HEAT grenade from a 40-mm smoothbore launcher tube. The launcher has two hand grips; a large optical sight; a thick, wooden heat guard around the middle; and a large, flared blast shield at the rear of the tube. The RPG-7V is light enough to be carried and fired by one person. However, an assistant grenadier normally deploys to the left of the gunner to protect him with small arms fire. The grenadier normally carries two rounds of ammunition, and the assistant grenadier carries three rounds.
In recent years, Bazalt has developed the newest models of multifunctional antitank grenade weapons that meet the requirements of modern combat. First of all, it is an array of new ammunition items for the renowned RPG-7 grenade launcher. These include rounds with a high degree of commonality with base models and invariable rules and technique of their firing from the RPG-7 grenade launcher:
- PG-7VR with a tandem warhead capable of defeating modern tanks provided with apron explosive reactive armor;
- TBG-7V with a thermobaric warhead which in terms of lethality is comparable to the 120mm artillery projectile or mortar shell;
- OG-7V with a fragmentation warhead whose accuracy is very close to that of small arms.
The PG-7VP was the first grenade launcher round in the world which realized the tandem principle of shaped charge warhead functioning.
The thermobaric TBG-7V round operates on the enhanced blast principle. It is a powerful and effective weapon of a motorized rifle element. The warhead explosion creates a high temperature field possessing an efficient incendiary effect and simultaneously generates a powerful blast wave. In addition, the explosion forms a fragmentation pattern with an initial velocity of splinters 1.5 to 1.7 times higher than in the event of traditionally filled projectiles. The joint effect of these factors engages unsheltered manpower within a radius of 10 m from the point of explosion. The entrenched manpower is engaged even in the absence of a direct hit owing to the strongly marked "pouring" effect of thermobaric filler explosion products. When firing at lightly armored materiel, the warhead, due to its peculiar structure, pierces a hole 150 to 180 mm in diameter or makes a breach measuring about 200 x 500 mm. In either case, the explosion products get behind the armor and defeat the crew and mounted troops.
The OG-7V fragmentation round is particularly effective against weapon emplacements during combat operations in populated and industrial areas and on broken terrain. As a rule, these targets are specially prepared embrasures and firing ports made in brick and reinforced concrete structures for the delivery of small arms fire. The accuracy and effectiveness of the warhead ensures the first-round hit of such a weapon emplacement at a range of up to 300 m.
Thus, the RPG-7V1 grenade launcher with new PG-7VP, TBG-7V and OG-7V rounds allows a soldier to accomplish an unprecedented range of missions on the battlefield.
Antitank rocket grenades, as well as RPG-26 and RPG-27 dispensable grenade launchers, developed by Bazalt, are individual soldier's weapons intended to fight armor and destroy manpower in bunkers, brick and reinforced concrete structures and fortifications.
The technique of firing the RPG-26 and RPG-27 grenade launchers boils down to three simple operations. Having small dimensions (73 mm in caliber and 750 mm long) and a light weight (2.9 kg), the RPG-26 can be carried by a paratrooper. The RPG-26 warhead defeats armor up to 500 mm thick as well as reinforced concrete, brickwork and timber 1,000, 1,500 and 2,400 mm thick, respectively. Judging by the use of this grenade launcher in various local conflicts, it is considered the best soldier's weapon.
The RPG-27 is the follow-on to the RPG-26 grenade launcher and is outfitted with a 105mm tandem warhead, unified with the PG-7VR round and capable of defeating modern tanks at any course angle.
On the basis of the RPG-26 and RPG-27 launchers, the RShG-1 and RShG-2 assault weapons were developed to enhance a soldier's firepower in modern warfare. Rocket assault grenades with disposable grenade launchers, retaining all the merits of base models and provided with new multiple destructive effect warheads, can effectively defeat virtually all types of targets on the battlefield.
The antitank grenade weapons, developed by the Bazalt State Research and Production Enterprise, can accomplish traditional missions of defeating current and future tanks with enhanced protection.
The achievement of these objectives has become possible owing to the use of a principally new approach to the design and manufacture of weapons. First of all, this is a principle of modular weapon development. It is based on the creation and manufacture of a broad range of universal modules. Bazalt began to introduce this principle in the mid-1980s. The creation of universal modules is naturally more complicated than the development of traditional components and requires unique engineering approaches and advanced technologies that can ensure the weapon's long service life and conformity with assigned specifications.
The first universal module for antitank grenade weapons developed by Bazalt was a 105mm shaped-charge warhead tipped to PG-7VR, PG-29V and RPG-27 rounds. Principally new engineering approaches to the design satisfy the assigned high requirements in terms of effectiveness and use against armored materiel to be manufactured till the year 2005.
Their potential allows modernization of the warhead to increase its armor penetrating ability to 10 - 12 calibers and prolong the life of ammunition to the year 2010, at the least.
Hmm.. wonder if the militia in Iraq are using any of the new ammo, maybe that's why the Abrams there are getting kicked in their behinds.. hehe..
If the ammo works as advertised of course... -
haha.. ya.. remember when last time people shout "Take Cover" and you prone, if you are the LAW gunner, the stupid LAW always hit your head as you go down..Originally posted by tyco_mun:I think its real good, that armburst getting replaced, but i hope they replace it after my NS, cos i will surely kao beh kao bu if i have to carry something like MBT LAW lor! So bloody huge!! Armburst knock head already pain lor...MBT LAW knock head confirm concuss liaoz....... -
so either make it veri tight or mus learn how to prone sideways first.Originally posted by kurios55:haha.. ya.. remember when last time people shout "Take Cover" and you prone, if you are the LAW gunner, the stupid LAW always hit your head as you go down..
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Hit your head or hit your neck? Your head is protected by a helmet mah.
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have u tried it b4? the law tube hitting hard on ur helmet?Originally posted by Icemoon:Hit your head or hit your neck? Your head is protected by a helmet mah. -
Next time please quote the URL of the place you got the info from. Do give credit to someone who write it outOriginally posted by 5.56:In December 1994, the Russian Army entered the break-away Republic of Chechnya and attempted to seize the Chechen capital of Grozny from the march. ....
http://leav-www.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/rusav/rusav.htm -
Yeah... let us adopt the Russian RPG series to replace the Armburst.
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Won't be worse than a monkey ramp hitting the helmet bah?Originally posted by wuming78:have u tried it b4? the law tube hitting hard on ur helmet? 
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but no one uses monkey ramp as a weapon, or carries the monkey ramp on his back while fighting u c.Originally posted by Icemoon:Won't be worse than a monkey ramp hitting the helmet bah? -
aiyo.. u wear the helmet on yr head wat.. hehe... same same la.. either way, no matter wat the LAW hit, still irritating, esp when u do fire movement, leap and bound across some distance and every 4s u prone.. after that, your head confirm feel like gong gong..Originally posted by Icemoon:Hit your head or hit your neck? Your head is protected by a helmet mah. -
Well... the new weapon to ATGM to replace our LAWs should be released this year. When i cant exactly reveal. dun wanna get in trouble you know. but all i can say is that its much lighter and precise and more firepower. its a co-produced weapon by companys from germany and the usa. it has the name of a WW2 ATGM. so there.
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Hmmm...the Panzerfaust 3 is similar in capability to the RPG7Originally posted by cj1t08:Well... the new weapon to ATGM to replace our LAWs should be released this year. When i cant exactly reveal. dun wanna get in trouble you know. but all i can say is that its much lighter and precise and more firepower. its a co-produced weapon by companys from germany and the usa. it has the name of a WW2 ATGM. so there. -
There were no ATGMs in service during WW2 in any country. Unlikely that ATGMs will replace LAW because of cost and weight. Are you sure you are referring to ATGM?Originally posted by cj1t08:Well... the new weapon to ATGM to replace our LAWs should be released this year. When i cant exactly reveal. dun wanna get in trouble you know. but all i can say is that its much lighter and precise and more firepower. its a co-produced weapon by companys from germany and the usa. it has the name of a WW2 ATGM. so there. -
I certainly do not believe ATGMs will replace the LAW as its already in service.Originally posted by dragonstar:There were no ATGMs in service during WW2 in any country. Unlikely that ATGMs will replace LAW because of cost and weight. Are you sure you are referring to ATGM?
There's definitely a lot more new LAWs out there to choose from... to replace our old LAW. -
I am wondering if we should adopt the latest Russian RPGs as replacements for our LAWs. Reason being that they are cheap and easy to use,suitable for our conscript army. Secondly its track report is also pretty impressive such as the downing of the Black Hawk helicopters in Somalia and the damaging and/or destruction of M1A2 MBTs in Gulf War 2. I think we shouln't discredit the RPGs just because they are cheap and Russian. Just imagine how a supposingly cheap and crude weapon can still be effective in today's modern warfare.
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Sorry made a mistake in my reply. The name of our replacement for the LAW is the same as a name of a anti-armour weapon used in WWII. yeah..
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err..but a reportedly 200 RPG shots were fired?Originally posted by tankee1981:I am wondering if we should adopt the latest Russian RPGs as replacements for our LAWs. Reason being that they are cheap and easy to use,suitable for our conscript army. Secondly its track report is also pretty impressive such as the downing of the Black Hawk helicopters in Somalia and the damaging and/or destruction of M1A2 MBTs in Gulf War 2. I think we shouln't discredit the RPGs just because they are cheap and Russian. Just imagine how a supposingly cheap and crude weapon can still be effective in today's modern warfare.