China's defense advances due to some friendly help
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By Brian Hsu
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Jan 29, 2004,Page 3
Due to help from many other countries, China's military power has leapfrogged in recent years without showing any sign of slowing down, military analysts and sources said yesterday.
The Chinese military has made great progress, especially in the building of fighting ships, they said, thanks to Russia and an Asian country. It has also developed several new fighter planes, with Israel being one of the contributors to that effort.
Chang Li-teh , a senior editor with Defense Technology Monthly magazine, said China's shipbuilding speed is quite amazing over the past few years.
"Within a few years, China has already built several new fighting ships. Two more are under construction in Shanghai. They are comparable to the US' AEGIS destroyers," Chang said.
"The Chinese AEGIS-type ships boast phased-array radar as well as long-range air defense missiles and anti-surface missiles. They are expected to become operational in a few years. By that time, they will be a big threat to Taiwan," he said.
China obtained the phased-array radar technology from Russia and advanced shipbuilding technology from an Asian country, a defense source said.
"That Asian country is friendly to Taiwan as well. But it has its own strategic concerns while transferring shipbuilding technology to China," the source said.
Chen Hsiao-ming , a former engineer with state-run China Shipbuilding Corp, said it is a pity that while China is making rapid progress in shipbuilding, Taiwan has ceased to advance.
The Chenkung-class frigates were the last ships that Taiwan built on its own and that was 10 years ago. They were based on the US' Perry-class ships.
Chen, who was involved in the building of the Chenkung-class ships, predicts China's AEGIS-like ships will be go into service next year and that the balance of power in the Taiwan Strait might be lost by then.
"China's rapid progress in shipbuilding is due to a lot to help from other countries. Russia and some European countries are the helping hands," Chen said.
The navy is scheduled to take delivery of the first of four Kidd-class destroyers bought from the US next year, but the Kidds are outdated ships.
The Chinese military has also impressed the international community with its development of several new fighter jets, the most noteworthy of which is the Jian-10. The Jian-10 boasts semi-stealth capabilities and advanced design comparable to several Western fighters such as Israel's Lavi, which never went into production in that country.
An air force general, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the military is closely watching the development of Jian-10.
"The Jian-10 does have semi-stealth capabilities partly because of its design and partly because of its composite material. It will be a great threat to us sooner or later," the general said. -
that red part referring to us?Originally posted by cavsg:By Brian Hsu
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Jan 29, 2004,Page 3
Due to help from many other countries, China's military power has leapfrogged in recent years without showing any sign of slowing down, military analysts and sources said yesterday.
The Chinese military has made great progress, especially in the building of fighting ships, they said, thanks to Russia and an Asian country. It has also developed several new fighter planes, with Israel being one of the contributors to that effort.
Chang Li-teh , a senior editor with Defense Technology Monthly magazine, said China's shipbuilding speed is quite amazing over the past few years.
"Within a few years, China has already built several new fighting ships. Two more are under construction in Shanghai. They are comparable to the US' AEGIS destroyers," Chang said.
"The Chinese AEGIS-type ships boast phased-array radar as well as long-range air defense missiles and anti-surface missiles. They are expected to become operational in a few years. By that time, they will be a big threat to Taiwan," he said.
China obtained the phased-array radar technology from Russia and advanced shipbuilding technology from an Asian country, a defense source said.
"That Asian country is friendly to Taiwan as well. But it has its own strategic concerns while transferring shipbuilding technology to China," the source said.
Chen Hsiao-ming , a former engineer with state-run China Shipbuilding Corp, said it is a pity that while China is making rapid progress in shipbuilding, Taiwan has ceased to advance.
The Chenkung-class frigates were the last ships that Taiwan built on its own and that was 10 years ago. They were based on the US' Perry-class ships.
Chen, who was involved in the building of the Chenkung-class ships, predicts China's AEGIS-like ships will be go into service next year and that the balance of power in the Taiwan Strait might be lost by then.
"China's rapid progress in shipbuilding is due to a lot to help from other countries. Russia and some European countries are the helping hands," Chen said.
The navy is scheduled to take delivery of the first of four Kidd-class destroyers bought from the US next year, but the Kidds are outdated ships.
The Chinese military has also impressed the international community with its development of several new fighter jets, the most noteworthy of which is the Jian-10. The Jian-10 boasts semi-stealth capabilities and advanced design comparable to several Western fighters such as Israel's Lavi, which never went into production in that country.
An air force general, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the military is closely watching the development of Jian-10.
"The Jian-10 does have semi-stealth capabilities partly because of its design and partly because of its composite material. It will be a great threat to us sooner or later," the general said.
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my take on it is south korea or even india.
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Neither South Korea or India are particularly close to TaiwanOriginally posted by foga:my take on it is south korea or even india. -
might be us
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The assumtion that Singapore is that asian country is not totally impossible. For the past few years,Singapore relationship with PRC is getting better and better,it even reach a point where we even considered moving our Ex Starlight to Hainan Island. This is totally unthinkable in the 80's and even early 90's. If you have been noticing the shipbuilding developments of PRC,they have come out with frigates that resembled our new ones! I am just curious about what we stand to gain if there is such and aillance.
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Special Report: U.S. Military Technology Sold by Israel To China Upsets Asian Power Balance
By Tim Kennedy
Israel's Lavi fighter-bomber was designed to be one of the deadliest weapons in the air. However, it now has been revealed that after Israel discontinued the largely U.S.-funded project, it sold China the plans for the Lavi and the associated secret U.S. technology. This has enabled the Chinese to build their own version of this new generation of fighter aircraft.
The illegal transfer of plans for the Lavi aircraft from Tel Aviv to Beijing first became known by the Pentagon when an American surveillance satellite orbiting over China spotted several new fighter planes on the runway of a Chinese air base traditionally used for the test and evaluation of prototype aircraft. Imagery experts at the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) created rough sketches of the jet, then processed the graphic data through high-speed supercomputers in order to obtain three-dimensional representations of the prototype Chinese fighter planes.
Stunning Images
CIA officials specializing in aviation technology were stunned at the 3-D images generated by the computers. China's newest fighter jet was in fact a copy of the Israeli Lavi, which itself was modeled upon the U.S. F-16 Fighting Falcon multi-role aircraft.
Although Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), Israel's biggest state-owned manufacturer of arms and defense technology, was the Lavi's prime contractor, nearly 90 percent of the Lavi was funded by the Pentagon. This is just one astonishing aspect of the story of the U.S.-Israeli aircraft, the evolution of which was almost as Byzantine as its surprise ending as the most formidable weapon in China's military arsenal.
The Lavi program, as conceived in the early 1980s by Israeli military planners and their supporters in the Pentagon and Congress, was intended as an exceedingly generous gift from America to the people of Israel. The Pentagon never had any intention of including the Lavi in its own military aviation fleet.
The thinking among U.S. Defense Department officials was that the United States, having provided Israel for two decades with some of America's best fighter aircraft--including F-4 Phantoms, F-15 Eagles and F-16 Fighting Falcons--now should give the Jewish state the ability to manufacture its own state-of-the-art fighter planes.
It took American military officials very little time to decide which American fighter plane should serve as the model for the Lavi. They chose the F-16 Fighting Falcon.
The F-16 was--and still is--the American fighter plane most sought after by foreign governments. Compact and with a high-
ly maneuverable design, it has proven itself in air-to-air combat and air-to-surface attack.
General Dynamics, the prime contractor for the F-16, touts the Fighting Falcon as an "aircraft that provides a relatively low-cost, high performance weapon system...While operating in air combat role, the F-16's maneuverability and combat radius exceed that of all potential threat fighter aircraft. It can locate targets under all weather conditions and detect low-flying aircraft in radar clutter. In an air-to-surface role, the F-16 can fly more than 500 miles, deliver its weapons with superior accuracy, defend itself against enemy aircraft, and return to its starting point. An all-weather capability allows it to accurately deliver ordnance during non-visual bombing conditions."
Foreign military sales officials at the U.S. Department of Defense traditionally are tolerant of Israeli mismanagement of U.S. arms programs. However, as the delays, cost overruns and blatant moves by IAI to stamp "Made in Israel" on American-made Lavi avionics evolved, the Pentagon decided to terminate the program.
The U.S. Department of Defense therefore formally ceased sending money to Israel for the Lavi program in 1987, but only after American taxpayers had paid some $1.5 billion to fund the project. The interruption of cash flow effectively killed the program, but left Israel with two fully functional Lavi prototypes.
While the Lavi program was underway, China repeatedly initiated talks with U.S. government officials regarding purchase of the F-16. These requests always were turned down, largely because American defense officials feared China's possession of the F-16 could destabilize Beijing's relationships with its neighbors, specifically Taiwan, India, Russia, Japan, and the Philippines.
Unbeknownst to U.S. officials, however, at some point the Chinese also initiated talks with Israel. As a result, according to a declassified Air Force study obtained by the Washington Report, the Chinese version of the Lavi--which has been dubbed the
F-10 by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization--will be "built in large numbers" by the year 2003 "and will possess a radar-evading [read stealth] capability."
Currently, China's most sophisticated aircraft are domestically-produced copies of the Russian MiG-21 Fishbed fighter, a relatively slow, short-range day fighter which first saw service in 1956.
Morton Miller is a retired State Department intelligence analyst who formerly tracked sales to Beijing of other Israeli weapons, some of which also have involved illegal Israeli export of other sophisticated U.S. defense technology to China. He has told journalists that the close defense relationship between Israel and China dates back to the mid-1980s, and involves the transfer of "five billion dollars' worth" of U.S.-made computers, high-tech electronics and advanced manufacturing equipment used to create long-range missiles, nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction.
Ignoring these charges, the Israeli Ministry of Defense officially acknowledges that it is working with China to manufacture jointly an advanced fighter plane, but denies that any of the technology from the Lavi is used in the Chinese F-10. Nevertheless, IAI documents dating from 1985 credit the enormous role the Pentagon played in helping to build the Lavi, and acknowledge that "about 50 percent of the Lavi is built in the United States...The program is supported by the capabilities of no less than 120 American firms."
Pentagon sources revealed to the Washington Report that when U.S. Secretary of Defense William Perry confronted Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin with the allegations concerning transfer to China of U.S. stealth and other fighter aircraft technologies last year in Tel Aviv, Rabin promised to "resolve the issue." That was before Rabin's Nov. 4 assassination.
Requests to IAI by the Washington Report for further details on the Lavi technology transfer to China were stonewalled. "That's a story that's been going around for a number of years," said Lisa Gordon, assistant to the director of IAI's military aircraft office in Washington, DC. "We're just seeing it come around again," she said. "Beyond that, we aren't commenting on it."
The CIA, which for some time has been concerned about the increasingly close link between Israeli and Chinese defense industries, and the threat this alliance poses to world stability, has been similarly frustrated.
Former CIA director R. James Woolsey informed the U.S. Senate in late 1993 that he was "alarmed" by the military partnership between Tel Aviv and Beijing, and officially accused Israel of "illegally supplying China with classified defense technology from sources in the West."
Reading from a declassified CIA report while appearing before the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, Woolsey added: "We believe the Chinese seek from Israel advanced military technologies that U.S. and Western firms are unwilling to provide."
Woolsey revealed that Israel has been selling military technology to China for over a decade, and that the sales may amount to several billion dollars.
During subsequent testimony, Woolsey said the CIA is convinced China also is relying on its friends in Israel to assist in developing advanced engines for the next generation of Chinese combat vehicles. He said also that China will rely on Israeli expertise to create sophisticated airborne radar that employs super-secret technology that has been entrusted to Israel for another multibillion dollar joint project--production in Israel of the Arrow missile defense program which also has been funded largely by the United States.
"[These are] systems," concluded Woolsey in his testimony, "the Chinese would have difficulty producing on their own." Now it appears that, thanks to Israeli transfer of highly classified U.S. military technology, the Chinese have done just that, setting off alarm bells among China's neighbors, and America's allies, all around the rim of Asia. -
"Russian components, American components: they are all made in Taiwan", said a Russian cosmonaut in the "Armageddon" sci-fi flick with Bruce Willis. Today China may be lacking in the avionics and engine departments but nothing prevents it from buying everything it needs from Russia, France and other eager suppliers of advanced aerospace components. You need an engine? Russia offers its best fighter turbojets at a very reasonable price. You need a radar or avionics? Russia, France and Israel will be more than happy to supply top-of-the-line equipment.
That's goes for naval procurement too. The 2 Chinese Aegis look-alike stealth frigates must have been built with France assistance, very unlikely it's from Singapore. Singapore doesn't have the technolgy skills to build from ground up. It's acquires technology transfers from other countries and modified it to local use.
With regards to Hainan Island for Exercise Starlight, China did offered Singapore an alternate area from Taiwan for SG military training. Singapore did not take up the offer. -
this is new to me..didnt know France is an asian country?Originally posted by damienthedevil:"Russian components, American components: they are all made in Taiwan", said a Russian cosmonaut in the "Armageddon" sci-fi flick with Bruce Willis. Today China may be lacking in the avionics and engine departments but nothing prevents it from buying everything it needs from Russia, France and other eager suppliers of advanced aerospace components. You need an engine? Russia offers its best fighter turbojets at a very reasonable price. You need a radar or avionics? Russia, France and Israel will be more than happy to supply top-of-the-line equipment.
That's goes for naval procurement too. The 2 Chinese Aegis look-alike stealth frigates must have been built with France assistance, very unlikely it's from Singapore. Singapore doesn't have the technolgy skills to build from ground up. It's acquires technology transfers from other countries and modified it to local use.
With regards to Hainan Island for Exercise Starlight, China did offered Singapore an alternate area from Taiwan for SG military training. Singapore did not take up the offer. -
Theres nothing in the original article to suggest the 2 PLAN navy are built with Singapore's assistance. What the article said was that China has acquired "advanced shipbuilding technology" from an Asian country that was also friendly to Taiwan.Originally posted by damienthedevil:That's goes for naval procurement too. The 2 Chinese Aegis look-alike stealth frigates must have been built with France assistance, very unlikely it's from Singapore. Singapore doesn't have the technolgy skills to build from ground up.
The speculation here is which is the Asian country that supplied China the shipbuilding technology, not the source of information on the stealth frigate. Totally unrelated events. -
not many country in asia has advance ship building capability and is friendly to taiwan...
1.. singapore.
2.. south korea.
3.. japan.
4.. cant think of anyone else.
both japan and south korea has apprehension about the chinese rise in power since they are sleeping next to the dragon.
that leaves only singapore... but i think.. like viper said... its advance ship building technology.. NOT advance stealth technology. in fact... how could we be teaching china how to build stealth ships when we needed european nations to help us build our own stealth ships?
but... where buisness is concern... you will be surprised that those who transfer the technology to PRC could even include japan and south korea... buisnessman are like that one lah... they are only loyal to their profit margin... -
Stealth technology is not simply the radar absorbing paint alone - as so much publicity had been given to the USAF F117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit.
It has more to do in the manner the surface of a vessel is angled at the most optimum position to deflect the radar signals, and it should not be returning the deflected signal back to the source.
Sometime in 2002, it was published in the PIONEER magazine, an article of some returning scholars working in DSTA, who specialized in Electronics and Electrical Engineering, and were dedicated to unravel the mysteries of radar.
Singapore has the expertise within our DSTA and Singapore Technologies group to handle 'stealth technology', except that it was too much left to be a test of faith in the local expertise by getting them involved in such a vast multi-million dollar venture as was made in the New Frigates. -
i think before we jump into conclusions... we really must ask if that report is true or simple a rumor making to the papers.
clearly with PRC's wide economic fingers sticking all over the world and the large numbers of PRC scientist and researchers... cant they build a simple stealth ships by themselves either by local research or oversea spying?
i mean if the angle of the ships are crucial... just take some snap shot of the taiwan lafayette, the visby or other stealth ships on the market and do some calculation and experiments... and you might just end up have a ship that look like a stealth ship.. (whether really stealth or not only few people really knows). -
There are always many other considered possibilities of PRC Military Industry using their scientists to gather knowledge by way of reverse engineering, or using their spy agencies to plant agents to steal foreign technologies, or even buying up foreign businesses needed for their military industry.
There is also the other possibility of using the low labor costs to entice foreign high tech factories to manufacture their products in PRC; and gaining the technology transfer for the eventual military application.
Unfortunately, there are many limitation for PRC. Just as it had made tremendous progress in their aerospace industry, a large part of the high end products are still dependent on external supply - with most of the components and systems coming from Russia.
For any Singapore assistance to be possible, it will have to be a 100 percent Singapore developed system that do not require any clearance from US Legislations, which prevent re-export of US Made or Licensed Products to any list of restricted countries.
Any Singapore technologies transferred will certainly be considered to be non-threatening to our own military interests, and from the known Singapore Government Policy of Balancing the Powers that can affect our own survival, it will be quite likely that we can assist PRC in their need for high tech shipbuilding technologies.
These may include welding technologies, metallurgy, Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing, modern shipbuilding processes and project management, and any other similar kind of non-lethal industrial assistance.
Certainly, PRC will also have their own researches into high technologies; and any assistance from Singapore in their need for high tech systems, will also enable us to gain some insight as to the status of such military related sciences in the PRC.
Any non-lethal assistance from Singapore, may produce end product of naval warfare platforms that may eventually threaten the region if China is to launch an attack to recover Taiwan.
This can only be seen as economic suicide for PRC and the entire East and S.E. Asian regions.
However, on balance, and taken from the longer term view, it will benefit Singapore more to assist PRC in its present needs. -
being small mebbe we hope to become their favorite pet and be given opportunity in leaner times.Originally posted by tankee1981:The assumtion that Singapore is that asian country is not totally impossible. For the past few years,Singapore relationship with PRC is getting better and better,it even reach a point where we even considered moving our Ex Starlight to Hainan Island. This is totally unthinkable in the 80's and even early 90's. If you have been noticing the shipbuilding developments of PRC,they have come out with frigates that resembled our new ones! I am just curious about what we stand to gain if there is such and aillance.
Seems like the whole world is gently pushing taiwan into the arms of chinese.
btw the radar design for their ageis frigate is gleaned from russian & american missle technology.
American technology came from a mid-east country also friendly with taiwan in the form of a PARTIOT PAC1/2 missle.