Malaysian soldiers:comrades-in-arms or future enemies?
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I will become an NSF next year,training hard to defend my nation.We have always trained with Malaysia in mind as our enemy.We could possibly fight against their soldiers,fellow warriors.
I ran across this on the Net and I decided to modify it a bit.It is called Soldier's Lament.Do you think about the enemy you could face in a war?
In a war with them,we would probably thrash them in sea and air but land would be a different matter.There would be heavy losses on both sides with Malaysia having an advantage in strategic depth and quality of manpower.Anyway,here gos the thing,modified to fit our situation in event of war with malaysia.
Nobody cares enough to count!
Do Malaysian soldiers have families, mothers, wives and children ?
Do Malaysian soldiers bleed?
Do Malaysian soldiers feel pain, loyalty and love?
Do Malaysia's soldiers care less about their country than soldiers in the SAF?
Do Malaysia's soldiers swear an oath to protect and serve their country?
Do Malaysian Children love their fathers less because they serve in their countries army?
Do an Malaysian soldiers wife's tears mean less than those of an SAF military wife if her husband died?
Do Malaysian soldiers pray to the Supreme Being as their blood gushes into the ancient ground of their forefathers?
Do Malaysian soldiers stand defiant before the mightiest war machine in South East Asia?
Do you care less for life because it exists beyond your shores?
Do you listen as others speak of Malaysia's soldiers as if they were mere animals, worthy of nothing other than slaughter?
Do you know how you destroy your own soul by devaluing the humanity of others?
Do you care that our nation could be brutally destroying thousand of humans who are acting honorably in the defense of their country?
If God exists do you assume he values Malaysian soldiers less than he cherishes you?
Do you pray for Malaysia's soldiers ?
or would that be treason against Singapore?
think about this if we ever fight a war. -
nice..
never thought of it this way
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i dont bother myself with all these unneccesary and worthless thought... in war.
to me... the most important fact i need to keep in mind and remember at all time is... "STAY ALIVE"
beware of your enemy.. for he comes not to sing and dance with you... but to take the last breath from your lung and still your heart.
make no mistake... for all the compassion you have for your enemy.. he would have NON for you. -
You know, you sound just like those Jehova's Witnesses or whatever shit, expecting to live in a peace that's protected by the lives of others...Originally posted by Sardaukar:I will become an NSF next year,training hard to defend my nation.We have always trained with Malaysia in mind as our enemy.We could possibly fight against their soldiers,fellow warriors.
I ran across this on the Net and I decided to modify it a bit.It is called Soldier's Lament.Do you think about the enemy you could face in a war?
In a war with them,we would probably thrash them in sea and air but land would be a different matter.There would be heavy losses on both sides with Malaysia having an advantage in strategic depth and quality of manpower.Anyway,here gos the thing,modified to fit our situation in event of war with malaysia.
Nobody cares enough to count!
Do Malaysian soldiers have families, mothers, wives and children ?
Do Malaysian soldiers bleed?
Do Malaysian soldiers feel pain, loyalty and love?
Do Malaysia's soldiers care less about their country than soldiers in the SAF?
Do Malaysia's soldiers swear an oath to protect and serve their country?
Do Malaysian Children love their fathers less because they serve in their countries army?
Do an Malaysian soldiers wife's tears mean less than those of an SAF military wife if her husband died?
Do Malaysian soldiers pray to the Supreme Being as their blood gushes into the ancient ground of their forefathers?
Do Malaysian soldiers stand defiant before the mightiest war machine in South East Asia?
Do you care less for life because it exists beyond your shores?
Do you listen as others speak of Malaysia's soldiers as if they were mere animals, worthy of nothing other than slaughter?
Do you know how you destroy your own soul by devaluing the humanity of others?
Do you care that our nation could be brutally destroying thousand of humans who are acting honorably in the defense of their country?
If God exists do you assume he values Malaysian soldiers less than he cherishes you?
Do you pray for Malaysia's soldiers ?
or would that be treason against Singapore?
think about this if we ever fight a war.
I dont give a shit about their lives anymore if they point their barrel at me, cause that's when they obviously do not regard my well-being as important, ya know? As for soul, I choose life over soul or whatever. -
That soldier's lament IMO does not apply to us....cos we are NOT an expeditionary force and we dun go around jioing other countries to fight....we are only train to defend (although pre-emptively) our nation...
to counter that version... here's another version:
Do they care less for life because it exists beyond their shores?
Do they listen as others speak of us soldiers as if we were mere animals, worthy of nothing other than slaughter?
Do they know how they destroy their own soul by devaluing the humanity of others?
Do they care that their nation could be brutally destroying thousand of humans who are acting honorably in the defense of our country?
If God exists do they assume he values Singaporean soldiers less than he cherishes them?
Do they pray for Singaporean soldiers ?
Do we have families, mothers, wives and children ?
Do we bleed?
Do we feel pain, loyalty and love?
Do we care less about our country than soldiers in the MAF?
Did we swear an oath to protect and serve our country?
Do our Childrens love us less because we serve in our army?
Do an our wife's tears mean less than those of an MAF military wife if her husband died?
Do we pray to the Supreme Being as our blood gushes into the grounds of our forefathers?
Do we stand defiant before the bigger, more manpower, fiercer army in this reqion?
Do we deserve to die in their hands?
think about this if we are force into a war defending our nation.
Firstly.....I would like to say that this is not meant to flame or blame our neighbour Malaysia.
Frankly and honestly speakly, I would very much and rather want malaysian soldiers as my comrades-in-arms...fighting a common aggressor (eg: terrorist, another bigger nation bullying both of us)
then to have them being my enemy....
Better to have another friend than enemy right? -
Originally posted by Silenthunter:
Very well said.
Frankly and honestly speakly, I would very much and rather want malaysian soldiers as my comrades-in-arms...fighting a common aggressor (eg: terrorist, another bigger nation bullying both of us)
then to have them being my enemy....
Better to have another friend than enemy right?
Singapore has a majority of our population being Chinese, we will find a similar mix of people in the Malays, Indians, Eurasians.
Likewise, Malaysia also has the same mix of people, and the Citizens of Singapore and Malaysia will have families across both sides of the border.
The danger of enmity will only arise when some bigot assume power, and decide to mobilise and instigate the Citizens to be hostil towards each other.
Singapore will need to be vigilant of such persons on our side of the border, as well as keep tabs of events and Malaysian personalities that shape political opinions, and lead the Citizens. -
prefer them to be allies... have cousins in their army... and i'm gonna enlist soon... won't wanna face each other in combat...
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Sardaukar,
u have a point, but in wartime, its not hard to de-humanise the enemy and to dis-regard all the considerations u brought up.
out in the field, there's really no room for an overly-developed sense of morality... u watched band of brothers recently? the second episode i think... when the american soldier bayonets his platoon mate cos he thought it was the enemy...
thats exactly the kind of pressure soldiers face in the field. u're tired, cold, wet and miserable. very scared. anything that moves makes u jump and u'ld rather shoot first and ask questions later. a joke during the gulf war was that the most dangerous fire was friendly fire cos its so much more accurate... and why's that so if soldiers are indeed, thinking clearly out field? cos they aren't... things are simply moveing too damn fast.
besides, you would've also been instructed that everything in front of you is the enemy... and its a perfectly logical reasoning if u're advancing into hostile territory. if u don't react first, u'll be killed. the other guy would certainly not give a second thought to pumping u full of copper or lead.
so in the field, u're not killing the enemy to protect your country, your're not killing somebody else's son, husband or father. u're neutralising a threat to u and your fellow soldiers.
and because things moves so FAST out field, u have no time for a morality debate. in that context, it is a much greater sin if u let your men, or your comrades down by not taking out the enemy first.
once the first shot rings out, your training and your instincts takes over... and thats not an exaggeration... nothing else matters. its just u, your weapon, and everything else that lays before u is a target.
if anyone wants to be pure and not kill, they should do it in their own time in the confines of a monastry. out in the field, u have no business thinking that way because lives are at stake. not just yours, but many others as well. -
any leader who resorts to war to resolve international disputes should be marked for death. i'd rather he die than thousands under him. no matter if he's from my country or what. i fight for no one but my loved ones. will not risk my life for anyone else's cause that's not pro-peace.
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War is war regardless of language, religion and race.
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Actually, Sardaukar's questions make a lot of sense. Without breaking OSA, I can say that I was once given a very good reason for stopping and thinking of those questions for a few days. If Sardaukar gets his wish for posting, he may well have that reason too.
At the end, there was only one question that mattered: is the guy who will be in my sights the instrument of a policy that will adversely affect the lives of my life and the lives of my family?
I'm glad to say I never had to fire a shot in anger, but if I did, I know I'd just ask myself that question. -
Silenthunter, I know what you mean, but that may get a bit blurred when you consider that we will need to gain defensive depth.Originally posted by Silenthunter:we are NOT an expeditionary force -
Remember Singapore's official foreign policy stance:
Singapore has NO ENEMIES -- to name an enemy is to make an enemy. Singapore is willing to be friends with any nation willing to be friends with her. Singapore will stand by friends who have stood by her in times of need.
In case it is not clear, Malaysia is NOT an enemy of Singapore. We do NOT train to invade Malaysia or kill Malaysians. If they wish to be our enemies, we are prepared to defend ourselves, the same with any other nation. However, if they wish to be our friends and show their sincerity, we are also prepared to be friends with them.
Hopefully with the change of leadership in Malaysia, some of the old bad blood has gone away. I would definitely prefer the Malaysians to be our comrades-in-arms, especially since there are many threats which encompass both countries, such as terrorism and (in the long term) China and perhaps even the US. I think they are good people and we have much in common. -
yup I was about to address the "Malaysia is our Enemy" issue...Originally posted by dkhoo:Remember Singapore's official foreign policy stance:
Singapore has NO ENEMIES -- to name an enemy is to make an enemy. Singapore is willing to be friends with any nation willing to be friends with her. Singapore will stand by friends who have stood by her in times of need.
In case it is not clear, Malaysia is NOT an enemy of Singapore. We do NOT train to invade Malaysia or kill Malaysians. If they wish to be our enemies, we are prepared to defend ourselves, the same with any other nation. However, if they wish to be our friends and show their sincerity, we are also prepared to be friends with them.
Hopefully with the change of leadership in Malaysia, some of the old bad blood has gone away. I would definitely prefer the Malaysians to be our comrades-in-arms, especially since there are many threats which encompass both countries, such as terrorism and (in the long term) China and perhaps even the US. I think they are good people and we have much in common.
I dun remember anything about "Malaysia" is my 2.5 yrs stint in SAF...... the only "enemies" I ever heard of is "Redland", "Blueland", "Purpleland" and our ally "Orangeland" and the neutual country "Greenland".....
So fellow malaysian readers, relac lah.....
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
not to insult your mental capacity, but in the heat and intensity of a battle, are u sure u got time to ask yourself ANY questions beyond "shall i fire or not?"
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I'm glad to say I never had to fire a shot in anger, but if I did, I know I'd just ask myself that question.
there are different levels to the issues that are being brought up... to the policy-maker and the decision-makers, these are no doubt, valid and important questions. it shows that they are aware of the nuances and gravity of the situation and the consequences of their decisions.
but i'll be damned pissed if my comrade in arm is sprouting such crap out in the field and especially if its hampering his effectiveness and endangering lives.
i also don't think that they have the time to think about anything once the first shot rings out. -
*pengs*Originally posted by Silenthunter:yup I was about to address the "Malaysia is our Enemy" issue...
I dun remember anything about "Malaysia" is my 2.5 yrs stint in SAF...... the only "enemies" I ever heard of is "Redland", "Blueland", "Purpleland" and our ally "Orangeland" and the neutual country "Greenland".....
So fellow malaysian readers, relac lah..... -
Agreed, CX. Just to clarify, I was talking about having these thoughts while waiting for THE call to be made to the COS office. Once the shooting starts, hell, it's a free-for-all and it's kill or be killed. However, during the prep, when you know it's not an exercise, it does give you a reason to do a bit of soul-searching.Originally posted by CX:not to insult your mental capacity, but in the heat and intensity of a battle, are u sure u got time to ask yourself ANY questions beyond "shall i fire or not?"
there are different levels to the issues that are being brought up... to the policy-maker and the decision-makers, these are no doubt, valid and important questions. it shows that they are aware of the nuances and gravity of the situation and the consequences of their decisions.
but i'll be damned pissed if my comrade in arm is sprouting such crap out in the field and especially if its hampering his effectiveness and endangering lives.
i also don't think that they have the time to think about anything once the first shot rings out.
At the end of the day, the military is but an instrument of policy. One would have to hope that the policy makers have the insight to ask themselves ther right questions and use diplomacy until absolutely all options have been exhausted. -
I posted it because I just came across it and it forced me to think about what could have happened in a war between us and Malaysia which has nearly happened before.
I am half-Malaysian.My dad migrated here from Malaysia so I have relatives in Malaysia.I am full Singaporean throughout though.If forced to defend my country,I can without a doubt say that I would shoot any fucker who was trying to kill me or my squad members.I would shoot first and ask questions later.Any soldier wil do this under high-stress environment.It is a fact that all of us have to accept.
In reality,I would not care much,in war I would just kill.I would kill in revenge for dead comrades,dead people of Singapore.
btw,is the NSF training standards lower nowadays?I want to get the tough training,but I hear that only the Regulars in Guards and Commandoes get the extended training.Basically,I want to get into the tough shit training of the elite units like Guards or Commandoes or SOC or STAR and overcome it.I see it as a challenge to prove to yourself your own worth.You gain more self-respect and you gain respect of others as well. -
Originally posted by Sardaukar:
most pple say that until they see and feel for themselves what really tough training means... then they start to keng and twang and siam...
btw,is the NSF training standards lower nowadays?I want to get the tough training,but I hear that only the Regulars in Guards and Commandoes get the extended training.Basically,I want to get into the tough shit training of the elite units like Guards or Commandoes or SOC or STAR and overcome it.I see it as a challenge to prove to yourself your own worth.You gain more self-respect and you gain respect of others as well.
its commendable that u desire to try your best and test your physical/mental limits. but bear in mind that every man is important... not just the muscle-heads and elites.
and believe me... field endurance has little to do with physical fitness... u can be fit like rambo but it doesn't mean that u can last longer out field than anybody else with biceps smaller than yours. -
The training is as tough as you want it to be. If you want to get into the Commandos, Guards or other elite units and be pushed to your mental and physical limits, just ask. Tell the MO at CMPB when you go for medical classification and your PC in BMT. If you have what it takes, the SAF will definitely oblige.
I would not say that the training today is "less" than in the past. The recruit of today is physically weaker and less used to hardship than the recruit of the past, but he learns faster and is better disciplined. The SAF has adapted. The recruit of today would probably collapse if subjected to the tender graces of the Israeli advisors of the past. The recruit of the 1960s would be lost with all the technology and procedure he needs to learn today, and be a headache for his commanders. The training is just as tough, just tough in a different way. Different formations and vocations are also very different in terms of what they expect from the soldier. -
well if they whack first then i guess it's no mercy.
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Agreed. Being the big boy doesn't guarantee that you'll make it - I've seen guys built like an ox drop five klicks into a mission, while the skinny little guys just keep going. I've also seen national junior bodybuilding competitors drop to their knees and bawl like babies during morning runs. One of the guys in my section weighed 46kg, and he carried 48kg on LRRP missions, and was machine gunner on assault missions. Watching the guy do a clean fatigue jump was always entertaining for my company - we would be on the ground and he would be still going like a yoyo with every updraft.Originally posted by CX:and believe me... field endurance has little to do with physical fitness... u can be fit like rambo but it doesn't mean that u can last longer out field than anybody else with biceps smaller than yours. Still, there was no doubt about Eddie's toughness.
A good part of it is in your head, and the rest is how you prepare and adapt yourself for times when you have to be on the go through all kinds of weather for 5 days, with the rare 15 minute catnap during resupply breaks. With the possible exception of the duration, I believe this applies for all combat arms.
At the end of the day, what makes all the difference is your ability to keep your head under all circumstances. I'm sure a lot of us will be familiar with the question, "What, shack cannot think, right?". -
give a call to the army recruitment centre at cmpb and volunteer yourself to be enlisted into commando for your NS.Originally posted by Sardaukar:btw,is the NSF training standards lower nowadays?I want to get the tough training,but I hear that only the Regulars in Guards and Commandoes get the extended training.Basically,I want to get into the tough shit training of the elite units like Guards or Commandoes or SOC or STAR and overcome it.I see it as a challenge to prove to yourself your own worth.You gain more self-respect and you gain respect of others as well. -
nismo,can I seriously do that.I'm studying overseas right now and am coming back next year for enlistment into NS.Can I seriously do that?
You mean there is an official channel by which I can get that posting to elite units?
I really dun want to be joked aroundwith guys.For me this is a serious issue.I am really eager to get into an elite unit.I really want to know how I can enlist into those like Guards.
Guard would be my first choice cos I have heard from their reputation of their toughness from many guys who ORDed here in Sydney.Commandoes I have heard that the NSF comms. are crap but the regulars a bit insane,tougher than hell.The NDU,enough said man,they deserve the utmost respect in my uneducated opinion.SOF,secretive and dun know about them but heard they are like devils in combat.Please educate me. -
hey friend, i don't think mindef will allocate vocation according to your personal preferences one lah.. unless you planning to sign on lah.
anyway, you really must think carefully and ask yourself if you can live with that kind of regimental life and fight fight kill kill life leh. you said you don't want to be make fun of by your other friends seems like a dangerous mindset if that's what motivates you to select a elite combat vocation leh... because when the going gets tough, your mind will lose it... but if you can get pass their rigourous selection, then i guess you should survive it there.
good luck and cheers to you man...