Malaysian soldiers:comrades-in-arms or future enemies?
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Hmm - personally I don't know of any such volunteering system - despite my best efforts, I got selected. Maybe things have changed over the years. Some of the guys from my batch are pretty senior (I've just heard that one of our boys is slated to become the new CO), so I'll ask about it.
Again, maybe you're right and Commandos have gotten softer over the years (although I'd prefer it if you wouldn't use the word "crap" ), but I'd be leery of any claimed differences between the toughness of Guards and Commandos. Often, Commando officers are posted over to Guards units for their OC and CO tours, so there's a lot of crossing-over of cultures, and there would be similarities in standards.
By the way, SOF is an all-regular unit. The others you mentioned take NSF soldiers.
I'd have to agree very strongly with 12qwaszx here - your current mindset is pretty dangerous. Certainly in the battalion, and knowing my mates in SOF, the ones who made it did not think that way. Instead, we all focussed on being professional: it's a job that not everybody can do, and we take pride in doing things the best we can. Simple as that.
No offence, but I certainly wouldn't want to go on a mission with someone who had the mindset you've portrayed - that kind of guy is the type who gets his mates killed.
From a civilian point of view, if you want to see the right mindset, watch the last episode of Band of Brothers, "We Stand Alone Together: The Men of Easy Company". It's a documentary containing interviews with men of the 101st Airborne Division in WW2. Listen to what these men have to say and pay attention to what they focus upon - it's not how tough you are, but how you stand by your mates. All the best! -
my friend inside asked around for me, and later refered me to them.Originally posted by Sardaukar:nismo,can I seriously do that.I'm studying overseas right now and am coming back next year for enlistment into NS.Can I seriously do that?
You mean there is an official channel by which I can get that posting to elite units?
you'll still have to pass the requirements though. right now i'm still training myself physically, still not able to do a single pull up
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I guess my mindset may be lacking.please point out any deficincies in my posts that indicate deficiencies in my mindset.
I am dead set on getting into the elite units,and not just to gain respect from others or to stop people "teasing" me as one poster put it.I am determined to get into the elite units and enlist as a regular,probably after getting a degree.
I believe I have something of what it takes to get through the harsh training and all the s-h-i-t that the system will probably put me through.I want to train to fight for my country and people.To this end,no matter how odd my request is,tell me what mindset is required.Minds can change.Determintaion may or may not win through.There is always hope. -
i'm neither from gds nor from cdo, but i think the single most important thing that can get you through is "what do you want to get out of the experience" loh... if you are very comfortable with military life and like all things military, i think your mindset should be okay lah. oh yeah, you must like living with nature too.. hehehe....
otherwise, if you are signing on for the prestige, recognition or money, then you better don't sign on, coz' you'll suffer down the road.
that's my honest opinion lah.
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Like Sardaukar, i also would very much like to be part of an elite unit. Its heartening to hear from people like him, because i've seen many people complaining wanting to 'geng' as they call it to get a easier vocation no matter what. Although i'm not yet gone through my ns and don't know what exactly it feels like in military life. But i doubt i can enter an elite unit like commando and stuff...poor eyesight and fitness.
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more than that... no need super-human feats to prove a point...Originally posted by Gedanken:Agreed. Being the big boy doesn't guarantee that you'll make it - I've seen guys built like an ox drop five klicks into a mission, while the skinny little guys just keep going.
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At the end of the day, what makes all the difference is your ability to keep your head under all circumstances. I'm sure a lot of us will be familiar with the question, "What, shack cannot think, right?".
how long can anyone last without a bath, wearing the same set of no.4, and stay out in the field without either getting a rash, a fungal infection or going crazy? i'm not even gonna ask how long they can stay combat effective... a seemingly simple thing like foot-rot can be a real killer (and a chargeable offence) u know...
its just plain NOT FUN and its not something that has anything to do with physical fitness. the macho man that thinks his physical fitness makes him invincible will be really crushed when he realises that the itch from foot-rot or fungal infection can bring him to his knees and deprive him of a date for a very long time...
its mostly about having the discipline to take care of your body under the most trying circumstances so u don't fall sick. and of course, keeping your spirits up like u mentioned. -
[quote]Originally posted by Sardaukar:
problem number one: if u don't fit the mould, don't force it. its not just u being right for them. what makes u think that they're right for you?
I guess my mindset may be lacking.please point out any deficincies in my posts that indicate deficiencies in my mindset.I am dead set on getting into the elite units,and not just to gain respect from others or to stop people "teasing" me as one poster put it.I am determined to get into the elite units and enlist as a regular,probably after getting a degree.
problem number two: if u are dead set to serve, why does it have to be in an elite unit? they don't accept u how? are u gonna just give up? or are u gonna keep working your best at what u are assigned to do for your NSF years?
cos if u're gonna just crash, then u better not sign. we have enough farked up officers who signed for selfish, egoistical reasons already. and its a career... shit happens. have u thought of that? and i'm not talking about death and disability... i'm talking about advancement and the simple fact that getting it isn't always straight forward...I believe I have something of what it takes to get through the harsh training and all the s-h-i-t that the system will probably put me through.I want to train to fight for my country and people.To this end,no matter how odd my request is,tell me what mindset is required.Minds can change.Determintaion may or may not win through.There is always hope.
problem three: tarheads and war-hogs need not apply. the military is not some samurai warrior caste.
Problem four: mindsets can change? does mindef care about that when they recruit? forget it... if u ain't got it, don't change, don't fake it. it won't work. just be honest when u apply and go for interview.
if u lie and get it, u won't like it. many have tried and found it out the hard way.
i don't say that u're not right for it, or that u shouldn't apply, but that u must keep your options and your mind open.
u sound like u already have many fixed views about what u think u're getting into and many here are trying to tell u that u're out of line. its not like that. its ultimately a VERY humbling experience...
best option? just go in, be yourself, ask questions during recruitment talks to make sure that its right for u. clear all your doubts. think critically. don't decide until u have all the info. -
Sardaukar, you can express your willingness to join an elite unit during evaluations. This does not guarantee that you'll get in, but it improves your chances greatly. There are still psychological, physical and character evaluations that you need to pass, along with manpower requirements. However, if you MUST be in an elite unit, you should simply sign on as a regular in the unit you want. If you pass selection you will automatically be there.
Before you do that, however, you need to ask yourself several things, as others in this thread have said. Life in these units is TOUGH. Tough in the Army means a whole different thing from tough in civilian life. It is not glamorous once you are on the inside. It is not at all like what you see on TV or the movies. Make sure you know what you are getting yourself into before jumping headfirst into it. Do a bit of NS first, then decide.
Mindset wise, you need to ask yourself WHY you want to join these units. If you need to join to validate yourself, to give yourself something to be proud of, you are already in trouble. Nothing can make you proud of yourself. You seem so boyishly enthusiastic that I am a bit worried. The best soldiers are usually the reluctant ones. I will leave it up to actual Guards and Commandos (like Gedanken) to tell you what constitutes a good mindset for someone in their units. -
Um,I guess dkhoo hit the right spot.I'd better do some serious soul searching about that.I am enthusiastic about it,you are right there.Maybe overenthusiastic.
I think I'll stop posting in this forum for a while until I can figure out what I really want out of a military life. -
Geez, Sardaukar, how are you going to be a Commando if you retreat so easily? Stick around and test your ideas out, and don't get too discouraged if someone offers a different opinion.
Give me a while and I'll see what I can think of to write about the right mindset. -
1) Humbleness. If you are doing it to satisfy your ego, you are in the wrong place.Originally posted by dkhoo:Mindset wise, you need to ask yourself WHY you want to join these units. If you need to join to validate yourself, to give yourself something to be proud of, you are already in trouble. Nothing can make you proud of yourself. You seem so boyishly enthusiastic that I am a bit worried. The best soldiers are usually the reluctant ones. I will leave it up to actual Guards and Commandos (like Gedanken) to tell you what constitutes a good mindset for someone in their units.
2) A team player.
3) A non-quitter to an extent.
4) A person who can have good fun when its time for it and can get down to serious business when work needs to be done.
5) A sense of humor will be a plus
6) Optimism. -
I have finished my soul searching and will say this.I will fight for my country.I wish to join the elite units for the prestige partly.I feel no shame in admitting this.I wish to serve my country as something morer than a mere infantry soldier,though that is a respectable vocation.That is my ambition
As for ego,unashamedly,yes,I join partly for ego.I will serve my country in whatever capacity if I am posted even to a non elite position.though preferably a combat vocation.I will fight beside my comrades and give the mission first priority over my life.If it is for the greater good of the nation,then yes,our lives are secondary to all other objectives.A mission first,all else is secondary.
As for pride,I have pride in what I feel is my heritage as a Singaporean and as a Chindian.I just wish to do my duty.I am if anything,determined to go through with the tough training,as I am determined to show people what Singaporeans are capable of,even the weaket of us.For if you serve in the SAF,I feel you should take pride in what you do.You are protecting your society,your people.For some,you are given a chance to redeem yourself and contribute to the greater good of Singapore.As a soldier,you are representing yourself to the world as a defender of your nation.In these turbulent times,soldiers are needed more than ever and it saddens me to see people trying to skive off and just cruise through their service.Previous generations before us have gone through it to defend us.If not for them,we would not have the security that we have now.We owe it to them,to our descendants,to our future generations,our families,to serve in an honourable institution that is not perfect but I feel does its best to do its duty,to defend a society that takes it for granted.
I also wish for a return to the training standards of the 60's or 70's,well,to match the israeli's in their toughness for training.Safety is all very well and good,but sometimes accidents happen and they cannot be avoided all the time.We need mentally and physically tough soldiers,disciplined and intelligent,who can hang with the best of them.I mean come on,air-con barracks?Give me a simple tent.Throw us into tough training and we will pull through,Singgaporean men must either adapt or show their weakness to their comrades.
At the moment,for most NSF's it seems to be just a game,but living in our part of the world,it is highly turbulent.To the west,Aceh is embroiled in war.To the north,rebellious Muslims are being cleansed by the Thais.To the west,Mindanao seeks independence frm Manila.The JI have sought to bomb us,Muslim traitor residents of Singapore who would kill their own people to achieve their aims.Their loyalty should be to their country,NOT Islam.The Koran states that you must put your country above your religion.And of course,there are those threats that are covert and won't be revealed,to avoid panic.We should throw the TSR to the air and forge new training standards that equal those of the Israelis,to have tougher PT and harder living conditions in the barracks,to conditions ourselves.We must train as we would fight.
I explicitly state that only some extremist Muslims are responsible.From my view,most Malays are loyal to Singapore and would make good soldiers.It is in their heritage.I just feel that the JI terrorists who are Singaporean should be charged with treason and left to contemplate their deeds,the betrayal of their homeland,before being shot through the head.Traitors like them must pay the highest price. -
Don't think Infantry not siong leh.... all the people in Infantry can go Guards too, but there are only 3 Gds battalions... or is it 2 now? and someone have to be Infantry mah. hehehe... actually, no shame in any vocations as long as you don't chao keng loh.
anyway, from what you have said, i think its okay that you want to satisfy some ego on your part lah. when i was in ns, i was hoping to be posted to gds too, coz i like rappeling, but ended in Infantry and i don't mind it at all.
you mentioned that we must push the limits of training to get better quality soldiers, like give them tents instead of air-con bunks... if you ask me ah, nothing beats the nice warm bed waiting for you after an exercise.. good for morale lah i think. Last time got 1 guards bn have air con bunks too, i think dippe barracks from what the other forumites said before. If you trained hard, you deserved some welfare too loh.
good luck lah hoh, and maybe you can re-evaluate your options when you are doing BMT loh. If you are still up for military life, then go for it.
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Originally posted by Sardaukar:
tough training and welfare to soldiers are not contradictory.
I also wish for a return to the training standards of the 60's or 70's,well,to match the israeli's in their toughness for training.Safety is all very well and good,but sometimes accidents happen and they cannot be avoided all the time.We need mentally and physically tough soldiers,disciplined and intelligent,who can hang with the best of them.I mean come on,air-con barracks?Give me a simple tent.Throw us into tough training and we will pull through,Singgaporean men must either adapt or show their weakness to their comrades.
military training has moved on beyond the purely physical. like i said before, whats the use of doing chin-ups and pumping iron when it doesn't contribute to field endurance? u can't fight microbes that way man...
and what contributes to field endurance? attentive leadership and good habits... making sure that u and the men have time to take care of their bodies so they don't fall sick.
frankly, my problem with the air con bunk is rather different... sinus and smell
its very smelly to have an air con bunk as ventilation isn't that good... and its actually unhealthy if u go in sweating like a hog. also, for pple like me, go in and sleep in air-con, next day can report sick liao... my sinus will just destroy me.
no need to prove a point my sleeping in tents one... and we do get tents when we go overseas... one of the training areas got no bunks...At the moment,for most NSF's it seems to be just a game,but living in our part of the world,it is highly turbulent....
very twisted threat assessment... as far as i can see, only JI is the likely suspect... not helpful to carry around this sorta "seige mentality". we do our best, but no need to feel targeted or victimised...I explicitly state that only some extremist Muslims are responsible.From my view,most Malays are loyal to Singapore and would make good soldiers.It is in their heritage.I just feel that the JI terrorists who are Singaporean should be charged with treason and left to contemplate their deeds,the betrayal of their homeland,before being shot through the head.Traitors like them must pay the highest price.
i'm tempted to agree with this point, except that does it help to give those maniacs a matyr? the "highest price" for them is to fade into oblivion. -
Erm, OK.
I'm going to ascribe this to a matter of expression, but this talk about shooting people in the head and throwing TSR into the air really does worry me a bit - it's all very trigger-happy. The last thing I'd want to do is go on a mission with someone like that - either he'll get me killed or we'll have a repeat of My Lai.
At the end of the day, it's a job. Certainly it's an honourable job, and certainly it needs to be done right, but you will not be encouraged to take too high a level of view, because in the big picture, you are simply the instrument of government policy.
All you really need to do is focus on doing the job right. Regimentation was certainly not a major part of the Commando mentality when I was there, and we that probably made a major contribution to our reputation as being poorly disciplined. We took breaks whenever we had a chance, but when it came time to switch on, we switched on all the way.
Our second OC went on to become Force commander for SOF, and his understanding with us was that he would treat us as professionals as long as we made sure we got the job done, and he turned our company into a highly efficient machine - we turned out the best platoon of what was the best combat unit for that year. Some time after he returned to SOF, we got a company 2i/c who converted from Armour, and man, was he ever a boy scout with regimentation. It turned out to be a disaster - he brought along his bullsh*t-baffles-brains approach, and of course the boys didn't appreciate it - the company's efficiency went all the way downhill because we had too much bullsh*t to take care of. Hell, even the CO didn't like the guy. Eventually, though, he learned to shut up and stop with the jingoistic chickensh*t nonsense, and the company ran fine after that.
There was another guy in my platoon, an old schoolmate of mine, who had a similar mentality as well, and he was so caught up in it that nobody could work with him. He made it through to get the beret, but when we went operational, he was relegated to rear-echelon tasks.
The worrisome thing, Sardaukar, is that what you've written sounds a lot like these two guys. Remember, it's all about the job, being professional about it and making sure that when the time comes, you can do it right. Leave the rest of it at the door.
Ego? Of course there's ego involved - I doubt that the SAF ever had a man who put on a red beret and was completely unaffected by it. -
peace man... the only solution to ur worries
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anybody who threatens my life is my enemy. a government who sends me out to die in war for any reason that cannot otherwise be resolved diplomatically, is my enemy.
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.... actually, no shame in any vocations as long as you don't chao keng loh.
True to that, If everyone join Elite forces siao liao..who is gonna to operate tanks,signal,bridging equipment? Every unit have their specialty. Ask ur sellf during BMT if you can take it, Wat is said and the actual thing may change ur mindset.
Hell u may not even like the Army during the BMT. Advertisment and the actual training does differs alot and guys on this forum can attest to that. U would swear and curse at that like all of us did during the initial stage
Yes do watch the Band Of Brotherhood, the 1st episode is good as some of those who sigh up turns out to be the S#$%^ Lt. Sobel. I think SAF shld be aware of that. [/quote][/i] -
Originally posted by boy in blues:
Agreed, but it gets a bit tricky when you've already sworn allegiance to said government.
a government who sends me out to die in war for any reason that cannot otherwise be resolved diplomatically, is my enemy. [/b]
Take note, Sardaukar - this is the kind of thing that you have to look out for when considering a career in the armed forces. A friend of mine who was a Green Beret was about to retire after 20 years' service - he had seen the tail end of Vietnam and everything since. I asked him what he was going to do after he retired, and he said, "If I had a choice, I'd pack my family up and move to the mountains - it's all f*cked". I think that says it all, coming from a guy whose patriotism could not be questioned. -
A lot of stuff to consider,a lot of ideas abt the right mindset floating abt.Say,out of curiosity,does religion determine where you are posted during NS?
And another thing man.Before I go in,I already hear a lot about these ghost stories in NS man.A lot are bullshit,a lot are legends or something or other,maybe a few are true.Can someone confirm at least some stories.I have already heard about Tekong.
And I also hear that the Commando camp is damn haunted by pontianaks or something or hter lah.
Can anyone give me the facts? -
Years of patrolling both the old and new camps, and I never saw a ghost. There are a lot of rumours around, though.Originally posted by Sardaukar:A lot of stuff to consider,a lot of ideas abt the right mindset floating abt.Say,out of curiosity,does religion determine where you are posted during NS?
And another thing man.Before I go in,I already hear a lot about these ghost stories in NS man.A lot are bullshit,a lot are legends or something or other,maybe a few are true.Can someone confirm at least some stories.I have already heard about Tekong.
And I also hear that the Commando camp is damn haunted by pontianaks or something or hter lah.
Can anyone give me the facts?
I'm not sure about the religion thing - when I enlisted, we had 4 Malay, 8 Indian and 2 Eurasian recruits, out of a complement of 198. Things may have changed since.
Sarkaudar, like I said, watch Band of Brothers end-to-end, including the final documentary, and then read through this thread again - I think it might make more sense then. -
These are some happenings in my ex company line.Originally posted by Sardaukar:A lot of stuff to consider,a lot of ideas abt the right mindset floating abt.Say,out of curiosity,does religion determine where you are posted during NS?
And another thing man.Before I go in,I already hear a lot about these ghost stories in NS man.A lot are bullshit,a lot are legends or something or other,maybe a few are true.Can someone confirm at least some stories.I have already heard about Tekong.
And I also hear that the Commando camp is damn haunted by pontianaks or something or hter lah.
Can anyone give me the facts?
1) Two friends of mine sleeping in the same double decker bed. They were gambling the night before and kept losing. Frustrated they went to sleep. One of them,the one sleeping below felt very cold at night. Woke up, put on long 4 cover blanket from head to toe and try to sleep but cannot cause he still felt very cold. Then out of the corner of his eyes he saw a figure standing just beside him. Bobian, he forced himself to sleep. The next morning, the fellow on top asked him if he felt anything or seen anything. They confirmed it and went to tell the CSM about it. He just told them to hang their berets on the bed. Nothing happens after that.
2) This happened after our company orded and the new batch of recruits came in. Apparently in a same bunk, a recruit was posessed and started talking in another voice. Things were finally settled after the CSM step in to 'negotiate'.
3) There were of course sightings of flying burning objects outside the window and a recruit waking up to see figures in FBO standing by bed in the bunk. -
Ask any professional soldier and most will tell you that they prefer peace to war and while most will express a quiet determination and patriotism, this is always tempered by the professionalism and simple dedication to get the job done and go home.
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but the government can't fulfill its agenda if the majority of its people doesn't buy its propaganda. if most citizens practice discernment instead of being easily manipulated by nationalistic ideals, there will be no wars to begin with.Originally posted by Gedanken:Agreed, but it gets a bit tricky when you've already sworn allegiance to said government.
Take note, Sardaukar - this is the kind of thing that you have to look out for when considering a career in the armed forces. A friend of mine who was a Green Beret was about to retire after 20 years' service - he had seen the tail end of Vietnam and everything since. I asked him what he was going to do after he retired, and he said, "If I had a choice, I'd pack my family up and move to the mountains - it's all f*cked". I think that says it all, coming from a guy whose patriotism could not be questioned. -
Well, if it goes like what Viking said about the French people's opinion about the Mururoa tests, how true do you think that is? For that matter, why don't you take a look at the struggle between Hitler and his generals?Originally posted by boy in blues:but the government can't fulfill its agenda if the majority of its people doesn't share its ideals. if most individuals practice discernment instead of being easily manipulated by nationalism, there will be no wars to begin with.