Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
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All posts about this go here. News, info, discussions, technical specs, tell everyone your favourite for the choice here. Now in case you're a Singaporean military nut whos been living on Mars the past few years, the contenders are the Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F-15T Eagle (an improved F-15E Strike Eagle derivative)
Boeing F-15E
Dassault Rafale
Eurofighter Typhoon
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Originally posted by nWO on 23 January 2004 · 10:55 PM
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Source: Channel NewsAsia
S'pore MINDEF discusses technical details of flying Typhoon jet with test pilot
SINGAPORE: One of the three fighters in contention to replace Singapore's aging A4-Skyhawks is the Eurofighter Typhoon. Recently, a test pilot for this state-of-the art jet was in town and he told Channel NewsAsia why he thought the Eurofighter might win the dogfight for the more than US$1 billion contract.
Craig Penrice has more than 4,500 hours of flying experience in over 40 different types of aircraft.
Among them the American Boeing F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon, which are currently going head-to-head in a dogfight with the French Rafale to replace Singapore's Skyhawks.
But Mr Penrice, who is now testing the Typhoon, considers it the better of the two and the jewel in the crown is its cockpit.
"Things like being able to command the plane through voice control. I can do many tasks by simply talking to the plane. In my helmet, I have tactical information so wherever I'm looking, I don't have to look at the displays in the cockpit. Wherever I'm looking behind, outside I still have information available to me, this head-up-head-out looking out the plane is vitally important," he said.
BAE Systems which builds the Typhoon has been eyeing the Singapore contract for more than 4 years now.
Buying a new generation fighter jet is not a simple task.
It's much more complex than buying a new car for example. The technical details are so sophisticated and complex, BAE Systems specialists get questioned by MINDEF officials on technical issues a few times a day.
This is why Mr Penrice was in town recently to give the Defence Ministry his perspective as a Typhoon test pilot.
"Because we know what it is that the service pilot needs out of his airplane. Engineers appreciate that knowledge and they do listen to us. But with all the best intention something doesn't quite work as envisaged, we report on that and we discuss it and we come up with a plan to improve it," added Mr Penrice.
BAE Systems' Typhoon Export Programme Director, Andy Wilson, said: "The next phase we'll have to put formal information in front of the authorities here in terms of the specifications and costing data. All of that will be evaluated and assessed by the Singappore government before making their preferred choice."
Singaporeans may get a glimpse of the Eurofighter Typhoon next month at Asian Aerospace.
But the Defence Ministry is not expected to make its final choice till 2005. - CNA -
F-15 for me!
love that plane!!!! -
Originally posted by cavsg 26 February 2004 · 08:41 PM
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Export Boost
AW&ST
Feb 23, 2004
Launch of key software upgrade may improve Rafale's Singapore prospects despite potential slowdown in French orders.
French plans to go ahead with an anti-ship/reconnaissance upgrade for the Dassault Rafale fighter and ensure timely air force service entry signal the government's willingness to boost the aircraft's export potential. However, the extent of that support is unclear.
Defense procurement agency DGA reaffirmed on Feb. 2 that an audit ordered to evaluate whether existing Rafale delivery timetables can be maintained --as well as who will pay for the impact of previous stretchouts-- would have no effect on export sales. In particular, the DGA said the review should not affect a Singapore air force competition to be decided later this year. The Rafale has been shortlisted for the 20-aircraft purchase, along with the Boeing F-15 and Eurofighter Typhoon.
A dozen Rafales are currently in service with the French navy on the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier. These have only the basic F1 software package, with a limited air-to-air engagement capability, although a second flotilla with upgraded software is to be added over the next five years.
Moreover, the DGA confirmed that a contract for development of a software upgrade designed to add a strategic strike, reconnaissance and antiship capability to the Rafale--the basis for the export version being offered to Singapore-- would be awarded by month's end. Known as F3, the upgrade is intended specifically for the new ASMP-A missile that will equip France's nuclear fighter-bomber fleet, but it will serve conventional applications as well.
In addition, the DGA insisted that further delays to the program, which is already 10 years late, would not affect the planned dates for introducing the aircraft into service with the French air force. This is expected to be another key element in the Singapore selection.
The first air force squadron equipped with the current F2 software--intended to improve air-to-air combat capabilities and add a surface strike dimension-- will become operational in 2006, as planned, the DGA said. The F2 package will allow the Rafale to carry the new AASM modular standoff weapon and Scalp cruise missile, integrated with the Damocles laser designator pod.
The first F3 nuclear-armed Rafale squadron will enter service in 2008, about in line with Singapore's target for initial operational capability. This version will be associated with a new-generation reconnaissance pod and other improvements. On Feb. 10, the DGA issued MBDA an award to adapt the MM39 airborne version of the Exocet antiship missile to the multirole version, as part of a larger Exocet upgrade award.
Furthermore, the agency said new delays would not influence the total number of Rafales to be acquired(294), and in particular a pending buy of a new batch of multirole aircraft to supplement the 61 on order. The government said this purchase, which had been expected in 2003, would go ahead this year, although it did not specify whether the buy would cover all 59 aircraft originally planned. In fact, officials noted, a lower delivery rate could actually benefit the Rafale in Singapore, by freeing up production slots.
For their part, Dassault Aviation executives noted that the second issue in the audit--who is to pay for extra costs to replace obsolescent electronics stemming from past delays-- will affect only existing F1 standard aircraft, not future purchases. Replacing these components will entail considerable redesign, testing and rejigging of production that could cost several hundred million dollars or more, they indicated.
Nevertheless, despite broad evidence of the government's good will, Dassault officials--mindful of past refusals to support export upgrades with state money-- remain unsure of the ultimate level of public commitment. True, Singapore has been offered the possibility of using air force training facilities in Cazaux, France, and participating in development of a new RBE-2 active-phased array antenna radar for the Rafale(AW&ST Nov. 10 , 2003,p.19).
But Dassault considers that a French government commitment to the RBE2, which is only at the demonstration stage, may be crucial to the outcome. Currently, France does not plan to launch development of the radar until 2008. The RBE 2 would permit use of the new-generation Meteor beyond-visual-range weapon, to be introduced in 2012, as well as an all-weather metric-precision AASM version and future suppression of enemy air defense systems(AW&ST June 23 , 2003,p.3.
No indication was given about the number of aircraft that might be affected by the possible delivery cutback. But the two air force squadrons would account for around 40 of the 76 aircraft to be delivered by 2008, and the naval flotilla for a dozen more. -
Originally posted by cavsg on 05 March 2004 · 12:37 AM
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ok here is the scoop by awst
rafale is the 1st to undergo flight evaluation, there are a2a and a2g sorties, weightage is not known.
after usaf annonce plans to get stovl jsf, spore is considering it also
rsaf need to decide whether to get wso for this new fighter fleet, decision will affect weapons and training location.
storm shadow for europeans and slam-er for usa offered.
due to slow release of aim-9x, boeing asked about intergrate asraam on eagle
typhoon problem is with its multirole development, eagle and rafale is well ahead in this area, eagle lose out on tech transfer. rafale lose out in fitting wif falcon and jsf. -
I have taken the liberty to re-post some of the articles previously posted here related to the NGF, with credit to the original poster as well as the original time/date of posting.
Now, want to hear from you guys: Should I close the more recent duplicate threads? They'll still be available for reading, but no one can post on them. This is to (hopefully) encourage posters who want to post about the competition to post on this thread. -
i'll take the eagle
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up to you, you are the 'air boss'Originally posted by Viper52:I have taken the liberty to re-post some of the articles previously posted here related to the NGF, with credit to the original poster as well as the original time/date of posting.
Now, want to hear from you guys: Should I close the more recent duplicate threads? They'll still be available for reading, but no one can post on them. This is to (hopefully) encourage posters who want to post about the competition to post on this thread. -
some interesting findings on F15 from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-variants.htm
it says
"The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superior radar, the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. A few F-15Cs are equipped with the APG-63(V2) Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Fighter Data Link (FDL). Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraftÂ’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed."
of course it was the older version of F15s -
i think if the simulation was done by Boeing, the scores would be different...Originally posted by KamenRider:some interesting findings on F15 from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-variants.htm
it says
"The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superior radar, the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. A few F-15Cs are equipped with the APG-63(V2) Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Fighter Data Link (FDL). Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraftÂ’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed."
of course it was the older version of F15s
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At the end of the day simulations are just......... simulations!
The F15E is the only a/c with a true blue "combat record".
I wonder what is the F15E's RCS compared to Raf and Typhoon? Since the 15's airframe is designed during non-stealth era, I wonder whether this will have an impact on its capability when stealth is more important. -
Can the Typhoon or Rafale launch US missiles, eg AIM-120 etc?
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can but so far only typhoon did a live firing in 2002, rafale not so sureOriginally posted by touchstone_2000:Can the Typhoon or Rafale launch US missiles, eg AIM-120 etc? -
I believe that RSAF should not only look jus at the aircraft, weapon systems, tech transfers, but also at private finance initiative deals such as provision of simulator and classroom training and services such as mintenance and servicing of aircraft.
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I've checked this site and according to it, it can carry US-made ordanances, but like cavsg said, i'm not sure if thats been tested either.Originally posted by cavsg:can but so far only typhoon did a live firing in 2002, rafale not so sure
btw here's the site...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/
here's some more sites about the F-15E and the Eurofighter Typhoon
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f15/index.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/index.html -
heh... i like the Rafale's cockpit... HOTAS right? typhoon and eagle standard stick inbetween legs...
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Hands On Throttle And Stick doesn't mean the stick cannot be in the middle. the eagle was the 1st a/c to be truly HOTAS. all the necessary dogfight controls are on the throttle and stick.Originally posted by Moonstriker:heh... i like the Rafale's cockpit... HOTAS right? typhoon and eagle standard stick inbetween legs...
i prefer the stick to be in the center. imagine in wartime you got hit on the right side and your right hand is injured, how you going to fly with left hand if the stick is not in centre. -
heard that F-15 was doing circuits at tengah this morning, anyone saw, can confirm?
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i personnally like Typhoon but this compeition highly chances of winning the contract is follow like this from what i feel:
Rafale
Typhoon
F-15T
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theres only one choice for the rsaf and tats the F15.its battle-tested and proven technology and the rsaf always go for tried and proven hardware.the eurofighter was never a contender simply because its too new,Germany and britain are still testing it and the orders from these 2 countries for the eurofighter are only going to be totally fulfilled after the year 2010.the rsaf needs a new attack aircraft now and not 6 years later.the french rafale is also new and not really thoroughly tested yet,anyway its stil much more expensive than the F15 in terms of aircraft and life-cycle costs.the question is not just a matter of selecting an aircraft but also the armament that comes with it.not too sure if the rafale is compatible with the full range of american missiles such as the maverick or aamraam tat we now have in our arsenal.the F15 also can fly farther and carry more payload compared to the rafale.if the F15 is good enough for israel,south korea and japan then its good enough for the rsaf.plus spares will not be a problem simply because there are much more F15s flying around compared to the french rafale.
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on principal I agree wif most that the F15 would be the choice fighter but when talking technology transfer the americans make poor partners. Most likely it will be the rafale I think.
recall several years ago there was an article in the papers regarding counter measures, mindef claimed that such things not off the shelf and were hard to come by even from allies such as the americans.
But the french are willing to provide us the know how to build advance radar systems, does it means that with this knowledge we can now build our own version of countermeasures?
The french in this case will be willing to throw into the kitty their own mothers to seal the deal if it is sweet enough. But based on history they are dirty bastards known to have made arm supply deals to countries like israel, iraq and most recently taiwan then backstab them later on. Any deal with them I feel needs to be really ironclad. -
yap, given Mindef recent dealing with the French such as the Giat AMX-10, LG 105 mm, Formidable (La Fayatte) class Frigates, I think Mindef has a handle on them. Unless the French really doesn't intend to sell Rafale to other countries other than Singapore (which is not true, they are trying to sell it to other Guilf country and possibly India), they cannot afford to screw Singapore like they did with Taiwan, Iraq and Israel.Originally posted by paulho:on principal I agree wif most that the F15 would be the choice fighter but when talking technology transfer the americans make poor partners. Most likely it will be the rafale I think.
recall several years ago there was an article in the papers regarding counter measures, mindef claimed that such things not off the shelf and were hard to come by even from allies such as the americans.
But the french are willing to provide us the know how to build advance radar systems, does it means that with this knowledge we can now build our own version of countermeasures?
The french in this case will be willing to throw into the kitty their own mothers to seal the deal if it is sweet enough. But based on history they are dirty bastards known to have made arm supply deals to countries like israel, iraq and most recently taiwan then backstab them later on. Any deal with them I feel needs to be really ironclad. -
I won't be so sure about being screwed by the French..........
These g to g kinda of stuffs.........is like signing a blank check.........
I know of one critical system that's a victim of such thingy.
So let me re-cap here.......
RSAF is spending at least a couple of billions of dollars for 8 kites (eventually 20) to replace approximately 75 A-4SUs
for the sake of technology transfer on radar technology?!!!
So CAS missions will now come under the F-16s?
F-16s takeover A4s in CAS and perform SEAD, Air intercept, Strike and Escort missions.
F-5s is probably now more like a 2 stage SAM with Python 4.
What then does NGF really do? I mean you buy because of technology transfer OR you have a mission to fill OR whatever?
NGF motive is unclear to me. Seems NGF is not spending to achieve Maximum BANG for the BUCK.
What about composites in tropical Singapore? I know of some problems faced by S211s when they first arrived.