Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
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It has become infamous as well, quite a lot of accidents involving EuroFighter.Originally posted by foga:EURO fighter or Typhoon is a multi-nation project.
yes it's a virgin design. and RSAF has to keep up with the latest technology constantly! if not, they would have to revert the NS period back to 2.5 years!! (perhaps after the minister's , namely LHL's sons, finishes their NS liablity)
perhaps, on our singaporean point of view, only planes that are combat-proven / battle-tested are the american planes. why didn't u bring out the Tornados? among the 4th generation fighter planes, euro fighter has won quite an impressive order list.
as for euro fighter havin the shortest range... tat i'll leave it to the experts.. -
it's ....nvm...
and which SAM were u referring to?
u were right , Japan does not have F-16s( whichever model u're comfortable with) but we're not the onli country in Asia tat has
F-16C/Ds. South Korea has them. In fact, they were first foreign operator of the F-16C/D model of the fighting falcon. they have in all 140 F-16C/Ds in service purchased under Peace Bridge II and III.
But we are the sole user of F-16C/Ds in SEA region! hola! and RSAF has the largest fleet of F-16C/Ds in SEA region!Originally posted by sbst275:Yes, the 12 newer AH64 are longbrow, that's why they can come back only in 2008. This was the 2nd order
Sorry, it's not Scud but rather SAM (I'm apologetic of this, causing confusion)
We are the only country in Asia to have the F16CD and one of the largest fleet. Israel, Japan does not have F16CD but F15E, get your facts right. Taiwan is using F16AB
Belgium, Denmark are using F16AB only. As for upgrading, it was the 7 A/B
As for weapons, they could have been implicated by political events like in 1993 for one guy. They also don't wish to have sendiments happening. BTW, MY citizens are already ranting on us having so many planes. -
wat about the swedish JAS 39 Gripen?Originally posted by sbst275:JAS 39 is one of them
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u still dun get it do u?
i quote wd1 -->
the rafales can be refueled by the KC135.
there are basically two systems for midair refuelling: the boeing flying boom, used by planes built for the USAF, and the probe-and-drogue system, used by everything else that has midair refuelling capability. our kc135 carries a flying boom at the rear and a drogue assembly on each wing, and can refuel both type. no problem.
meaning to say, if the airforce has the refuel aircraft to cater to either boom or probe and drouge system, they can refuel their 'mid-air refuellable' planes.
[quote]Originally posted by sbst275:
I know, but does Britian or Germany has for EuroFighter? -
Refer to Tim Huxley bk for the SAMOriginally posted by foga:it's ....nvm...
and which SAM were u referring to?
u were right , Japan does not have F-16s( whichever model u're comfortable with) but we're not the onli country in Asia tat has
F-16C/Ds. South Korea has them. In fact, they were first foreign operator of the F-16C/D model of the fighting falcon. they have in all 140 F-16C/Ds in service purchased under Peace Bridge II and III.
But we are the sole user of F-16C/Ds in SEA region! hola! and RSAF has the largest fleet of F-16C/Ds in SEA region!
South Korea does have F16CD, sorry. But their air force is still bulk of F-5K. In SEA, we have the most no of F16 as well
As for your JAS 39, it is from SAAB and the newest recon plane. Otherwise there is only F14
Your qn of Rafale, I'm NOT asking for Rafale. I'm asking FOR EuroFighter.
As for your Torando, it is only good at its speed (No better than Eagle), range is quite short. I do have a list of favuorite aircraft actually -
i c... so ROKAF 's 140 F-16C/Ds dun mean tat much a thing to u lah...... i c....
ya we also have the largest number of F-16C/D's cockpits....
As for the Gripens, i believed they are designated as multi role combat aircrafts....dun know much abt the aerial recon version tat i believe you were trying to tell me. but wat abt them? and wat abt the F14s?
as for aerial refuelling, the theory applies to all. whether it's a rafael or eurofighter or f15.
doesn't mean u buy a Ford u can't top up ur car at BP.
and wat's so special /classified abt the SAM?Originally posted by sbst275:Refer to Tim Huxley bk for the SAM
South Korea does have F16CD, sorry. But their air force is still bulk of F-5K. In SEA, we have the most no of F16 as well
As for your JAS 39, it is from SAAB and the newest recon plane. Otherwise there is only F14
Your qn of Rafale, I'm NOT asking for Rafale. I'm asking FOR EuroFighter. -
The JAS 39 is an pure recon plane. F14 is tomcat which can have recon cams.Originally posted by foga:i c... so ROKAF 's 140 F-16C/Ds dun mean tat much a thing to u lah...... i c....
ya we also have the largest number of F-16C/D's cockpits....
As for the Gripens, i believed they are designated as multi role combat aircrafts....dun know much abt the aerial recon version tat i believe you were trying to tell me. but wat abt them? and wat abt the F14s?
as for aerial refuelling, the theory applies to all. whether it's a rafael or eurofighter or f15.
doesn't mean u buy a Ford u can't top up ur car at BP.
and wat's so special /classified abt the SAM?
As for refuelling, thks for making that clear
SAM, let's see Igla SAM, RBS70 SAM are the ones -
gripen's a pure recon plane?i seriously believe u have got it mix up....
u're welcome..
as for the SAMs, let's see,... igla's from russia, rbs70 are from sweden....wat has it got to do with US?Originally posted by sbst275:The JAS 39 is an pure recon plane. F14 is tomcat which can have recon cams.
As for refuelling, thks for making that clear
SAM, let's see Igla SAM, RBS70 SAM are the ones -
For SAM, is it Mistral? This bk is also very senitive on weapons.Originally posted by foga:gripen's a pure recon plane?i seriously believe u have got it mix up....
u're welcome..
as for the SAMs, let's see,... igla's from russia, rbs70 are from sweden....wat has it got to do with US?
JAS 39 is a "single seater fighter jet, all weather, attack, recon plane. But it can be like RF5.
As ROKAF F5, it is really as if like RSAF have almost the same no of A4, F5 and F16CD. But, the A4 and F5 may be replaced together. If they can reduce F5 to like this, then may be the F16CD can be the main aircraft. -
mistral's from france.
there u've said it, JAS39 is not a pure recon plane. it is a multi role fighter jet.Originally posted by sbst275:For SAM, is it Mistral? This bk is also very senitive on weapons.
JAS 39 is a "single seater fighter jet, all weather, attack, recon plane. But it can be like RF5. -
Then this SAM is a secrect for the weapon specOriginally posted by foga:mistral's from france.
there u've said it, JAS39 is not a pure recon plane. it is a multi role fighter jet.
As for JAS 39, BTW a recon plane needs to be armed. If it kena caught how? It needs to attack at least -
haiz..............
no comments.....Originally posted by sbst275:Then this SAM is a secrect for the weapon spec
As for JAS 39, BTW a recon plane needs to be armed. If it kena caught how? It needs to attack at least -
I see lots of wrong info being posted. Mistral being classified? Not at all. You have a host of nations operating Mistral too.
RSAF largest foreign operator? You have the largest outside US being Israel and you still have the 4 F-16AM/BM european operators whose upgraded machines are equal to Blk 52. Greece and Turkey operate big numbers of F-16s too. In asia pacific, you have SK, Taiwan, whose F-16s are equal to C/D standard but were called A/B to pacificy PRC. Japan's F-2 is a F-16 lookalike.
Gripen is a multi role fighter and one of the roles is recon. If I am not wrong, you still have to mount a recon pod.
In fact lots of aircraft can do recon. F-1CR, F/A-18 blah blah...
Lastly dun refer to much to that book. That book is outdated stuff. -
The Bk I said is a bit cooked up. For missile, we are talking abt SAMOriginally posted by eurofighter:I see lots of wrong info being posted. Mistral being classified? Not at all. You have a host of nations operating Mistral too.
RSAF largest foreign operator? You have the largest outside US being Israel and you still have the 4 F-16AM/BM european operators whose upgraded machines are equal to Blk 52. Greece and Turkey operate big numbers of F-16s too. In asia pacific, you have SK, Taiwan, whose F-16s are equal to C/D standard but were called A/B to pacificy PRC. Japan's F-2 is a F-16 lookalike.
Gripen is a multi role fighter and one of the roles is recon. If I am not wrong, you still have to mount a recon pod.
In fact lots of aircraft can do recon. F-1CR, F/A-18 blah blah...
As for F16CD, many countries uses F16AB, you can check www.combataircraft.com (Although it is outdated, it is quite full of info). JAS 39 if I'm not wrong, it is made with nose. It has a recon, attack job
How many times must I say? Israel uses F15E! Japan does not use F16. For Taiwan, where do you get this info? We were saying, RSAF is ONE OF THE LARGEST F16CD operator and not F16AB (We have only a mere 7) -
Israel has F-15A/B/C/D/I. As I said, Japan's F-2 is derived from the F-16 with mostly Japan tech. RSAF is far from the largest F-16C/D user.
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Originally posted by foga:
I suspect most if not all NATO planes are compatible with one another.....capable of being refuelled mid-air by either the boom or the probe and drouge system.
u still dun get it do u?
i quote wd1 -->
the rafales can be refueled by the KC135.
there are basically two systems for midair refuelling: the boeing flying boom, used by planes built for the USAF, and the probe-and-drogue system, used by everything else that has midair refuelling capability. our kc135 carries a flying boom at the rear and a drogue assembly on each wing, and can refuel both type. no problem.
meaning to say, if the airforce has the refuel aircraft to cater to either boom or probe and drouge system, they can refuel their 'mid-air refuellable' planes.
[quote]Originally posted by sbst275:
[b]
I know, but does Britian or Germany has for EuroFighter?[/b]
Most European planes use the drouge and probe system.
A bit of history, the boom is used by USAF planes; the probe and drogue system by the US NAVY planes.....heh heh heh
Hence the F-15 and F-16 are refuelled by the boom (u stick the boom into the slot behind the cockpit) [female system] while the F-18 and A4s stick their probe into a drogue basket [male system]....
Talk about 'standardisation'
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F-2 is not really the F16CD, they are not made by Lockheed, F-2 is F-2, F16 is F16Originally posted by eurofighter:Israel has F-15A/B/C/D/I. As I said, Japan's F-2 is derived from the F-16 with mostly Japan tech. RSAF is far from the largest F-16C/D user.
I make it clear, RSAF IS ONE of the biggest users of 67 sets in 2005. -
Knew it, the EuroFighter may get itself in trouble as there were reports of its faulty inventories on the RSAF NGF. Read todays "Today" newspaper
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Hi all,
I have become somewhat saddened that after my original post a couple of days ago about how Strike Eagle cannot be written off etc, the forum on the NGF* has deteriorated a little into a slanging match with no small amount of "Who says so?! I did!? Yeah so what!?". It was actually my first time posting on any forum ever and I was under the mistaken impression that there would be a lot of passionate opinionating, sure, but opinions would be backed up by the truth. Reading all the recent posts makes me feel like I was in Secondary 2 again and there was this guy trying to covert me to this religion or other and I was asking him about evolution : "Why didn't evolution take place?" , I'd ask... "Cos the Book said so!" came the cheery reply. "But why did the Book say that?", I'd counter... "Cos evolution didn't take place!" *Grin*.
Sbs guy - I am not casting any aspersions - you may really be curious about why Singapore is looking at the planes we are looking at and why not just "get the Gripen for photo shoots and [insert your fave "striker plane" here - I'm still not sure what it is] for Singapore". But you have a knack about making (frankly speaking), wildy exaggerated statements about weapons systems and, when confronted with a helpful explanation, responding with "I KNEW THAT - but what about [insert another topic]?". A forum is for expressing your opinion, sure, but remember we are not talking about abstract subjects here - instead we are talking about a topic with a lot of widely publicised open source info - you'd do better to read something other than Huxley before you post and when someone corrects you - accept it in the spirit of info exchange and constructive help. We are all friends united by a common interest in the end.....
To set you straight about a few of your remarks:
1) " It [the Eurofighter] has become infamous as well, quite a lot of accidents involving Eurofighter." - I have heard of ONE case of a EF flameout - an early DA6 platform out of Toldedo, Spain using prototype engines. That hardly qualifies for "quite a lot of accidents". A casual online search finds at least one F-15 crash per year since 2000 in the US alone. A YF-22 Raptor late model prototype crashed in 1992. TWO F-18 prototypes crashed during testing. What do the crashes mean? No too much, I'd reckon - just so long as the problem is identified and rectified and planes don't fall out of the sky willy-nilly. So - please stand corrected.
2) "Singapore is one of the largest operators of the F-16C/D outside of the United States" - I have done a survey using online sources (primarily F-16.net - great site that). I discount countries and planes which either operate the F-16 A/B or even have F-16 A/B's "upgraded" to C/D standard. i.e. the survey only covers countries who have bought C/Ds "straight off the market". There are 11 countries which operate C/Ds outside the US (Bah, Chile, Egypt, Greece, Israel, Oman, Poland, Sing, South Korea, Turkey, UAE). So, splitting it down the middle, if Singapore is among the Top 5 operators (numerically speaking) of those 12 countries - your statement is true. That should be fair, yes? Well gues what - Singapore is number seven - behind Egypt (200+), Greece (140), Israel ( well duh!), Turkey (240), South Korea (180) and even little UAE (80). It isn't even the largest operator in Asia - see South Korea. So - please stand corrected.
My final point is - lets stay on course here. Explain why you think one of the three contenders among the Strike Eagle, Typhoon and Rafale has an edge, and why you think the evaluation team will pick it. You can throw in a lot of pictures too - I love pictures! But in the end, be happy to know that what we will purchase will be an order of magnitude more kick-ass than we have ever operated before - then go breed some kids without 500 degree eyesight!
Cheers all,
Your friend,
HiI'mBob -
That's right. However for F16, I'm open abt this because some countries are big (I'm counting by size of country) while we are small. Israel does not have F16CD provided they are newly brought.Originally posted by HiI'mBob:Hi all,
I have become somewhat saddened that after my original post a couple of days ago about how Strike Eagle cannot be written off etc, the forum on the NGF* has deteriorated a little into a slanging match with no small amount of "Who says so?! I did!? Yeah so what!?". It was actually my first time posting on any forum ever and I was under the mistaken impression that there would be a lot of passionate opinionating, sure, but opinions would be backed up by the truth. Reading all the recent posts makes me feel like I was in Secondary 2 again and there was this guy trying to covert me to this religion or other and I was asking him about evolution : "Why didn't evolution take place?" , I'd ask... "Cos the Book said so!" came the cheery reply. "But why did the Book say that?", I'd counter... "Cos evolution didn't take place!" *Grin*.
Sbs guy - I am not casting any aspersions - you may really be curious about why Singapore is looking at the planes we are looking at and why not just "get the Gripen for photo shoots and [insert your fave "striker plane" here - I'm still not sure what it is] for Singapore". But you have a knack about making (frankly speaking), wildy exaggerated statements about weapons systems and, when confronted with a helpful explanation, responding with "I KNEW THAT - but what about [insert another topic]?". A forum is for expressing your opinion, sure, but remember we are not talking about abstract subjects here - instead we are talking about a topic with a lot of widely publicised open source info - you'd do better to read something other than Huxley before you post and when someone corrects you - accept it in the spirit of info exchange and constructive help. We are all friends united by a common interest in the end.....
To set you straight about a few of your remarks:
1) " It [the Eurofighter] has become infamous as well, quite a lot of accidents involving Eurofighter." - I have heard of ONE case of a EF flameout - an early DA6 platform out of Toldedo, Spain using prototype engines. That hardly qualifies for "quite a lot of accidents". A casual online search finds at least one F-15 crash per year since 2000 in the US alone. A YF-22 Raptor late model prototype crashed in 1992. TWO F-18 prototypes crashed during testing. What do the crashes mean? No too much, I'd reckon - just so long as the problem is identified and rectified and planes don't fall out of the sky willy-nilly. So - please stand corrected.
2) "Singapore is one of the largest operators of the F-16C/D outside of the United States" - I have done a survey using online sources (primarily F-16.net - great site that). I discount countries and planes which either operate the F-16 A/B or even have F-16 A/B's "upgraded" to C/D standard. i.e. the survey only covers countries who have bought C/Ds "straight off the market". There are 11 countries which operate C/Ds outside the US (Bah, Chile, Egypt, Greece, Israel, Oman, Poland, Sing, South Korea, Turkey, UAE). So, splitting it down the middle, if Singapore is among the Top 5 operators (numerically speaking) of those 12 countries - your statement is true. That should be fair, yes? Well gues what - Singapore is number seven - behind Egypt (200+), Greece (140), Israel ( well duh!), Turkey (240), South Korea (180) and even little UAE (80). It isn't even the largest operator in Asia - see South Korea. So - please stand corrected.
My final point is - lets stay on course here. Explain why you think one of the three contenders among the Strike Eagle, Typhoon and Rafale has an edge, and why you think the evaluation team will pick it. You can throw in a lot of pictures too - I love pictures! But in the end, be happy to know that what we will purchase will be an order of magnitude more kick-ass than we have ever operated before - then go breed some kids without 500 degree eyesight!
Cheers all,
Your friend,
HiI'mBob
As for why I'm concerned abt EuroFighter, read on todays "Today" newspaper. There were 3 problems with the EuroFighter already
1) Dangerous for solo, bad weather
2) Cockpit inventories are poor in quality which may cause disaster
This report was reviewed by RAF last month. Singapore's MINDEF is looking at this matter closely -
Fully agree!!! I thought this would a more serious site than some 12-yr old pis*ing / shouting contest!!!Originally posted by HiI'mBob:Hi all,
I have become somewhat saddened that after my original post a couple of days ago about how Strike Eagle cannot be written off etc, the forum on the NGF* has deteriorated a little into a slanging match with no small amount of "Who says so?! I did!? Yeah so what!?".
As I undertand it. the flameout problem lies in part with the design of the Eurofighter which is one of the reasons why the French rejected it.Originally posted by HiI'mBob:1) " It [the Eurofighter] has become infamous as well, quite a lot of accidents involving Eurofighter." - I have heard of ONE case of a EF flameout - an early DA6 platform out of Toldedo, Spain using prototype engines. That hardly qualifies for "quite a lot of accidents". A casual online search finds at least one F-15 crash per year since 2000 in the US alone. A YF-22 Raptor late model prototype crashed in 1992. TWO F-18 prototypes crashed during testing. What do the crashes mean? No too much, I'd reckon - just so long as the problem is identified and rectified and planes don't fall out of the sky willy-nilly. So - please stand corrected.
You have one chin intake but two engines. If an engine suffers a flameout, the faulty engine would affect the second engine as well, causing the other engine to fail as well.....
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=211833&messageid=1084803018
Cheers[/url] -
Hi all,
Hi Sbs guy - it is with a weary sigh that I again write in to set your record straight:
Your quote: "Israel does not have F-16C/D provided they are newly bought" - Israel has had four purchases of F-16s from the US under the "Peace Marble" Treaties. Apart from the A/B models purchased under Peace Marble I, the rest of the planes bought under the umbrella of Peace Marble II - IV were F-16C/Ds. And I mean new purchases. And in my original survey, I did not figure in (I mean count) the Israeli A/Bs, nor the Singaporean ones. Israel has over 200+ F-16 C/Ds. Stand corrected again. And for the sake of all of us here - do some reading up - its really fun.
To answer your Eurofighter worry, I have just two words for you - "The Scotsman". To explain that newspaper and its agenda is another long rambling post which doesn't really belong on this forum. But I'm no EF Typhoon apologist - in fact I think its another "committee Frankenstein" like the MBT-70. If Mindef nixes it due to the evaluation team's final report, that would be fine by me. But let's not believe too much in the idea that our concerns will make a difference in the selection process - or that we know better than the guys chosen to select the planes.
Cheers again. -
Before I forget,
Here's a big "thank you" to zenden9* for his photos (the Strike Eagle pix is just outstanding - how many bombs can you count on that thing?) and to southpark2000 for his trivia info about the USAF-boom; USN - drogue system. News we can use and if we stop learning, we stop living.
Didn't I mention that I just love photos? I can tell you why I fancy the Rafale so much. It was that promotional poster of the underside of a Rafale at one of the Asian Aerospaces: it was in a starboard turn and its ventral aspect was just packed with bombs. One word above the plane - "Omnirole". Do any of you recall that poster? I've never been to an AA by the way - I just saw it in the background of some forumer's shot of some miscellaneous piece of weaponry!
And as I've stated before - don't ask me to join the evaluation team! "Oh awesome poster, how much is one of those planes? Fine, I'll take twenty!".
It'll streamline the selection process a great deal though...
Cheers all ... and don't you sometimes wish this forum was a reality show set on the Pearl Islands ... and we were grouped in tribes ... and you know where I'm going on this....
HiI'mBob
*although I think Boudewijn Zenden is utterly utterly utterly useless! -
For Isarel, thks for that info. That means that there are some adjustment. But seriously, a small country of 647km2 can have 120 fighter jet is quite incredibleOriginally posted by HiI'mBob:Hi all,
Hi Sbs guy - it is with a weary sigh that I again write in to set your record straight:
Your quote: "Israel does not have F-16C/D provided they are newly bought" - Israel has had four purchases of F-16s from the US under the "Peace Marble" Treaties. Apart from the A/B models purchased under Peace Marble I, the rest of the planes bought under the umbrella of Peace Marble II - IV were F-16C/Ds. And I mean new purchases. And in my original survey, I did not figure in (I mean count) the Israeli A/Bs, nor the Singaporean ones. Israel has over 200+ F-16 C/Ds. Stand corrected again. And for the sake of all of us here - do some reading up - its really fun.
To answer your Eurofighter worry, I have just two words for you - "The Scotsman". To explain that newspaper and its agenda is another long rambling post which doesn't really belong on this forum. But I'm no EF Typhoon apologist - in fact I think its another "committee Frankenstein" like the MBT-70. If Mindef nixes it due to the evaluation team's final report, that would be fine by me. But let's not believe too much in the idea that our concerns will make a difference in the selection process - or that we know better than the guys chosen to select the planes.
Cheers again.
As for EuroFighter, I'm not anti against it, but such report from RAF is unacceptable as RAF is one of the users of EuroFighter. It is very damaging. Further more, this coincide with our replacement programme. It is also very alarming as well. In fact, this has been around for 1.25 mths already (If you're have noticed). This report was classified until a British Newspaper (The same as the one reporting that we brought 50 EUF) reported it. RAF later on reviewed the same thing as well.
I'm not yelling, but your say the EuroFighter is very good is in opposite of the report especially it is conducted by a user of the EuroFighter. -
i'm so sorry japan operate F-15C/D ROC using actual fact Blk 50 Viper but to to prevent hoha from China redesignate to F-16A/B blk 20 to sound less threateningOriginally posted by sbst275:We are the only country in Asia to have the F16CD and one of the largest fleet. Israel, Japan does not have F16CD but F15E, get your facts right. Taiwan is using F16AB