Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
-
Errm, if it is a bridge (i.e., temporary stop-gap measure), then we shld be getting the F-16s. I would therefore submit that this is more than a bridge, and the plane should last more than a temp bridge, especially if the JSF is delayed or cancelled.Originally posted by LazerLordz:However, we should not forget that this is primarily a programme which will bridge the gap between our Vipers and the JSF.The F-15 already outperforms the aircraft we currently have, and is quite nicely configured to take over the deep strike/bomber role that the A4SU currently undertakes.
Europlanes' air-toair refuelling are compatibile with US. No need to "build from scratch".Originally posted by LazerLordz:After all, why bother trying to develop a comprehensive air-to-air refueling system from scratch and learning all its salient points when you are only concerned with combat radius based on fuel amount from take off.
The Rafale is not as risky - it has been in operations since 1999 and has been deployed in Operating Enduring Freedom (Afghan). The Marine F1 version completed Opeval recently.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Rafale is not battle-proven and the EF2000 has already met with many hiccups.When it comes to the Army, singapore may take their chances with indigenous equipment.But when it comes to aviation, I do not think the policy of the ministry is that of risk-taking, especially when the risks do not constiute any radical experimentation in the form of unknown technology.
It is a misnomer that RSAF is risk averse. I don't have the stats with me here, but SG bot their 1st F-16 in less than a decade it was produced....(someone help me here)
There is equal risk of Eagle going obsolescence as well. -
1. AIM-120s....how many have we got on hand?
Divide them by the no. of F-16s we have and let's see if we have enuf or not 1st.....(someone help!!! - i dun have access to the statistics here).
2. I am not sure if we are able to purchase more of them....given US stance to "balance" the region
3. From 1 and 2, we can deduce that we want to get our hands on more BVR missiles, i.e., from elsewhere (Derbys, MICAs, METEORs eventually?)...
Example:
I know from my prev. post we bot some 400 Pythons (Israel WBR missiles). We know that it is integrated with F-16s. We also know that we have some 60 F-16s.
Hence 400 / 60 = 6.667 missiles per plane. Assuming they carry 4 in a mission (2 at the wingtips, 2 on outer pylons), it implies that the stock can last only 1.2 missions or thereabout.....
Regards -
A logically thought out post here by kingkhong79 without the need to leverage on the use of technology and electronic gizmos jargon to substantiate the stand.Originally posted by kingkhong79:The F15 is not obsolete. When we are talking abou choosing the NGF, it's not just a choice of the airframe.Considerations in the areas of availabilty of subsystems such as armaments,missiles,navigation/targeting systems developed for the aircraft are also very important.Compatibility of aircraft with existing equpment is also highly desirable.In our case,choosing the F15 will be a great advantage for the RSAF since existing missiles and electronic equpment like navigation/targeting pods for the F16s can also be used on the F15.On the logistics point of view,the F15 is definitely a winner.And remember the aim120 missiles, they are also cleared for firing by the F15s.comparatively,On the other hand,choosing the rafale or eurofighter will be a logistical nightmare.existing systems and missiles in our inventory may not be compatible with these 2 aircraft and probably, the RSAF will have to obtain a whole new set of inventory specifically for the eurofighter or rafale.oh and tat definitely means keeping a separate inventory at least for the ammunition for the built-in guns.of course, keeping a separate inventory may not be a critical factor in choosing the NGF but the total life cycle cost (TLCC)must definitely be one.it doesnt take a mathematical genius to calculate tat the TLCC for the F15 will be the lowest simply because there are that many more F15s flying in the air around the world compared to the rafales and eurofighters.The F15 will continue to be the mainstay of the US and Israel air forces at least for the next 15years,so we can definitely expect more F15 upgrade packages like radars being developed in the future.At this point in time,it is quite impossible to calculate the TLCC for the EF or rafales.Problems inherent in the EF have yet to be solved so the EF is alr out of the race for our NGF.France is the only operator of the rafale currently but we can definitely be sure tat the french will charge a premium for the rafale spares just like when they charge our army exorbitant prices for amx10 spares.Therefore based on price alone,the F15 wins any day.
Low price alone obviously is not enough in arguing for the choice of F15 for our NGF.Performance is also vital.In this respect,the F15 also wins interms of the payload it can carry and the range it can go.Initially i was expecting the RSAF to go for more F16s but of course we now know that the F16 was dropped.the dropping of the F16 in the selection speaks volumes for wat the RSAF wants.It wants an aircraft that can carry more and fly further than the F16.The aircraft will be used primarily for deep strike interdiction.Your might argue tat among the 3 aircraft the F15 has the largest radar cross-section but i do not think that is a big problem since flying at low level with a comprehensive suite of radar jammers,this problem will be largely nullified.anyway the EF and rafale are not that stealthy even though they r more stealthy than the F15.Being more stealthy doesnt help tat much in avoiding detection with the advances in radar technology.Recall tat the F117 was shot shot down over yugoslavia even though it was supposed to be a stealth plane.Admittedly, the F15 may not be as capable in a dogfight when compared to the RF or rafale but this may not be a deciding factor in choosing the NGF.tat is beacuse dogfights may become less relevant in the future due to more air-to-air engagements taking place at beyond visual range.The RSAF doctrine is to take out the enemy aircraft on the ground before they managed to take off and then to mop up any remaining aircraft that managed to take off at beyond visual range.Dogfights will be the last resort.the F15 can perform this role very effectively and of course it can carry more aim-120s compared to the EF or rafale.
Anyway I'm very sure the RSAF has chosen the F15 already.Why did you think singapore was so active in supporting the american war in iraq,sending in LST and air tankers for missions in iraq.this is all part of the agreement in exchange for the americans selling us the F15.Why did u think PM Goh and Teo chee hean visited the US recently?To seal the F15 contract before the November Presidential elections in America of course.oh and of course,as part of the deal in supporting the americans in iraq,the aim-120s will now be on singapore soil already.For multi-billion deals,the mindef will always stick to the tried-and-tested and battle-proven like the F16 and apaches.It wont be any different this time.
As for u saying the F15 is obsolete and no match for the EF or rafale.i suggest u should refer to the israelis for confirmation.
There is a lot of difference between "nice to have" and "need to have".
In the current economic climate and the Singaporean kiasuism of wanting everything cheap and good....... the choice seems quite clear. -
No worries LazerLordz, just as much as some would consider the F15 a dead mare, I consider the 2 new jets just over rated new kids on the block and still wet behind the ears. So, I tend to repeat other points raised by fellow posters? But that is because we share the same views that's all, sorry.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Cool it fellas.Viper52, perhaps you could give up mentioning the "deceased mare" and let others who may not have arrived from the beginning of this thread to put forward what they have to say or think.No doubt, as moderator, you may feel that there ain't any progress in the discussion.But we are all here to learn more aren't we?Yepp, and Old Bird, no one is saying you are in the wrong.Maybe you can try to refrain from repeating other points raised by fellow posters.I do find your interest in the P-51 Mustang unique as many do not really follow the older fighters , especially those of the WW2 era.Okies then.Let's all continue our sojourn for greater knowledge.
And yes, I am very interested in the old war birds, especially the Mustang. It was the first WW2 aircraft to be fitted with a bubble canopy, a design that was copied onto the F16 who had their canopies built by Texstar and Serracin.
I am very interested in the airframe design evolution of fighter aircraft from WW2 till the present day.
The current trend is going back to the delta shaped wings which are extremely good lift generators but are extremely stable platforms and therefore difficult to pitch up or down, hence forward canards.
A highly agile aircraft, like the F16 is basically totally unstable due to its centre of gravity is rearset hence the need to use computers to fly it, and I am sure you guys already know about this. -
What?Originally posted by duotiga83:for your info, pls refer to JDW i have the article here want me to quote??
FYI an F15E cost US$ 31.1million
EF2000 cost Euro$80 million (US$96 million)
F35: US$38 million -
The earlier air superiority F-15 A/B/C/D eagles have scored against the arab planes. In fact they were the first to have used the eagle to down bogies rather than the americans. The F-15I entered service in 1997/1998 only so has seen little combat maybe except being used against PLO and other terroists in mud-moving missions.Originally posted by leong262000:did the f-15I shot down any middle east a/c,or engage with migs ,suks???
hopefully our ngf is a rafale -
Ahhh...reading too much again my friend. I referred to the oft-repeated points about the F-15 as the dead horse. Not the F-15 itself, which I respect as an aircraft.Originally posted by Old Bird:No worries LazerLordz, just as much as some would consider the F15 a dead mare, I consider the 2 new jets just over rated new kids on the block and still wet behind the ears.
No need to apologize, just that those points have been rebutted by several posters without reply.
So, I tend to repeat other points raised by fellow posters? But that is because we share the same views that's all, sorry.There is a lot of difference between "nice to have" and "need to have". In the current economic climate and the Singaporean kiasuism of wanting everything cheap and good....... the choice seems quite clear.
True, but you have to remember 2 facts:
- Singapore's defence posture is based on making up for our strategic lack of depth by outnumbering its potential adversaries both in numbers and in quality of our training and equipment, and...
- That the first fact above is seriously being threatened, at least in the qualitative front, by the increasing proliferation of the Su-27/30 being introduced into our neighbour's inventories. And these types have already shown their superiority to the Eagle. Even those with the AESA radars. -
LazerLordz, the RSAF, like many airforces, is moving away from single-role aircraft towards multi- and swing-role aircraft. So in actual fact, the term "replacement for Skyhawks" is in itself, slightly misleading.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I totally agree that the RSAF should get the F-15S.One might comment that the EF2000, or the Rafale F3 may be newer in design and have more new-fangled stuff.However, we should not forget that this is primarily a programme which will bridge the gap between our Vipers and the JSF.The F-15 already outperforms the aircraft we currently have, and is quite nicely configured to take over the deep strike/bomber role that the A4SU currently undertakes.
It is indeed true that this NGF is to bridge the gap between the F-16 and JSF. However, we also have to remember that our priority is to bridge the gap, not just in terms of time, but also to maintain the edge that we currently still have in the region.
Flotill 12F of the Aeronavale might have something to say about the first part of that statement.
After all, why bother trying to develop a comprehensive air-to-air refueling system from scratch and learning all its salient points when you are only concerned with combat radius based on fuel amount from take off.[/quote]
Well, as have been pointed out, the probe and basket AAR method utilised by the Typhoon and Rafale is in use with ALL countries with AAR capabilities with the exception of USAF aircraft. And it has been known that some users of USAF equipment retrofitted their aircraft to refuel via probe and basket, removing the USAF-style receptacle (Eg. Israeli Phantoms)
(Click this link for larger pictures)Rafale is not battle-proven and the EF2000 has already met with many hiccups.
[quote]When it comes to the Army, singapore may take their chances with indigenous equipment.But when it comes to aviation, I do not think the policy of the ministry is that of risk-taking, especially when the risks do not constiute any radical experimentation in the form of unknown technology.
On the contrary, the Super Skyhawk, F-5 upgrade package and the choice of MPA are examples of that.
BTW, I'm an appreciator of old aircraft as well, although I prefer the F6F Hellcat myself.
Seen a C-47 flying before? Now that is a real classic, a must-see by anyone who has any interest in historic aviation. -
F15S is F15 Saudi Arabia mind you
-
Originally posted by Viper52:
SU27 or SU30 especially cannot beat the F15T. F15T is highly upgraded above the F15E standard not to say F15K. What's more, it MAY be added with Isarel technology
True, but you have to remember 2 facts:
- Singapore's defence posture is based on making up for our strategic lack of depth by outnumbering its potential adversaries both in numbers and in quality of our training and equipment, and...
- That the first fact above is seriously being threatened, at least in the qualitative front, by the increasing proliferation of the Su-27/30 being introduced into our neighbour's inventories. And these types have already shown their superiority to the Eagle. Even those with the AESA radars.
[/b] -
The main improvement in air-to-air combat capabilities in the proposed F-15T centres around the APG-63(V)2 or (V)3 AESA radar. This is the radar being used by the F-15C Eagles (from the 19 Fighter Sqn, 3rd Composite Wing from Elmendorf, Alaska) that took part in the recent Cope India exercise where the Indian Su-30s came up tops. And the F-15Cs in Cope India had the Helmet Mounted Sight (JHMCS)/AIM-9X capability which we have seen no indication might be offered to Singapore.Originally posted by sbst275:SU27 or SU30 especially cannot beat the F15T. F15T is highly upgraded above the F15E standard not to say F15K.What's more, it MAY be added with Isarel technology
Quite presumptous don't you think? -
Right you are, sbst275.Originally posted by sbst275:SU27 or SU30 especially cannot beat the F15T. F15T is highly upgraded above the F15E standard not to say F15K. What's more, it MAY be added with Isarel technology
The F15K currently undergoing production is equipped with the GE engines and the construction has moved away from honeycomb structures to gridlocks.
As far as the upgraded blackboxes and all the good stuff, your guess is as good as mine. A jet is only as good as the airframe that provides the lift for all that expensive video arcade gizmos. All that gizmos ain't worth a crap sitting on the ground.
Latest inside info is, the Typhoon sucks big time. They struggled to bring the jets all the way here and are breaking like hell over here. Is our weather thingy. They forgt to tropicalise the jets like other electrical appliances. Heat and humidity does wonders to screw up electronics.
Such a pity. Such an expensive jet, dressed up with all the latest gadgets and it cannot even leave the ground. Might as well use it as a paper weight.
All dressed up and no where to go. -
Don't forget, if we don't get US radar, get from IsraelOriginally posted by Viper52:Quite presumptous don't you think? -
regarding F-15 vs Su-27/30 series, there is reports on the results.......even with the recent Cope India exercise......shall not say more......shld be rather obvious
-
Correct, I think F15T will be bestOriginally posted by Old Bird:Right you are, sbst275.
The F15K currently undergoing production is equipped with the GE engines and the construction has moved away from honeycomb structures to gridlocks.
As far as the upgraded blackboxes and all the good stuff, your guess is as good as mine. A jet is only as good as the airframe that provides the lift for all that expensive video arcade gizmos. All that gizmos ain't worth a crap sitting on the ground.
Latest inside info is, the Typhoon sucks big time. They struggled to bring the jets all the way here and are breaking like hell over here. Is our weather thingy. They forgt to tropicalise the jets like other electrical appliances. Heat and humidity does wonders to screw up electronics.
Such a pity. Such an expensive jet, dressed up with all the latest gadgets and it cannot even leave the ground. Might as well use it as a paper weight.
All dressed up and no where to go.
EF2000 is gone case, I have already said that it is dangerous for solo flying already. Now with this prob, wa lau... -
Heres a couple of interesting articles about technology transfer and how Singapore views them.
=============
The Straits Times, Page H6 - February 26, 2004
Share know-how to secure deals here, says DSTA
By David Boey
DEFENCE companies aiming to land a Singapore contract were told in no uncertain terms yesterday that their sales pitch had better include the sharing of defence know-how with Singapore.
Arms deals with Singapore had stalled when vendors failed to recognise that the transfer of technology could be a deal-breaker, said the Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA), the national authority on military technology and weapons procurements.
Making the point at a two-hour briefing for some 130 defence companies, Mr Soh Kong Pheng, deputy chief executive (operations) at DSTA, said: 'Many of our suppliers can't understand, or underestimate, the importance we place on having technology transfers... We do this so we can, if we need to, upgrade the hardware. Suppliers can achieve an important competitive advantage if they understand this requirement well.'
Citing the ongoing evaluations to find a replacement fighter for the A-4 Super Skyhawk, he said the new warplanes might need to work with unmanned vehicles in future and DSTA also needed to understand how the fighter worked if it were to be upgraded.
Warplanes being evaluated in the deal, estimated to be worth $2 billion, are Dassault Aviation's Rafale, the Boeing F-15T Strike Eagle and the Eurofighter Typhoon.
While contractors would not want to give away all their trade secrets, Mr Soh said 'at the minimum' they should ensure DSTA can 'upgrade, modify and integrate' the warplanes at reasonable cost.
Another key concern was maintenance costs. As much as 40 per cent of the acquisition cost goes to supporting the aircraft through its 20- to 30-year life cycle.
'We need to buy spares, maintenance and support equipment, and so on. And for readiness reasons, we buy much of these upfront... This is too costly,' he said.
He suggested that the three warplane makers think up an 'investment strategy' for maintenance to minimise the upfront expenditure. -
While the F-15T campaign manager, Tom Lillis, admitted at Asian Aerospace, when asked about releasing on source codes to Singapore.
“Singapore wants to maintain and adapt the new fighters…(but) we have to abide by U.S. government rules because it owns this stuff, not us,”
-
F15T still not in production yet and that was an excercise as an MiG29 shot down an F15 bef on an excercise tooOriginally posted by duotiga83:regarding F-15 vs Su-27/30 series, there is reports on the results.......even with the recent Cope India exercise......shall not say more......shld be rather obvious -
And that leaves the Rafale to compete with its French technology and French lingo which none of us can understand.
Our local aircraft maintainers are already finding it hard to speak a second language must now learn French.
The Frech people are a stuckup lot.... they won't speak English to you even if they know how to and even when they know you cannot speak French. Been through that before, and they tend to keep alot of things to themselves.
It is going to be a blast trying to convert their Technical Manuals into English so that our guys can understand. -
That has all along an prob, but some green light go was given in the 11th hr like the green light to buy AH64 longbrow is 1 exampleOriginally posted by Viper52:While the F-15T campaign manager, Tom Lillis, admitted at Asian Aerospace, when asked about releasing on source codes to Singapore.
Even France and BAE may not give us fully as well, who knows? It's a matter of politics.
If cannot, we have a way out, Israel still..... -
Their missiles are very ex and they have been trying to get our deal all along by allowing our pilots in France to fly the Mirage 2000Originally posted by Old Bird:And that leaves the Rafale to compete with its French technology and French lingo which none of us can understand.
Our local aircraft maintainers are already finding it hard to speak a second language must now learn French.
The Frech people are a stuckup lot.... they won't speak English to you even if they know how to and even when they know you cannot speak French. Been through that before, and they tend to keep alot of things to themselves.
It is going to be a blast trying to convert their Technical Manuals into English so that our guys can understand. -
Yeah, and when Singapore wanted to buy the F16 it was initially offered the export version with the JT79 engine.Originally posted by sbst275:That has all along an prob, but some green light go was given in the 11th hr like the green light to buy AH64 longbrow is 1 example
And now the Block 52 plus are rolling in. -
there is a trial in UK where F-15E vs Typhoon.......
-
USA has been v fond of doing that, so don't expect things to be settled early, anything can happen even at the 11th hr.Originally posted by Old Bird:Yeah, and when Singapore wanted to buy the F16 it was initially offered the export version with the JT79 engine.
And now the Block 52 plus are rolling in.
Unlike a neighbour getting a good plane but got a lousy radar and weapons instead from USA -
Did you hear of "weather" prob? As I'm from SGBuses, buses do have such thing as well. Certain engine is not suitable for the tropical climate when they are excellent in Cool climate like in UKOriginally posted by duotiga83:there is a trial in UK where F-15E vs Typhoon.......