Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
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What are the hours the typhoon will be active at plab this weekend?
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quote: Old Bird
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Who are the people in the assessment team?? What are their qualifications??
Just wondering how the selection process works for these guys. Anyone in this forum part of the team??
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qnh1101 replied:
Hi old chap! the pple in the assessment team come from various backgrounds. i cant exactly say who, but pls rest assured that we are all qualified and carefully selected. The team is doing what they can to see which a/c meets our criteria the best. as far as the blue world is concerned the F1 5 is not obselete yet. that is not to say that the EF and Rafale are out of the game. all 3 are very good at what they do, just that some do it better than others.
quote: Old Bird
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qnh1101, are you part of that team?? I did know that they rated the performance criteria as #1 and serviceablility and maintainability as # 6.
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qnh1101 replied:
now, surely, u dun expect an answer to this qns rite?
quote: Old Bird
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Must be a lucky bunch to get to crawl around the aircraft, sit in the cockpit and run the systems and having everything you wanted to know explained to you by the vendors themselves and not forgetting the cool hats they give away.
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qnh1101 replied:
hahahaha... i'll be sure to share this with the others... it's not all that simple or glamarous you know. a lot has to be done and there's a very tight schedule. but yes, u have to crawl around, dig alittle, flip a few switches, push a few buttons etc... mostly, there's alot of back-end analysis... so, not all fun and games, but it's a job and we like what we do. er, no hats tho'
quote: Old Bird
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Lets hope they have aptly qualified people to do this job coz they are talking about alot of taxpayers money there.
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qnh1101 replied:
oh yes, the team is highly qualified and specially chosen...
btw, for those who are interested, do keep a look out for a delta-shaped a/c around PLAB this weekend. nothing sensitive, but the t/o's really cool...
So from what I can read from your reply it seems like you are really part of the assessment team. You guys are lucky!!!!!
I am sure there are people like me who would pay to be able to have a real close up look at those jets... wow, just to be able to get into the cockpit of the Typhoon for a look at the kind of instrumentation that they have. Heard that they were all coloured MFDs.
Is the assessment team the same team that also look at the F15E and the Rafale too. At least by looking at all three they can come up with an unbiased report, right?? -
Hi all
Here is the reasons given why the Typhoon (AD) went U/S at Akrotiri, the plane landed fine, but in the post flight checks a relay was tripped by the ground supply, this took a while to find, and in the mean time the gound spare (BE) from Warton was flown out as a precaution.
However some speculation is appearing that there was a cabin pressure warning too on its first attempt to depart back to the UK, but this is just pure speculation at the moment.
Some images of the deployment are here of BE and BF
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/limage_typhoon_sing.html
BTW QNH1011 If your really involved in the trial, have you got any 'one word' descriptions of the Typhoon to tell us how the deployment is going?.
Cheers -
My pt is, ST Marine staff may have went to France to learnOriginally posted by qnh1011:SBST:
rite... of course... and i'm sure the french are delighted that u compared one of their most advanced designs to a bus... hmmm... is that the popping of champange i hear
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Hi jwcook, thanks for the information, is AD is single or twin seater?Originally posted by jwcook:Hi all
Here is the reasons given why the Typhoon (AD) went U/S at Akrotiri, the plane landed fine, but in the post flight checks a relay was tripped by the ground supply, this took a while to find, and in the mean time the gound spare (BE) from Warton was flown out as a precaution.
However some speculation is appearing that there was a cabin pressure warning too on its first attempt to depart back to the UK, but this is just pure speculation at the moment.
Some images of the deployment are here of BE and BF
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/limage_typhoon_sing.html
BTW QNH1011 If your really involved in the trial, have you got any 'one word' descriptions of the Typhoon to tell us how the deployment is going?.
Cheers
Had lots of reports of the Typhoon flying around in Singapore, looking forward to seeing it myself. -
So from what I can read from your reply it seems like you are really part of the assessment team. You guys are lucky!!!!!
woah there buddy... let's not go there... i know there are some others who lurk around here as well... so, best to not to go into details.
I am sure there are people like me who would pay to be able to have a real close up look at those jets... wow, just to be able to get into the cockpit of the Typhoon for a look at the kind of instrumentation that they have. Heard that they were all coloured MFDs.
Is the assessment team the same team that also look at the F15E and the Rafale too. At least by looking at all three they can come up with an unbiased report, right??
I certainly appreciate the fact that you have all displayed keen interest in the selection process and someday, u might really get to see what you've been yearning for. pls take it as a serious compliment, you all.
but can i appeal to all to make this a healthy and relevant discussion? it's really painful to see some of the fallacies and misconceptions that are posted here... for instance the F5 is a single engine a/c? plssss... there is alot of information abt the F15, Rafale and EF out there in the internet. search and dig around, then toss your ideas around here...
i can try to correct certain misperceptions, but we need each and everyone's help to keep this a healthy and worthy thread. agreed? -
Hi all
hmmm... seems to me you've got well-planted sources or are you somehow involved as well? in which case, i wonder why are pple so keen to know the nitty gritty details abt the evaluation trials? look, if it helps make u feel comfy, i categorically deny any involvement. my point here has been consistent. I am not here to seek attention or display insider's knowledge. The aim in this forum is to enhance the value of one's knowledge.
Here is the reasons given why the Typhoon (AD) went U/S at Akrotiri, the plane landed fine, but in the post flight checks a relay was tripped by the ground supply, this took a while to find, and in the mean time the gound spare (BE) from Warton was flown out as a precaution.
However some speculation is appearing that there was a cabin pressure warning too on its first attempt to depart back to the UK, but this is just pure speculation at the moment.
Some images of the deployment are here of BE and BF
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/limage_typhoon_sing.html
BTW QNH1011 If your really involved in the trial, have you got any 'one word' descriptions of the Typhoon to tell us how the deployment is going?.
Cheers
The bottomline here is this, we may each have our own preferences of the NGF, but let's all keep an open mind and hear what the others have to say. Blind statements abt ships and buses do not help enhance the exchange of thots. Neither do personal challenges of who's qualified, who's involved, who has first hand knowledge etc... now, let's get back to the topic shall we? -
Hi, I try to provide some things I know, to get a better impression of the three contenders.
(1) The Eagles that took part in Cope India 2004 were from Elmendorf, Alaska, but they where not equipped with the APG-63(V3). On the other side, the Indians had "only" Sukhoi 30 MK. The newest variant, Su-30 MKI was not involved. Further more, the Indians had their Flankers only armed with AA-10 Alamo's, not R-77. The outcome is of course great for both sides. The Air Force can now justify the Raptor and the Indians the investment in the Flanker.
(2) The Typhoon is able to fly in every weather. There were some things mixed up. Since Typhoon is pretty new, it was not cleared for it. This means not it is unable to do so. It was a simple act of burocracy. It had to get verified by all 4 nations involved as well as the NETMA.
(3)I would like to point you at something: While the Typhoon has more internal fuel, the Rafale has at the moment the advantage of larger external tanks. (2000l compared to 1000l of the Typhoon) The Eagle has the largest maximum range, while Typhoon is the only contender able to supercruise. Maybe someone with more insight in some stats could provide which AC has the largest range at M 1,2.
(4)Typhoon is compatible to European AND American weapons.
(5)The Eagles airframe is the most prooven, but it's weapons system is pretty new, the same for it's EW-suite.
(6)The French were able to proove that the EW-suite of the M2k was superior to other NATO aircraft in joint exercises. The Typhoon is the only one that provides already a towed decoy.
(7)The Eagle is at the end of it's service life, while major upgrades for Typhoon and Rafale are already underway or planned for the future. A hidden plus for the Eagle is the possibility of Israelian upgrades. BUT F-15I and the proposed F-15T are partly different aircraft avionics wise, so there is a big question mark behind compatibility with Israelian systems... -
OK Thats fair comment, I can also state I'm not involved in the selection process, and My preference is for the Typhoon (whats your preference?).Originally posted by qnh1011:hmmm... seems to me you've got well-planted sources or are you somehow involved as well? in which case, i wonder why are pple so keen to know the nitty gritty details abt the evaluation trials? look, if it helps make u feel comfy, i categorically deny any involvement. my point here has been consistent. I am not here to seek attention or display insider's knowledge. The aim in this forum is to enhance the value of one's knowledge.
The bottomline here is this, we may each have our own preferences of the NGF, but let's all keep an open mind and hear what the others have to say. Blind statements abt ships and buses do not help enhance the exchange of thots. Neither do personal challenges of who's qualified, who's involved, who has first hand knowledge etc... now, let's get back to the topic shall we?
There's quite a bit of misinformation here about the Typhoon, the price is one area where several mistakes have been made, its quite funny to see certain things stated as facts that are clearly wrong.
OK heres some more information.
The Typhoon and Rafale are about the same in price, (I'm not an expert on the Rafale so correct me if I'm wrong!) the price range for a typhoon is between USD$50m to USD$70m depending on equipment fitted and quantity purchased. (this is the Flyaway price), this compares very well with the competition.
Range is also ablout the same, radar performance is difficult to say the RBE2 has less range than the Captor, but better is some modes, less good in reliability.
The Typhoon is easy to maintain MMH/FH is very good, its less than the contracted figure of 9, and is excellent in comparison.
Now if you want some fun with figures heres a rough guide to finding your NGF
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.html under National Evaluation.
Enter how important each criteria is out of 100 in each box and press Compute results, this will give you a best fit on technical grounds, (Please read the caveats ;-) )
If you put 100 in only one box and press compute results it will show you the weighting we have given each aircraft in that area.
When finished, use the menu's at the top of each page to explore the site, its stuffed full of info from reliable sources.
ENJOY!
BTW AD is a twin... -
Thanks jwcook. Alot of good info on the Typhoon there.
Composites and humidity do not go well together. Water entrapment within the airframe and its subsequent core material delamination or debonding results in structural failures that can happen without impending warnings.
Understand that 85% of the airframe is composite materail. I guess the Rafale should be about the same. And all these composite fun stuff have not been tested out in the tropical jungle of Singapore.
Hope the assessment team has experts from the structural section to look into this new 'problem' called composites. For that matter, with all the use of these new high tech composites, does Singapore have the capability, facility or the technology to do repairs if needed? Or will the OEM be making tonnes of eurodollars for after sales repairs??
All the gimmicks and advanced computer gizmos ain't worth a crap if the airframe that is carrying it cannot even leave the ground because its radar aborbing high tech composite structure is affected by absorbed moisture, which Singapore has plenty of.
A case again for "nice to have" versus "need to have". -
Interesting comments about composites.....anyone got info on Rafale M (Marine version)'s performance out at sea?Originally posted by Old Bird:Thanks jwcook. Alot of good info on the Typhoon there.
Composites and humidity do not go well together. Water entrapment within the airframe and its subsequent core material delamination or debonding results in structural failures that can happen without impending warnings.
Understand that 85% of the airframe is composite materail. I guess the Rafale should be about the same. And all these composite fun stuff have not been tested out in the tropical jungle of Singapore.
Hope the assessment team has experts from the structural section to look into this new 'problem' called composites. For that matter, with all the use of these new high tech composites, does Singapore have the capability, facility or the technology to do repairs if needed? Or will the OEM be making tonnes of eurodollars for after sales repairs??
All the gimmicks and advanced computer gizmos ain't worth a crap if the airframe that is carrying it cannot even leave the ground because its radar aborbing high tech composite structure is affected by absorbed moisture, which Singapore has plenty of.
A case again for "nice to have" versus "need to have".
I reckon if the Rafale M can survive a sea deployment, it can survive a tropical environment....
Southpark
The Dude -
Anyone here knows how well the Eagle's airframe can withstand the tropical air and moisture as compared to the Rafale M?I believe Eagles were stationed in Guam and Diego Garcia before, therefore are they easier to tropicalise?
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Very little composites used on the F15s.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Anyone here knows how well the Eagle's airframe can withstand the tropical air and moisture as compared to the Rafale M?I believe Eagles were stationed in Guam and Diego Garcia before, therefore are they easier to tropicalise?
Plain old metal bird. Plain old problems. Nothing a patch repair or stop drill cannot resolve. No need to mess with hazardous chemicals, vapours or materails.
The fallout that is the byproduct of burning composites are sometimes extremely dangerous when inhaled. Stay far away when expoxy graphite composites are burning, its ashes when inhaled will probably kill you.
Composites are the in thing when it comes to weight savings. The use of composites is very evident in the F1 cars. And look at their brake discs, lightweight carbon fibre. But one knock, and it all goes to pieces. Composites tend to be lightweight, brittle but extremely strong as strong as metal sometimes like kevlar for example.
Most of the time patch repairs are not recommended and normally the damaged part is changed out as one whole piece so as not to compromise the strenght of the entire assembly. Can be quite an expensive affair.
The trouble is composites are relatively new and so it is not fully developed yet. The problem of moisture entrapment has always been the Archilles heel of this new technology. Maybe in a few years time they may come out with a winner. -
You did mention "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Well, you've just emphasized your point.Originally posted by Old Bird:Thanks jwcook. Alot of good info on the Typhoon there.
Composites and humidity do not go well together. Water entrapment within the airframe and its subsequent core material delamination or debonding results in structural failures that can happen without impending warnings.
Understand that 85% of the airframe is composite materail. I guess the Rafale should be about the same. And all these composite fun stuff have not been tested out in the tropical jungle of Singapore.
Hope the assessment team has experts from the structural section to look into this new 'problem' called composites. For that matter, with all the use of these new high tech composites, does Singapore have the capability, facility or the technology to do repairs if needed? Or will the OEM be making tonnes of eurodollars for after sales repairs??
All the gimmicks and advanced computer gizmos ain't worth a crap if the airframe that is carrying it cannot even leave the ground because its radar aborbing high tech composite structure is affected by absorbed moisture, which Singapore has plenty of.
A case again for "nice to have" versus "need to have".
True, moisture absorption is a serious problem in composites, and that is already a well documented fact. But then again, the world of composites is vast, and while certain types of composites do absorb moisture rapidly, there are other types which don't. We don't know exactly what kind composites go into the aircraft, so to make a sweeping statement like, "Composites absorb moisture, this region is humid, so composite aircraft = bad" is plain wrong.
The RSAF and SIA have had plenty of experience operating aircraft with composite compenents, the S.211, F-16 and even our helicopters use composites in many areas, and SIA's B777s and A340s have no shortage of composites in their makeup as well, so don't put it like it is the first time aerospace composites are being introduced in aircraft based in our country. so its the first time Singapore is looking at aircraft with that much composite components in them, but then its not like our operators and maintainers don't have experience with such materials.
Lastly, I don't think the assessment team needs us to tell them what to look out for.
Jwcook, thanks for the links. I believe all 3 contenders have their strong plus points and their own minus points, so I will not rubbish any of them like some of the other posters, but based on capabilities AND asthetics I have to disagree with you and go for the Rafale.
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Fully agreed, Viper52,
Very true indeed, a little knowledge IS a dangerous thing. -
Correct, F15 has been tested in Singapore as US sends F15E to PLAB to exercise, it is very suitable. Composite is a real big prob, its reliability, strength, performance matter alotOriginally posted by Old Bird:Thanks jwcook. Alot of good info on the Typhoon there.
Composites and humidity do not go well together. Water entrapment within the airframe and its subsequent core material delamination or debonding results in structural failures that can happen without impending warnings.
Understand that 85% of the airframe is composite materail. I guess the Rafale should be about the same. And all these composite fun stuff have not been tested out in the tropical jungle of Singapore.
Hope the assessment team has experts from the structural section to look into this new 'problem' called composites. For that matter, with all the use of these new high tech composites, does Singapore have the capability, facility or the technology to do repairs if needed? Or will the OEM be making tonnes of eurodollars for after sales repairs??
All the gimmicks and advanced computer gizmos ain't worth a crap if the airframe that is carrying it cannot even leave the ground because its radar aborbing high tech composite structure is affected by absorbed moisture, which Singapore has plenty of.
A case again for "nice to have" versus "need to have".
Rafale and EF2000 may not survive well, who knows as EF2000 has lots of prob already when flying to Singapore (From above article) -
Yup, and it often manifests itself in skirting issues, flogging of dead horses and failure to rebut points.Originally posted by Old Bird:Fully agreed, Viper52,
Very true indeed, a little knowledge IS a dangerous thing.
Say, Old Bird, any plans to rebut my rebuttal of your points? You keep bringing up new points that I rebut, but we never seem of have a proper debate after you clam up subsequently over the original point you make.
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Is there an echo here? Or is it a parrot?Originally posted by sbst275:Correct, F15 has been tested in Singapore as US sends F15E to PLAB to exercise, it is very suitable. Composite is a real big prob, its reliability, strength, performance matter alot
Rafale and EF2000 may not survive well, who knows as EF2000 has lots of prob already when flying to Singapore (From above article) -
Originally posted by Viper52:Is there an echo here? Or is it a parrot?
BRW Tropical weather and carrier climate are different as the planes can be kept underneath the runway -
Once again, another post highlighting your ignorance. Keep up at it my friend, comic relief is always welcomeOriginally posted by sbst275:
BRW Tropical weather and carrier climate are different as the planes can be kept underneath the runway
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I'm not ignorantOriginally posted by Viper52:Once again, another post highlighting your ignorance. Keep up at it my friend, comic relief is always welcome
You heard of elevators on aircraft carriers? Read up, the planes are parked and maintained underneath lah
There is no way (Except for about 15) that planes can be parked at the deck as no plane is supposed to be there during operational -
You're the one that needs to read up my boy.Originally posted by sbst275:I'm not ignorant
You heard of elevators on aircraft carriers? Read up, the planes are parked and maintained underneath lah
There is no way (Except for about 15) that planes can be parked at the deck as no plane is supposed to be there during operational
The size of today's planes means not all of them can be parked into the hangar, even with folding wings. Thats why carriers today have tie down ports on the flight deck to secure aircraft.
And even if they are parked in hangars, the ocean air will affect everything without proper acclimatising.
Please, stop making a fool of yourself lah. -
That I know, however, pls planes are still parked in the hangar, very planes can park at the deck during operations. You mean planes can park at the take off and landing lane or the elevators when there is operations? I have a friend who knows of the US Naval carriers and how it works and don't call ppl Parrots or what, it's very rude even in forums. Next time, I will just ignore this person....Originally posted by Viper52:You're the one that needs to read up my boy.
The size of today's planes means not all of them can be parked into the hangar, even with folding wings. Thats why carriers today have tie down ports on the flight deck to secure aircraft.
And even if they are parked in hangars, the ocean air will affect everything without proper acclimatising.
Please, stop making a fool of yourself lah. -
Originally posted by Silat:
Great points Silat1, its good to see some unbiased points expressed by QNH1011 and you here. Nice change from all that biased bashing of some contenders by some other posters here.
Hi, I try to provide some things I know, to get a better impression of the three contenders.
(1) The Eagles that took part in Cope India 2004 were from Elmendorf, Alaska, but they where not equipped with the APG-63(V3). On the other side, the Indians had "only" Sukhoi 30 [b]MK. The newest variant, Su-30 MKI was not involved. Further more, the Indians had their Flankers only armed with AA-10 Alamo's, not R-77. The outcome is of course great for both sides. The Air Force can now justify the Raptor and the Indians the investment in the Flanker.
(2) The Typhoon is able to fly in every weather. There were some things mixed up. Since Typhoon is pretty new, it was not cleared for it. This means not it is unable to do so. It was a simple act of burocracy. It had to get verified by all 4 nations involved as well as the NETMA.
(3)I would like to point you at something: While the Typhoon has more internal fuel, the Rafale has at the moment the advantage of larger external tanks. (2000l compared to 1000l of the Typhoon) The Eagle has the largest maximum range, while Typhoon is the only contender able to supercruise. Maybe someone with more insight in some stats could provide which AC has the largest range at M 1,2.
(4)Typhoon is compatible to European AND American weapons.
(5)The Eagles airframe is the most prooven, but it's weapons system is pretty new, the same for it's EW-suite.
(6)The French were able to proove that the EW-suite of the M2k was superior to other NATO aircraft in joint exercises. The Typhoon is the only one that provides already a towed decoy.
(7)The Eagle is at the end of it's service life, while major upgrades for Typhoon and Rafale are already underway or planned for the future. A hidden plus for the Eagle is the possibility of Israelian upgrades. BUT F-15I and the proposed F-15T are partly different aircraft avionics wise, so there is a big question mark behind compatibility with Israelian systems...[/b]
Anyway, the aircraft which took part in Cope India were from the 19 Fighter Sqn, 3rd Wing from Elmendorf Alaska. They deployed to India after a Commando Sling in Singapore. And they are the ones in the with the APG-63(V)2 AESA. While the radar being offered to Singapore is the improved (V)3, the improvements are mainly reliability-focused, and not capabilities-based. More info on the APG-63(V)2 -
Errrm.....planes do get a lot of stress flying up in the cold frigid thin air above....
Hence, composites or not, they need to be able to withstand variations in temperature, humidity.
Wat's good is a Eurofighter in wet wet wet England?
Ditto for French Rafale? Especially on the carriers?
Dun think all three manufacturers build a multi / swing / omni - role planes that melt in water?