Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
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Viper52: Well, according to some poster(s) here, you'd think that the Typhoon and Rafale are good for nothing except looking pretty at airshows. A rather hasty judgement considering these same poster(s) admitted never being close to either one before. And the rest of us are supposed to be "unqualified" and "Playstation Test Pilots"
well, i agree. let's not be hasty abt our judgement here. like i said, they've all done well up to this point and it is a tough choice. i appreciate the fact that some of u have preferences. but do tell us intelligently why. dun run amuck all over the place with outrageous claims and flights of fancy... it is insulting to yourself, and the rest of us.... -
You want to have a look in the Cockpit ?Originally posted by Old Bird:[b]quote: Old Bird
... wow, just to be able to get into the cockpit of the Typhoon for a look at the kind of instrumentation that they have. Heard that they were all coloured MFDs.
[b]
I made this pics during one of my several visits at the production line in Manching, Bavaria/Germany which is some 5 hours to drive away from my home at Vienna/Austria.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/357473/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/357474/L/
I personally like the Gripen cockpit a little bit more – but this is a normal amateur look on that. Gripen is build by the Swedish to be also flown by militia pilots and therefore has a very intuitive display arrangement. It gives you a goods eye view with a lot on information already in it – easy to understand.
http://www.airpower.at/news01/nfg0416_fighterlink/cockpit.htm
EF Typhoon has a much more expert cockpit – its pure tactics on all three displays and within the helmet all the time – you not get any information about your aircraft until there is anything wrong – except you want to have – own decision how to configure that.
Interesting part of the Typhoon MFDÂ’s are the button which are in fact also small displays and the signs on it can be programmed an organised any time an Air Force wants to do that.
I flew F-16, Gripen and Typhoon also in the Simulators.
F-16 is a little bit tricky to land, the Gripen and Typhoon aren’t – unbelievable easy to fly. Someone would only need a few lesions in MS Flightsim to start, fly and land those birds in the virtual environment. You get a landing symbol on the HUD which has to be steered to the landing point – and you get a bar symbolizes your power setting which has to be in the same height as the landing symbol on your landing point and you will end exactly there – on the right point with the right speed in the right angle – stupid simple.
I flew also the “Eurofighter Interim Training Device” – its an enhanced cockpit trainer with some tactics stuff against up to eight different targets that could partly be steered by the operator – fits in a normal living room – but not in my purse http://www.airpower.at/news03/0521_manching/.
Much more fun – terrific fun !!! – was the Swedish Air Force “Air Combat Simulation Centre” in Stockholm, a 8-man-in-the-loop tactics trainer – I could spend my vacations there – that thing is what you dream from !!!!
http://www.airpower.at/news01/0903_flsc/flsc_01.htm
But anyway – Austria decided to take the big stick – we go Typhoon – Supercruising Mach 1.2, climbing 350ft per Second and turning with 5G constant at Mach 1.5 – all this operational with full internal fuel and six a/a-missiles on it....and in the meanwhile you can even talk with it to say them what he else have to do for you : -)
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/496468/L/
Martin Rosenkranz, Editor
http://www.airpower.at -
I think there should be a rules and regulation regarding the use of the forum like in some other forums
1) No flame war post
2) Respect each others post
3) No name calling (Can cause a lot of misunderstanding, and can get you into trouble outside) -
Viper52, you seem very sore with the 'playstation pilots' phrase that I used.Originally posted by Viper52:Well, according to some poster(s) here, you'd think that the Typhoon and Rafale are good for nothing except looking pretty at airshows. A rather hasty judgement considering these same poster(s) admitted never being close to either one before. And the rest of us are supposed to be "unqualified" and "Playstation Test Pilots"
Composites are indeed poorer than metals in impact, but in terms of strength to weight ratio superior in almost all other mechanical properties, particularly in compression.
Did I hit a raw nerve?? My apologies, that was never the intent.
Being just a plain old aircraft mechanic, I am not very good with words sometimes so my original intent was carried across in a wrong manner.
Not very well educated by still trying to learn, that is why I come here to learn from the more knowledgeable gurus like you. -
Hahaa...sore? Hit a raw nerve? I've been on forums since 2000, so it'll take more than such remarks to bother me. Water off a ducks back mate!Originally posted by Old Bird:Viper52, you seem very sore with the 'playstation pilots' phrase that I used.
Did I hit a raw nerve?? My apologies, that was never the intent.
Being just a plain old aircraft mechanic, I am not very good with words sometimes so my original intent was carried across in a wrong manner.
Not very well educated by still trying to learn, that is why I come here to learn from the more knowledgeable gurus like you.
I just found that remarks like that really showed off one's true side and feelings, in this case yours, thats all!
And please, do not use you qualifications, or supposed lack of it to justify your words after you've been caught out
Learn? Yup, declaring theres only one choice and others contenders are just gimmicky no-hopers from the moment, and turning on other posters when they pointed out the flaws in your arguments shows a lifelong commitment to learning on your part. Riiiiggghht... -
Old Bord: Nah.... who can debate with you Viper52? You so well read lke scholar.
aw, c'mon now, old chap. i dun think that's what viper meant right? look, nobody thinks "this thread is too high tech for a lowly mechanic to post" and certainly, nobody wants u to stop posting. why dun u share some of your work experiences with a/c? for starters, what kind of a/c have u worked on?
You are the leading authority on this thread. I not so knowledegable like you.
I just an aircraft mechanic only. I use my hands to work.
The points I bring up are only from what I know and have encountered in the course of my work, just speaking from my limited experience only.
How to debate with aviation engineers like you??
But if you think this thread is too high tech for a lowly mechanic to post then I don't post. I don't know how to rebut or debate with people, I just repair aircraft only. -
What is POV?
Point Of View.... my dear... -
Oh there are rules, and they have been made as a sticky thread on the main page as well as the sgforums commandmentsOriginally posted by sbst275:I think there should be a rules and regulation regarding the use of the forum like in some other forums
As have been taught to me, respect is not given, it is earned.
1) No flame war post
[/quote]
If one wants to stay in a kitchen one has to learn to take the heat.
2) Respect each others post
[quote]
3) No name calling (Can cause a lot of misunderstanding, and can get you into trouble outside)
Theres a difference between calling a spade a spade and name calling. Besides, the name I used was only one of two I suggested. Are you suggesting what I said is true?
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QNH, agree with this part, I've been on carriers on their way back Stateside after a 6 month cruise to the MidEast, and the amount of patchwork, spotpriming and hasty repairs really shows the kind of harsh environment carrier aircraft operate in.Originally posted by qnh1011:yes it is true that carrier enviornment are harsher.... i seen badly corroded struts, salt grimed panels, blades etc.... absolutely terrible and in need of regular and frequent maintenance...
And even in the hangar deck when the ship is berthed at the naval base here, one still gets the impression of a very "salty" environment. -
Nah no worries... I will still continue to post dumb stuff once in a while. Might seem dumb to some people but may not to some who can read deeper into my posts. Some miss the trees for looking at the forest.Originally posted by qnh1011:aw, c'mon now, old chap. i dun think that's what viper meant right? look, nobody thinks "this thread is too high tech for a lowly mechanic to post" and certainly, nobody wants u to stop posting. why dun u share some of your work experiences with a/c? for starters, what kind of a/c have u worked on?
As for the types of aircraft I have worked on, lets just say I have quite a fair bit number of years in this line.
Lets just leave it at that, I am just an old bird that's all. -
Thank you Martin R. nice pictures, I visit Airpower occaisionally to get the latest news.
Its all gone a bit quiet regarding Typhoon in the news, perhaps they are saving something up for a Farnborough Airshow announcement.
Do you know of any rumours regarding Typhoons being considered for Qatar?, they are trying to get rid of Mirage 2000-5 (12 aircraft) to India and miy be looking at the Typhoon? (Much like Saudi Arabia).
Anyway thanks again for some good info.....
BTW in the last picture link you posted of the first Austrian pilot picture, whats the white thing on the Typhoons wing just under the '98 Luftwaffe 03' marking????
Cheers -
QATAR OFFERS MIRAGE FLEET TO INDIAOriginally posted by jwcook:Thank you Martin R. nice pictures, I visit Airpower occaisionally to get the latest news.
Do you know of any rumours regarding Typhoons being considered for Qatar?, they are trying to get rid of Mirage 2000-5 (12 aircraft) to India and miy be looking at the Typhoon? (Much like Saudi Arabia).
QATAR EXAMINES F-16, EUROPEAN FIGHTERS
Eurofighter Typhoon Landing at PLAB -
No offense, just a healthy discussion / food for thought....
I am no pilot but looking 45 deg downwards on the ground (frontal section) might be - not a problem for A2A combat but not sure for A2G combat.....Originally posted by jwcook:I was just rereading some threads and here's some more comments...
1. The restrictions to vision in the Typhoon due to the canards that some posters have refered to, is very very tiny, and not really a problem, as least as far as I could see!.
Rafale is about 50% composites, compared to Typhoon (80%).Originally posted by jwcook:4. The Rafale has a lot less composites than the Typhoon.
This comes from the famous Dassault quote: "If it looks good, it flies good".Originally posted by jwcook:As for Vipers52 comments re capabilities AND asthetics, I have to agree the Rafale looks better, however capabilities are another story!.
Its rather like French Poodles and British Bulldogs, the poodles look nicer, but which one would you like guarding you ;-).
I shall not go into a discussion on whether Rafale or Typhoon is well designed from an aerodynamic, purpose-built point as I am not qualified. There are persons out there in WAAF that have been asserting that Rafale's design is superior....
In that respect, it ain't about a French poodle vs. a British bulldog, but rather which is a well-designed hunting dog. BTW, MIW website article on Typhoon starts off by comparing it to a horse created by a committee.....i.e., a camel!!!
Could not put it better. From a project risk point of view, the Typhoon is the most risky because it is so early in its development.Originally posted by jwcook:The Typhoon is at a disadvantage because its early in its development, the Rafale is ahead in its development, Its much much better to say 'Rafale can do this now' rather than 'Typhoon will do that (better)in six months'.
I personally think it is too early to conclude that the Typhoon will be able to do better what the Rafale can do now in six months. There can be delays due to a host of problems ranging from diffiulties in ironing out the kinks, software problems, etc. --> growing pains. Then there is opeval. where the planes are put through the paces of real flying by oeprational pilots. This is where the rubber hits the road....
I sure do hope the evaluators (and I think they will) do a no-bulls assessment of the risk and capabilities of each NGF contenders. We have had enough of hype (and suffered a lot too) from the IT, and stockmarkets.
Throw in the political wrangling of the partners of workshare vs, costshare, vs. cost per plane, etc., change of government which results in a change of priorities (e.g., Germany torpedo-ed the project so as to save money for East-West integration).
That to me appears to be the main selling point of the Typhoon. However, I am not sure. You have different countries working on different parts of the plane. And I think there is little or no overlap / duplication. Would a scenario arise where say country X refuses to sell us the landing gear cos' of XYZ reasons?Originally posted by jwcook:The Typhoon has an advantage in the spares and logistics department, there's quite a few novel ways to support your fleet with the Typhoon, having Eurofighter hold some of your spares or only paying for the flight hours are a couple of new concepts.
I would therefore submit that the permuations of possibe lack of spares are more....i.e., we need to be friends to all.....as opposed to one or two countries.
That is true. But if we have access to French weapons and technology, and use it to integrate onto our existing fleet, including the JSF.......heh heh heh....Originally posted by jwcook:If Singapore is eventually going to get the JSF, then the Typhoon is quite a good choice, both the UK and Italy will be operating JSF/Typhoon fleets, they will have paid for the intergration and they must feel that both aircraft fulfill a different need/requirement/role.
The French weapons were rather under-estimated I must say....
The NGF is supposed to last 30-40 years? Hence, I would think the JSF would intially be pitched to replace the aging F-5s after 2010 (not necessarily one-to-one replacement in terms of the roles though).
Cheers -
I do the same on your websiteOriginally posted by jwcook:Thank you Martin R. nice pictures, I visit Airpower occaisionally to get the latest news.
I heard some news this week, but looks like they have arranged a new information policy to have some goodies in the back if there is a urgent need to counter some sort of foolish in the public.Originally posted by jwcook:Its all gone a bit quiet regarding Typhoon in the news, perhaps they are saving something up for a Farnborough Airshow announcement.
No, its new for me. But why not - this are the Typhoon years - US typs basing on 1970's frame and flight management tech, F/A-22 they can't export and for F-35 they need at least another 10 years to start with initial exports. It's now or never.Originally posted by jwcook:Do you know of any rumours regarding Typhoons being considered for Qatar?
That is some sort of sealing tape - the same you find where "PIRATE" should be mounted. But i saw it only on this IPA and not on a serial.Originally posted by jwcook:BTW in the last picture link you posted of the first Austrian pilot picture, whats the white thing on the Typhoons wing just under the '98 Luftwaffe 03' marking???? -
Singapore is evaluating the F-15, the Eurofighter and the Rafale
Augustine Anthuvan of Radio Singapore International spoke to Mr Nick Cook, Aviation Consultant with Jane's Defence Weekly in London. This is the transcript of the radio interview. -
How much did that cost?Originally posted by Martin R.:Much more fun – terrific fun !!! – was the Swedish Air Force “Air Combat Simulation Centre” in Stockholm, a 8-man-in-the-loop tactics trainer – I could spend my vacations there – that thing is what you dream from !!!!
http://www.airpower.at/news01/0903_flsc/flsc_01.htm
I can't read swedish, but I can comment from the pictures.
Front only projector of 40deg FOV? Can't check six. Yucks.
GCI ladies are cute though. Do air force personnel in sweden wear the same uniform as army? No 'office' attire (i.e. No.3 uniform)?
The pictures of the aircraft zooming above the clouds (and firing that meteor) are most certainly prerendered...
Can't say much about the simulator cockpit ... all dark and all that.
Swedish pilots certainly aren't a picky lot. -
Hello - this Story is in "German".Originally posted by RussianPower:How much did that cost?
I can't read swedish, but I can comment from the pictures.
Front only projector of 40deg FOV? Can't check six. Yucks.
GCI ladies are cute though. Do air force personnel in sweden wear the same uniform as army? No 'office' attire (i.e. No.3 uniform)?
The pictures of the aircraft zooming above the clouds (and firing that meteor) are most certainly prerendered...
Can't say much about the simulator cockpit ... all dark and all that.
Swedish pilots certainly aren't a picky lot.
Use babelfish:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
Put in this URL
http://www.airpower.at/news01/0903_flsc/flsc_01.htm
and choose German to English
#########
The Centers hardware had costs 20 mil. Swedish Crowns the Software adittional 40 mil. Swedish Crowns
One year of Operating cost about 50 mil. Swedish Crowns, including some 10-20 mil. for Investments.
One week of training there with a group of 12 pilots costs about 1 mil Swedish Crowns. ( 100 Swedish Crown = USD 13,5)
Pictures i used are mostly from a provided info-disk. We where not allowed to make pictures there. The Gripen-Meteor-pic is out of a folder, not out of this simulator.
The only thing i was able to photograph (and allowed to take away in the given size) was from the info-wall of the operators desk:
Here he have a goods eye view and can look at any of the pilots instruments to see what information for his decission he had at any moment of the fight.
Cockpits are made purely with touch-screens and look like a real Gripen Cockpit - it will ever stay in this look, but the performances (power, missiles, radar) of the simulated aircraft can be altered to simulate F-16, Su-27 or whatever.
Regarding "Can't check six" - this is a simulator mainly concentrating on BVR-battles and the usage of the Gripen's advanced datalink - not WVR - after entering WVR the simulation will be stopped and the pilots can analyse there long range tactics in use of datalink and medium range missiles. -
No not that sealing tape, its on the main wing root behind the intakes directly under the big '03' serial number... looks like a white pipe!!!.Originally posted by Martin R.:That is some sort of sealing tape - the same you find where "PIRATE" should be mounted. But i saw it only on this IPA and not on a serial.
Cheers -
Originally posted by southpark2000:
One of the contracted points in the Eurofighter program is no single nation can veto the sale or support of the Typhoon, its one of the reasons that the EJ200 was created over using the F404, and the ECR-90/Captor was developed over the IIRC US APG 65? series due to concerns of export restrictions, the reason why the ASRAAM was chosen and why the Meteor is being developed is also to stop any naughtyness re arms sales...
That to me appears to be the main selling point of the Typhoon. However, I am not sure. You have different countries working on different parts of the plane. And I think there is little or no overlap / duplication. Would a scenario arise where say country X refuses to sell us the landing gear cos' of XYZ reasons?
I would therefore submit that the permuations of possibe lack of spares are more....i.e., we need to be friends to all.....as opposed to one or two countries.
The export restrictions when US gear is used in a system has sometimes been used to disadvantage those manufactures, just the rough and tumble of international arms sales I guess.
Cheers -
Trust me its the same sort of tape.Originally posted by jwcook:No not that sealing tape, its on the main wing root behind the intakes directly under the big '03' serial number... looks like a white pipe!!!.
Cheers
Here you have the same plane on the same day from another angle:
But look at this (look at where the Brakechute should be deploying):
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/images/limage_typhoon_sing_01.jpg
Looks like both RAF Birds wearing a set of DASS(!) on there way to Singapur. -
Thanks for clearing that up, my main concern over this issue is the ability of the US to restrict arms available to the Typhoon in the intervening years between export and availablilty of the Meteor. During these years Typhoon would be restricted to AMRAAM, which as you may know, Singapore faced lots of issues in acquiring previously.Originally posted by jwcook:One of the contracted points in the Eurofighter program is no single nation can veto the sale or support of the Typhoon, its one of the reasons that the EJ200 was created over using the F404, and the ECR-90/Captor was developed over the IIRC US APG 65? series due to concerns of export restrictions, the reason why the ASRAAM was chosen and why the Meteor is being developed is also to stop any naughtyness re arms sales...
The export restrictions when US gear is used in a system has sometimes been used to disadvantage those manufactures, just the rough and tumble of international arms sales I guess.
Still, it was a damned good idea to wean yourselves off dependence on the US for equipment and arms exports. -
Can I clarify that such a scenario WILL NOT HAPPEN.Originally posted by jwcook:One of the contracted points in the Eurofighter program is no single nation can veto the sale or support of the Typhoon, its one of the reasons that the EJ200 was created over using the F404, and the ECR-90/Captor was developed over the IIRC US APG 65? series due to concerns of export restrictions, the reason why the ASRAAM was chosen and why the Meteor is being developed is also to stop any naughtyness re arms sales...
The export restrictions when US gear is used in a system has sometimes been used to disadvantage those manufactures, just the rough and tumble of international arms sales I guess.
Cheers
Spain (for example only) hates us for some reason for another (maybe we caned one of the Spaniards). For that, they refuse to sell us a Typhoon landing gear (assume they make them).
If so, then okay. I am less concerned about US' components in the Typhoon as I think the European content is almost 100%..... -
hello !
Well as there are a lot of typhoon pictures in this long thread, I think, may be some recent rafale picture would be welcome
Here are 2 pics of the rafale M4 taken 3 weeks ago at "Le Bourget" aerospace museum for the 70th anniversary of the french air force.
At the same time the Singaporian engineers were at the Landivisiau air base to study the beast
I hope you like them -
Thanks Martin for clearing that up, what would the world do without duct tape!.
Nice pictures of the Rafale Kovy!!!.
southpark2000, the US does supply lots of equipment for the Typhoon, IIRC the displays and certain computing parts spring to mind, its really is an international program!.
I'm looking forward to seeing Rafales and Typhoons in exercises together!, it will provide great pictures and then I'll be looking to see which group of pilots are smiling broadest when they land!!:-)
cheers -
Probably undergoing some air test.Originally posted by jwcook:No not that sealing tape, its on the main wing root behind the intakes directly under the big '03' serial number... looks like a white pipe!!!.
Cheers
