Singapore's Next Generation Fighter
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Haha. No offense. Just my 2cents on that 2 words, "cost effective."Originally posted by foga:we dun really buy stuffs because they are combat proven.
we buy stuffs that are cost effective.
What exactly is cost effective in terms of military or warfighting abiliites? What defines it?
If you talk about an Apache worth USD$14.5million, taking out a $1million dollar T-72 equivalent with a $58,000 missile. It would still be cost effective. THe cost of a T-72 penetrating and the damage that it can possibly do to strategic objectives would be much more than the cost of an Apache. -
Woh! Is there a blue moon out tonight? Shotgun is posting again!
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Hahah, nothing to do. Been quite busy with work u see.
10 months more to ORD. Wahahaha. -
Pentagon Contract Announcement
AIM-120 Missiles for Singapore (Apr. 15)
Raytheon Missile Systems, Tucson Ariz., is being awarded a $25,424,634 firm fixed price contract modification.
This action Exercise Option of 50 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles Air Intercept Missile (AIM)-120 C5 (FMS) missiles, 1 Lot Spares, 1 Lot software Configuration Management, 1 Lot Recontainerization.
This effort supports foreign military sales to Singapore. Total funds have been obligated.
Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (F08635-03-C-0031, P0001
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Radar plays large role in RSAF buy
by Reuben F. Johnson
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_04/d3_radarp20.html
An added dimension to the Singapore New-Generation Fighter competition is the greater than normal emphasis played by the radars fitted to the final three competing aircraft-the Dassault Rafale, the Boeing F-15T and the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Because of increased demands for performance, multirole capability and higher levels of reliability almost every major new fighter program in the world now is either already equipped with or has the near-term possibility to be retrofitted with an active electronically scanning array (AESA). Lockheed MartinÂ’s F-16 Block 60, F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and the F/A-22 are all configured from day one with AESA sets developed by Northrop Grumman. BoeingÂ’s F/A-18E/F and the F-15 are both set to receive retrofits of AESA radars from Raytheon, and the Rafale is scheduled to have its current Thales RBE2 radar set, which currently employs a passive electronically scanning array, upgraded to an AESA variant once all the aircraft in service have all been modernized to the F3 configuration.
It is the situation with the latter two aircraft that is of prime significance to the Singapore competition. Thales has proposed its RBE2 AESA for the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF). The Thales radar is close to being available for deployment, so depending on delivery schedules, Thales could deliver an AESA set on the second batch of aircraft to be delivered under the proposed contract schedule, and then the initial batch could be retrofitted to the AESA configuration.
Raytheon is offering an AESA version of the F-15’s radar, which would be the AN/APG-63(V)3. The Typhoon’s developmental program had called for the aircraft to receive its own AESA under Thales-BAE Systems joint development–the Airborne Multirole Solid State Active Array Radar (AMSAR) program–to replace its current BAE Systems ECR-90 Captor model, but this would not be earlier than 2010 and more realistic dates for a delivery would most likely be beyond this timeline.
Complicating the picture for the Typhoon are the consistent suggestions that there will be no Tranche 3 production run of the aircraft and that purchases of the aircraft would be truncated once the second batch is delivered, leaving the AESA development schedule as a question mark.
Thales has a model of the RBE2 AESA at the Dassault stand (No. A719), and Raytheon has a presentation of the APG-63 (V)3 on display (Stand No. A1412). RaytheonÂ’s model is based on the AN/APG-63(V)2 that was originally developed in 1999 under a formerly secret program for 18 U.S. Air Force F-15s based at Elmendorf AFB in Alaska. The newer (V)3 version that could be proposed for the RSAF has a redesigned antenna composed of a more advanced design of transmit/receive (T/R) modules.
But as much as both firms are vying for the Singapore contract, they also have to follow the lead of their customers back home. Raytheon, which expects to sell more than 160 F-15 radar retrofits to the USAF, did not bring a model of its AN/APG-63(V)3 design to Singapore as it was committed to the Air Force Association show in Orlando, Florida. The 20 aircraft for the RSAF are not enough of an order to justify the development cost otherwise.
Thales expects to either retrofit or deliver the entire 290-plus Rafales that are planned for production RBE2 AESA. However, even with delays in an order from the French air force, Thales have said that it could provide the AESA to the RSAF ahead of the timeline for its domestic customer.
For its part, Thales officials stress that to step up from the passive to the active model as they propose for the Rafale is much less complicated than what Raytheon proposes for the F-15. “Our upgrade is a replacement of the passive array with an active one plus some software and additional component swap-outs,” said a Thales representative. “The RBE2 radar was originally designed to eventually be upgraded to an AESA model so this antenna switch-out is more or less a plug and play proposition.”
Raytheon makes nearly identical claims about the AN/APG-63(V)3 stating that is mostly an antenna replacement and that the back end of the radar set remains much the same. “What has made the difference in the design of the (V)3 variant versus the previous (V)2 model has been the use of next-generation tiles in the T/R modules, a benefit that we enjoyed from the crossover of the technology we developed on the AN/APG-79 for the F/A-18E/F. This makes the (V)3 about 240 pounds lighter than the previous generation model,” stated one designer.
Although the (V)3 is not yet flying on an operational aircraft, Raytheon has the experience of the earlier generation (V)2 model on the F-15s flying now and that its USAF customer is quite pleased with the (V)2 variant. The (V)2 is such an improvement over the previous (V)1 mechanical array that “pilots fight for their turn to get into the cockpit,” said one Raytheon designer.
The Thales RBE2 AESA that would be supplied to the RSAF has been flying for more than 10 months and now it has been demonstrated for some senior RSAF officials. Thales enjoys an additional advantage in that as the sole source for the aircraftÂ’s entire radar, avionics and electronic warfare suite, the entire internal systems infrastructure is one integrated, open-architecture package. Future avionics upgrades or integration of new weapons can be accomplished with a minimum of time and expense.
The Singapore competition is really a look into the future in that the AESA radar is now the new cost of admission for a fighter trying to succeed in most export markets. A few years ago, the main question that customers wanted answered was, “Can I have an active-homing radar missile” (i.e., Raytheon’s AIM-120 AMRAAM or a European analog). Those sellers who said “no” were automatically at a disadvantage. Now in addition the new standard inquiry from a prospective customer is going to be, “How soon can I have an AESA?” -
Originally posted by Viper52:
If this article is accurrate and representitve of RSAF NGF requirements, then can we start singing and dancing... my wish might just come true... Hello Mica! Scalp, etc....
[b]Radar plays large role in RSAF buy
by Reuben F. Johnson
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_04/d3_radarp20.html
[snip]
The Singapore competition is really a look into the future in that the AESA radar is now the new cost of admission for a fighter trying to succeed in most export markets. A few years ago, the main question that customers wanted answered was, “Can I have an active-homing radar missile” (i.e., Raytheon’s AIM-120 AMRAAM or a European analog). Those sellers who said “no” were automatically at a disadvantage. Now in addition the new standard inquiry from a prospective customer is going to be, “How soon can I have an AESA?”
[/b] -
thanks for that interesting article!
hmm for a time i thought Rafale was going to use the AMSAR! perhaps another piece of Eurofighter Inc. disinformation.
any idea how many T/R elements the RBE2 AESA will have?
my guess is around 1000.
saw the mockup at AA2004... but didnt manage to pick up any more info.
as a proud singaporean... im no less happy than joe black is!! yeah! this makes us the first in southeast asia to have AESA, and only 2nd in all asia after UAE's f-16blk60s. -
Hell yeah! I would really really look forward to the day when the Rafale graces Singapore's skies!Originally posted by Joe Black:If this article is accurrate and representitve of RSAF NGF requirements, then can we start singing and dancing... my wish might just come true... Hello Mica! Scalp, etc.... -
The F-15K may be equipped with the AN/APG-63(v)1 initially but they can upgrade to an AESA system.
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Technically its not disinformation, the AMSAR has always been planned for Tranche 3, but with the very existence Tranche 3 being called into question, so does AMSAR itself.Originally posted by wd1:thanks for that interesting article!
hmm for a time i thought Rafale was going to use the AMSAR! perhaps another piece of Eurofighter Inc. disinformation.
Its more an indictment of how far the Typhoon programme has been derailed by disagreements, lack of budget and slippage in the whole development program. -
From any angle (except politically), I see the that Rafale makes the most sense to fulfil the NGF role. It is probably the best platform to deal with Super Bugs, and the Sukhoi 27s, 30s and their derivatives which seem to be the favourite aircraft in the region. Rafale will have the edge in both WVR and BVR fight, not to mention, its degree of stealtiness is second to none in the 3 shortlisted aircrafts. F-15 by far has the worst RCS.
Furthermore, having the source code (with open architecture) will play a big part in Singapore being to upgrade the Rafale when needed to. I work in the software industry and knows how important open system architecture is in terms of integrating different type of systems together. Singapore will be able to integrate its current datalink (Israeli origin and not Link 16) into the Rafale rather easily. Furthermore, I also hope that having source code or part of it for the ECM/ESM system means that Singapore will have the ability to update the electronic threat library inside Rafale. Rafale's spectrum ESM system can also act as SIGINT which is in fact a force multiplier.
Technically, I just can't see how F15 is going to better Rafale. Period. -
having been involved with the french on a number of weapons and platforms contracts, from my own personal experience they are the worst to deal with as far as contract obligation, and for making operational promises which are often unfounded.
they've shafted their clients in nearly every major recent project.
you'd want to see proof of capability before signing for anything. -
sure the french did pangseh the israelis back in the 60s with the mirage V, but if they were really all that unreliable we would see many pissed off indians , taiwanese, egyptians, peruvians, UAE folks (all mirage 2000 users); also aussies, swiss and south africans who were or are still major users of french stuff. hell what abt our very own SAF, with our super pumas, ecureuils, fennecs, mistrals, amx13s and 10s, and most recently delta frigates? if we'd been shafted before i dont think we'd have been stupid enough to have bought so much stuff from france.Originally posted by gf0012-aust:having been involved with the french on a number of weapons and platforms contracts, from my own personal experience they are the worst to deal with as far as contract obligation, and for making operational promises which are often unfounded.
they've shafted their clients in nearly every major recent project.
you'd want to see proof of capability before signing for anything. -
well, is a good sign that we don't rely so much from the uncle sam.....Originally posted by wd1:sure the french did pangseh the israelis back in the 60s with the mirage V, but if they were really all that unreliable we would see many pissed off indians , taiwanese, egyptians, peruvians, UAE folks (all mirage 2000 users); also aussies, swiss and south africans who were or are still major users of french stuff. hell what abt our very own SAF, with our super pumas, ecureuils, fennecs, mistrals, amx13s and 10s, and most recently delta frigates? if we'd been shafted before i dont think we'd have been stupid enough to have bought so much stuff from france. -
The Taiwanese said that the French (Dassualt) provided the better support than Lockheed for their Mirages, contrary to your experience. The French were quite to rectify a lot of unexpected issues due to the humidity, like corrosion of certain parts of the plane, air conditioning, etc. French also provided a lot of technical and skill transfers to the Taiwanese support and maintenance crew. I read this from one of the Air Force magazine.Originally posted by gf0012-aust:having been involved with the french on a number of weapons and platforms contracts, from my own personal experience they are the worst to deal with as far as contract obligation, and for making operational promises which are often unfounded.
they've shafted their clients in nearly every major recent project.
you'd want to see proof of capability before signing for anything. -
the magazinr is it air forces monthly? last yr they got 1 article on ROC Miage 2000-5Originally posted by Joe Black:The Taiwanese said that the French (Dassualt) provided the better support than Lockheed for their Mirages, contrary to your experience. The French were quite to rectify a lot of unexpected issues due to the humidity, like corrosion of certain parts of the plane, air conditioning, etc. French also provided a lot of technical and skill transfers to the Taiwanese support and maintenance crew. I read this from one of the Air Force magazine. -
I think you could be right about the magazine being the AIr Force Monthly. This is one magazine I read quite frequently, and yes, it was an article about ROC AF's Mirage 2000-5.Originally posted by duotiga83:the magazinr is it air forces monthly? last yr they got 1 article on ROC Miage 2000-5
The Taiwanese also have high confidence in their Mirages to deal with the Su-30s across the Strait. In fact Mirage 2000-5s are their air-superiority fighters that they rely on rather than their Block 20 Vipers. -
AMSAR is not a radar but a technology program to further improve the performances of AESA radars using new MMICS and stuff... But AMSAR will not give birth to a new AESA radar before quite many years, unless the Typhoon consortium suddenly decides that CAPTOR no longer does the job but it is unlikely.Originally posted by wd1:thanks for that interesting article!
hmm for a time i thought Rafale was going to use the AMSAR! perhaps another piece of Eurofighter Inc. disinformation.
any idea how many T/R elements the RBE2 AESA will have?
my guess is around 1000.
saw the mockup at AA2004... but didnt manage to pick up any more info.
So in order to be able to compete with the APG-79 and to some extent to the AESA version of the APG-63 Thales has developped internally and with its own money a version of the RBE2 with an active antenna. And your guess is correct, this RBE2 "AESA" will have about 1,000 T/R elements. -
It's a bit OT but I read recently that the Koreans have rejected the active antenna for their F-15K after all. No idea what was the reason. But for the Singapore NGF competition I am sure Boeing is proposing the active antenna.
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If my memory is not wrong,they want their F-15 to have the same compatitbility as the USAF F-15C/E so as to have the same maintainance lvlOriginally posted by Viking1:It's a bit OT but I read recently that the Koreans have rejected the active antenna for their F-15K after all. No idea what was the reason. But for the Singapore NGF competition I am sure Boeing is proposing the active antenna. -
Okay, the Rafale.....
20 aircraft at about ? $ million each, with Mica, Scalp, Exocet, etc. -
I think is around $75 us mil
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Helicopter deliveries delayed but contract for F/A-18s could still go ahead next year
Malaysia has postponed taking delivery of 10 Mil Mi-171 military search-and-rescue helicopters as a result of budgetary constraints although special cases may still be made for key projects to acquire airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) and multirole fighter aircraft.
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Hmmm.....with all forumers betting on either of the three, I can't help but think it might just be possible that RSAF might not award a contract afterall....
1. Falling govt revenue - need to curb spending
2. All three, while superior in their own right, are compromises to what might appear in the horizon. F-15 is old, Typhoon and Rafale have problems back home.
A plausible scenario is for RSAF to delay the decomissioning of A4s, increase orders for F-16 (incl. upgrading them) and wait out till the JSF / UCAVs come about.
Southpark
The Dude -
well, despite falling govt revenue, the defence budget has increased so the purchase will go ahead the only question is when.
delaying he decommissioning of the A-4s is not possible..... this old workhorse has little airframe time left, and what if the JSF is delayed, then we have no NGFs nor do we have JSF.... worst still we then have no A-4s..... do need really need to depend of F-16s and F-5s?